Skip to comments.Stephen Moore nukes MSNBC Chris Hayes on rich liberals wanting to pay higher taxes (7/8/12)
Posted on 07/11/2012 7:02:12 AM PDT by sickoflibs
Chris Hayes invites Stephen Moore on his show July 8, 2012 to set him up on Romney taking advantage of tax laws and so Moore nukes him on how rich hypocritical libs like Buffet claim that being patriotic is paying more taxes when they themselves hide under every loophole they can find to avoid paying more taxes. Moore stays on it and Hayes eventually gives up. MSNBC is NOT posting this part of the show.
HAYES: I want to bring in quickly, Stephen Moore, senior economics
writer for the “Wall Street Journal” editorial board. Former president of
Club for Growth.
It`s great to have you, Stephen. Thank you so much.
STEPHEN MOORE, WALL STREET JOURNAL: Good morning.
HAYES: We talk about the tax avoidance industry, things like
incorporating the Caymans or Bermuda, or corporations that are called tax
blockers that you set up so you can move assets through, do you think
there`s anything morally questionable in engaging in that kind of behavior?
Just matter of first principals before we get into the details.
MOORE: As long as it`s not illegal. I don`t think anyone is making
the allegation that Mitt Romney made illegal moves to illegally pay his
I mean, I just think this whole discussion — look, the United States
should be the tax haven country. We were founded as a country where people
could come to pay less taxes and I think it`s an indictment of our current
tax system that rates have gotten so high that we`ve become so
HAYES: Rates have gotten lower.
MOORE: Rates have gone up and, in fact, you know, we`re going to go
up, way up next year if the tax bottom goes up.
My point is, look, when you talk about this patriotic duty to raise
taxes, I turn this around on all of you and say — wait a minute, all these
liberals are running around the country, rich liberals saying, we want to
pay more taxes, we want to pay more, and yet you look at the tax returns,
none of them have paid more taxes than they owe.
So, why are you indicting Mitt Romney for not paying more taxes than
he owes when all these liberals say they don`t do that? Everybody from
Warren Buffett to all these left-wing groups that say we have to raise
taxes on rich people.
.HAYES: First of all, those people aren`t running for president.
MOORE: No, that`s true.
HAYES: Second of all, they`re — there`s a distinction here between
what tax policy is and individual tax compliance and even with individual
MOORE: Chris, you have to agree, though, Chris, they`re hypocrites.
If they say they want to pay more taxes and they don`t, that`s
HAYES: No, I think that`s hypocritical. I think we actually
disagree on this. It`s like the Al Gore riding in planes issue, right? I
mean, the point is that there`s something called social policy. Social
policy is something you want to put into social contract.
The reason you want to put in social contract is because it has the
force of coercive law. The force of coercive law is the way that we bind
each other in a democratic governance and taxes are that.
MOORE: Chris, that`s not true. People — look, we have a military
of the people who are patriotic. They don`t — they don`t join the
military because they`re compelled to do so. They do it because they think
it`s their patriotic duty.
Similarly, liberals say they think it`s their patriotic duty to pay
more taxes but they don`t do it. So, to me, that is an act of hypocrisy.
If all the liberals who say they want to pay more taxes do so, we could
probably reduce this deficit by a lot.
HAYES: You know that is a silly and enumerant (ph) argument.
MOORE: No, it`s not.
HAYES: Of course, it is.
MOORE: Why would Warren Buffett pay more taxes if he says he wants
HAYES: You think we`re going to reduce the deficit on Warren Buffett
having some kind —
MOORE: Liberals who say we can reduce the deficit by taxing rich
HAYES: But taxation is fundamentally not a voluntary undertaking.
You can`t say —
MOORE: That`s not true. Chris, that is not true on the bottom line
of your tax form, it says if you want to pay more taxes and reduce the
deficit, you can do so. Liberals don`t do it.
HAYES: Getting back to Mitt —
MOORE: The most incredibly hypocritical things.
HAYES: Warren Buffett is not running for president and you want to
castigate unnamed liberals, right? We do have a tax return for the
president. We have tax return for the president for many years. We don`t
have the tax returns for Mitt Romney.
And in the course of compliance, I think there is a moral question
here about is it at all shameful or indefensible if you use every single
possible loophole, every single tax avoidance strategy, is that just a
squarely praiseworthy thing?
MOORE: You know, I hate the tax code. I`m a flat tax guy.
Literally, Chris, I think we should get rid of every single deduction and
loophole and tax carve out in the system
Link to video :
Stephen Moore nukes MSNBC Chris Hayes on rich liberals wanting to pay higher taxes from 7/8/12(link to video )
Normally Hayes invites some wimpy RINO on like Steele who can’t defend a single Republican position but this time he made the mistake of inviting Stephen Moore on and Moore was ready for him.
What people legally do with their own money is nobody else’s business.
Romney and Obama are not ‘people’ ,they are POTUS candidates in an election so this is fair (or at least expected) game.
But have you noticed that Obama campaign is constantly making personal character attacks on Romney and neither Romney or the Rove type independent groups are returning fire? In fact the Obama campaign keeps demanding Romneys tax returns, but no national Republican has the guts to reply demanding Obama for documents to his past.
It’s like deja vu all over again! -Yogi
“Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as
possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the
treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one’s taxes.
Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister
in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone
does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any
public duty to pay more than the law demands.”
Quote by: Judge Learned Hand
(1872-1961), Judge, U. S. Court of Appeals
Source: in the case of Gregory v. Helvering 69 F.2d 809, 810 (2d Cir. 1934), aff’d, 293 U.S. 465, 55 S.Ct. 266, 79 L.Ed. 596 (1935
Moore’s point here is that the rich libs like Buffet claim that paying more taxes is patriotic yet they themselves hide under every loophole.
How about if a Republican like Pat Robertson took his daughter to an abortion clinic while calling for it to be outlawed? Would Hayes make the same arguments in his favor?
If only Romney would stop using his “Mr. Rogers” style campaign speeches and use the style of Stephen Moore.
Romney was pretty aggressive (and effective) attacking the conservatives in the primary but with Obama he seems scared to be critical of him, of Obama.
I suspect it is because he is a liberal himself.
For whatever reason Romney is campaigning to lose.
It is in the RINO DNA: always lose to the far left Democrat.
McCain obeyed, and Romney is doing his Mr. Rogers best to also lose to Obama.
Romney is so out of touch with REALITY that his paint-drying campaign speeches only point is to describe how bad Obama is.
WE KNOW how bad Obama is!
What we want to know is which 3 of Romneys 59 points are going to REVERSE Obamanation?
Romney is the most DUMPABLE Primary Winner going against the worst Incumbent - - - and the polls call it correctly: THEY ARE TIED!
Give it to us straight Romney, or get out of the way!
BTW Romney, it just takes the delegates First Ballot ABSTAIN vote to DUMP you!
Tick-Tock - - -
Buffet just announced a 2 billion dollar giveaway to charity.
If the federal government is so great, why didn’t he give the money to the government?
Here he has a choice to put his money where he believes it will do the most good, and he chooses the private sector.
While at the same time urging higher taxes for all.
It seems so.
The plan is to have the independent groups like Rove’s Crossroads do all the dirty work for Romney but so far Obama has been able to keep Romney's positives (polls) below his own by using the personal attacks.
The other plan is to have the bad economy carry the day for Romney, good luck there.
” - - - The other plan is to have the bad economy carry the day for Romney, good luck there.”
That may be the best solution of Dictator “You Lie” Obama.
“You Lie” has been able to not take responsibility for any negative thing so far, usually blaming Bush.
Maybe asking the Bush tax cuts to get Obama re-elected will cancel some of Bush’s sins of omission?
Right now Obama is sitting in the catbird seat on raising taxes on small businesses to reduce the number of jobs, Jobs, JOBS that were lost in the first place by Bush, Bush, BUSH!
BTW, don’t worry about the numbers as Obama will have them revised, right after he gets re-elected. Well, that is what he said - - - .
Take a good, long look at that statement. A liberal who tells you he's really after revenue is a liar. He's after power.
Great find, sick.
Liberals are such hypocrites...
MSNBC won't run this? They're sooooooooo open minded to people with different ideas... /s
Crickets have been chirping regarding Denise Rich renouncing her citizenship over US taxes.
I also believe that our gov’t is facing some serious issues from within - in regards to the Muslim Brotherhood and Al-Qaeda, not to mention the Sinaloa Cartel which Obama has armed and which we know already have a HUGE network within the US (and have for a long, long time).
I wonder if the GOP is trying to hide from the rest of the nation how bad it really is, and how much risk we are really in from these “foreign” interests and their relationship with Obama? Even if these people's intentions are good - to try to maintain some facade of stability - it will ONLY end badly (and, I'm not convinced that their intentions ARE good, either).
I also wouldn't doubt for a millisecond that our nation as a whole has been threatened with serious attacks from interests like Russia and China - those paying attention know they HAVE publicly threatened us (like China threatening the economic war and no-one connecting the dots with the world's economic upheaval, and Russia's threats regarding missile defense). If we're hearing those threats in the media, what threats have been stated behind the scenes, or through our CIA agents, etc...?
I just wish & pray that these idiots in high places weren't such wimps. It's like Republicans all of a sudden believe in some policy of appeasement, like that's ever going to prevent anything bad from happening.
We need a Churchill, not a church mouse!
Hayes sees himself as an intellectual progressive as is the lib guests he invites on. He like Matthews preaches that Democracy is about the masses using their vote to confront ‘the powerful’ (businesses, the rich or even the government) to get the government to tax and invest(spend) more.
He has no objections to Dems running deficits, he has said so many times.
Raising taxes on 'the rich' which generates some but not much revenue but is wanted/needed as the chaser for future tax increases on you and me, so it bothers us less. Look at Maryland.
Friggin idiot. The tax code is set by Congress and guess what the profession of many if not most Congressmen was at one point in their lives? They were attorneys.
Congress sets the rules and penalties for minimum taxes, maximum taxes, obligation reductions, etc.
Romney did nothing wrong morally, legally or lawfully.
In fact, IIRC Bill Clinton has accounts in Haiti.
What are they, then--Droids?
Let's say I lost my job, and then I lost my house too because I dont have a job. Happened to millions of Americans probably the past few years.
So now Romney comes along, mega-rich guy who inherited money from Dad. (he reminds me of Kerry) And Obama creates this image of him sending his money out of the country to avoid paying taxes all the while having lower capital gains rates than I did (income tax rates) before I got canned. Oh, and he wants to cut his OWN taxes further while saying we cant afford my medicare and Obama-care anymore.
Now I am hopping mad, “Super rich greedy #%@#$^& trying to screw little guys like me. That does it, I am voting for Obama even if the economy sucks, At least makes believe he cares about me”
That is Obama’s plan anyways
Normally Hayes invites some wimpy RINO on like Steele who cant defend a single Republican position
Will the GOP ever stop putting such RINOs in top positions?
I’m assuming you are explaining the other sides position and tactic.
However, Romney’s wealth largely came from the sweat of his own brow.
IF “ - - - Romneys wealth largely came from the sweat of his own brow - - - ,” THEN where did Obama’s wealth come from?
Multi-Millionaire Obama is fond of saying “rich guys like me.”
Will the Liberal Agenda Media try to shed the light of truth on the origin of Obama’s wealth?
Saying you will do something. And doing something. Are two different things. Just be cause a leftist aka progressives chants they will pay more taxes. Does not mean they will pay more taxes.
And according to the IRS, Buffet and his companies are WAY behind, and owe a lot of money to the government, which Buffet's lawyers are fighting tooth and nail.
Why doesn't Buffet just say, "I'll be patriotic and pay the government what it says I owe."
You kidding me? BO wrote a best selling book of fiction
For unknown reasons, our sorry Congress has stopped being a check and balance on themselves, and the two other branches of Government.
The operational shadow US Federal Government is The Regulation Nation.
Congress passes a bill, pOTUS signs it into law, and then the Regulators write, enforce and expand it to the whim of Regulation Nation.
Since Traitor John Roberts has joined this shadow Federal Government, none of the cowardly RINOs have dared to stick their necks above the sewage line of Obamanation.
Your observation about Churchill is a good one, except the strong leader of the day is to much of a coward to stick his/her neck out.
We must change the political environment so that our magic leader will have the courage to emerge to lead us sheep.
Obama is just one Marxist Dictator, and we are 300+ MILLION sheep, just milling around waiting for a magic leader to arise.
There will not be a magic leader until us 300 + MILLION sheep demand that our precious, enslaving, vote-buying, “Entitlements” be cut 10 % per year until Entitlements can be sold off to private charities.
As long as Americans love to have the proud Welfare Eagle flying over their mailbox, we will have The Regulation Nation Shadow Federal Government protecting the vote-buying power of The Federal Welfare State.
This system is the one we, as a Nation, have voted for over 80 years, and it will not change unless we demand an end to it.
The Liberal Wing of the Republican Party is the Republicans In Name Only, or RINO Wing. Back in the day, they were called The Rockefeller Republicans.
Without these RINOs who have made a career of caving in to the Democrats, we would not have our Regulations and Predatory Welfare.
This National Election is all about fear of Obama.
Nothing much will change if Romney is elected as to decreasing Regulation Nation or The Welfare State, as the GOP Elite have made sure that they endorsed the most left-wing guy willing to run for POTUS.
Ponder this, and come join us as we take over the Republican Party and run CONSERVATIVE Candidates in 2114, and 2016.
Or, just keep doing the frog-paddle in the ever hotter pot of water on the front burner of the Forever United State Of Free Welfare for All.
When they say :”I want to be FORCED to pay more taxes”
they REALLY mean
“I want YOU to be FORCED to pay more taxes”
Easy code to crack.
Sutoro? How many variations of the spelling of their names are out there?
A few things stand out here. One is the date of taxes(1979 & 1980). Isn’t this when the foreign student Obama was attemding Occidental? The taxes were not levy until 1985 and they were given 10 years(until 1995) to refile. This doesn’t make any sense. Still ties in with Obama’s college. Would love to see those tax returns. Tax fraud if she was declaring Obama while he was a “foreign student”. Did they ever pay the Tax? Haven’t seen anything as yet.
wow that was a lot of money back in 80
If nothing else, we have a new spelling of Ann’s last name (Sutoro) to look up.
progressives want to make it a 'social' crime to intentionally follow the tax law...
progressive/commie lawyers using the codebook to smear, as well as bludgeon anyone who doesnt parrot their crap, while simultaneously breaking the same laws at will for the accumulation of their own wealth and power...
I am supposed to be outraged at what Mitt Romney does with HIS money....
I am supposed to be happier than a pig in $hit at what Obama does with MY money.
In the game of elections anything that works is fair game and we know Republicans will also try anything that they think will work. I dont do “Republicans are Holier than thou” acts.
Going after Romney personally for paying a lower capital gains rate than many voters who make much less than him is being bundled by Dems with the Republican campaign positions he takes, lowering taxes, cutting spending to convince voters that he puts the rich (like him) over them. Does it work? Time will tell.
I do know I don't see Romney using anything personal against Obama in a similar way. Obama demands Romney's tax returns be made public. Doesnt Obama have hidden records Republicans could demand as a counter, or any info he is hiding from voters? Romney appears terrified to return fire and he wants to play nice guy to independents by not being critical. Will that work? Time will tell.
Isn't Obama out of touch? Isn't he an elite (too)? Isn't he making tons of bogus claims? Well....?
me neither...just look at what that mindset gets us...W and all the 'run it thru CONgress and let somebody else "fix"it' mentality that got us stuff like mcquueeeg/feingold, and the continuing useless attempts to halt bambams commie agenda...
theyre all politicians at heart [with very few exceptions] and are working solely for the next election...
Doesnt Obama have hidden records Republicans could demand as a counter, or any info he is hiding from voters?
that ship sailed with mcquueeeg in 08'...the talking points became toxic whenever anything about bambams past is mentioned..."birther" is just one example...and the race card is still the high trump vs the 'GOP-arty of rich white guys'...
both parties are just two wings of the same tyranny-o-saurus bird of central planning...and both believe that *it* would work if only we could do it better and smarter than all the other failed examples of collectivism throughout history...
or they know its just and endgame to personal power and a seat at the table with other critters like themselves, who deserve/desire to be innoculated from reality behind the moat that keeps the rabble outside their lil castle...
oh well, history has shown that whenever a defensive position is established, mans innovation comes up with a seige weapon to make that defensive position a deathtrap for those inhabitants...philisophically speaking, of course...
time will tell if they finally found a way to extinguish the flame of FReedom...
Hold on there, are you trying to tell me they are BOTH bad???? Hold your horses (note to self: put standard lecture here). Obama is 100X, no 1000X, no , 10000000...X times worse than any Republican who ever lived or ever will live. You need to retune your compass so it points at Obama all the time.
HA_HA, I love playing the other side...
” I do know I don’t see Romney using anything personal against Obama in a similar way. Obama demands Romney’s tax returns be made public. Doesnt Obama have hidden records Republicans could demand as a counter, or any info he is hiding from voters? Romney appears terrified to return fire and he wants to play nice guy to independents by not being critical. Will that work? “
No, it won’t work. It never has.
Watching Obama’s constant assault on Romney's character on his work and period at Bain, his offshore accounts, his tax returns, him calling him a MR liar and a criminal and Romney refusing to attack Obama back and instead whining about being picked on hoping for voters sympathy (it's not happening for you Mitt), I am now seeing a repeat of the Maryland race between massive tax increase same-sex marriage Dem O Malley and weak RINO Bob Erhlich.
In that race the Dem O Malley constantly assaulted the RINO with character assaults ‘You cant trust him he's a liar” and Ehlich refused to fight back or even expand his issue list belong the single taxes(nothing on Maryland Dream Act, nothing on Maryland gay marriage and he was not trusted on the tax issue) so he got slaughtered and we had to watch it, although I swore off local news except the gym where I cant turn it off. I swear it looked like RINO Erhlich just ran to give the liberal Dem the election. It was painful to watch.
This is starting to look that way.
About three weeks ago some freeper told me he heard Rush say Romney was winning and he thought Romney would win in a landslide because of Rush's positive attitude.
I told him I must live on the planet Earth.
Obama is a gangster thug from Chicago. There is unimpeachable evidence of same. If Romney fails to attack Obama as a POLITICIAN, and as a MAN, he will lose!
What we really need(and I mean need BADLY), is another LEE ATWATER!!
From what I've seen, the idea that he's going to make the same mistake that McCain did in not attacking Bambi is truly off the mark. It's early, no worries yet.
” Bambi blew through 100 mil this past month and got nothing”
True. If this is a “Rope A Dope” scenario, it might work. After McCain practically handed the election to Obama, my paranoia is not an indication of insanity : )
My theory on that is :
1) The RINO club are worried about obama’s likable polls being much better than Romneys, so they are terrified to go after his person, Obama is NOT scared and is destroying Romney's person.
2) Romney has so many problems on so many specific issues that he is scared to get in a fight on anything but the ‘bad economy’ as default. He is terrified someone will end up mad at him, or catch him.
So Obama knows this and will try to make sure enough independents will not trust Romney to try to fix the economy. He attacks Romney's character using the weaknesses some of us saw they would: out of touch super rich guy, and pointing out/claiming how Romney's ‘plans’ are very similar to GWB’s. Now Romney is whining.
As Romney campaign says, Obama’s plan is to destroy Romney all while playing :”Above it all”
We got a lemon folks and it's rotted too.
*Crossing fingers there is a competent campaign strategery in place*
The Obamas have never paid anything, they’re kept by our enemies, or I should say, other enemies.
OMG. What an annoying little fruitcake that Chris Hayes is. Now I remember why I haven’t watched MSNBC since’08. Major drama queen alert!