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Sen. Mike Lee: Churches Should Not Be Forced to Perform Gay Marriage
Newsmax ^ | 12/28/2013 | Audrey Hudson

Posted on 12/28/2013 10:48:58 AM PST by SeekAndFind

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To: PGR88
I feel that if a law needs to be involved at all, and government is involved, whether for the affirmative or negative, the battle is already lost, and the secularists have won - because we are saying that government shall set the bounds of religious behavior.

Bingo!
Some people call me pro-homosexual when I say that the real front isn't in law and therefore consider [federal] marriage laws to be a mistake.
(The real problem is Sin, and the real solution to that problem is Jesus.)

51 posted on 12/28/2013 1:09:14 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

It’s up to the individual Bishop where she lives to do this.

Basically she has already excommunicated herself....so not to worry.


52 posted on 12/28/2013 1:20:02 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: SeekAndFind

God’s laws apply to ALL mankind.


53 posted on 12/28/2013 1:20:52 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: SeekAndFind

Solution- FAIR TAX


54 posted on 12/28/2013 1:41:10 PM PST by 11th Commandment (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/)
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To: SeekAndFind

I think that churches should be required to preform gay marriages, with so many liberals in all of the churches voting for a new fascist America let it come home to their own front yard, maybe some conservative fence sitters will get off their duffs.


55 posted on 12/28/2013 2:00:14 PM PST by stockpirate (It appears good men have decided to do nothing, so evil is prevailing......)
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To: SeekAndFind

Doesn’t matter what a “bill” says. Doesn’t even matter what a “constitutional amendment” says. The courts can just throw them out if they offend elite sensibilities. So why do we even waste the time?


56 posted on 12/28/2013 2:27:44 PM PST by madprof98
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To: P-Marlowe
Now Bruce, do you take Roger to be your lawfully wedded spouse and partner in this ceremonial Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, to have and to hold until one of you or the other enters into the gates of a fiery Hell?

I'll try to copy/paste you a copy of the traditional wedding service for re-writing. Then we'll see if we can make it go viral.

57 posted on 12/28/2013 2:30:50 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: OneWingedShark

A flat rate will still always raise the specter of government forcing religion to give out of the offering plate.


58 posted on 12/28/2013 2:34:54 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: Kennard
You'd think he was a conservative.

Must be (and it is) an election year.

59 posted on 12/28/2013 2:39:11 PM PST by denydenydeny (Admiration of absolute government is proportionate to the contempt one has for others.-Tocqueville)
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To: SeekAndFind

What may be coming is the end of church marriages entirely. The American people will do anything in the false mantra of “fairness”.


60 posted on 12/28/2013 2:48:31 PM PST by Theodore R.
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To: stockpirate

Conservatives have a history of sticking with their familiar churches even after the churches move hopelessly liberal.


61 posted on 12/28/2013 2:54:43 PM PST by Theodore R.
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To: SeekAndFind
.


Sorry ... Senator Lee ...


these "Christian Churches" will have to jettison their "30 pieces of silver" IRS 501 C-3 tax-exempt status FIRST ...


"hint" ... it's a CONTRACT with the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ...


and the last time I checked ...


"all" U.S. Government corporate "Federal Contractors" (like "religious corporations") ...


have to CELEBRATE "Sodomite Marriage".




Period.




.
62 posted on 12/28/2013 4:08:53 PM PST by Patton@Bastogne (Swine Piss be upon the Sodmite Obama, and his Child-Rapist False Prophet Mohammed)
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To: ifinnegan
.


"Messr. Smith speaks the TRUTH."



Go check your U.S. Supreme Court rulings ...

starting with "Bob Jones University vs. The United States (1973)".



Sorry, I hate to bring "bad news" to "good people".


.
63 posted on 12/28/2013 4:12:27 PM PST by Patton@Bastogne (Swine Piss be upon the Sodmite Obama, and his Child-Rapist False Prophet Mohammed)
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To: oldbrowser
.


It is not their tax status that grants them freedom of religion.


With all due respect, here's another "legal" perspective:

"Any and all" FEDERAL CONTRACTORS surrender their "freedom" with the first handout of Uncle Sam's "thirty pieces of silver".


Just check the legal rulings ... and the Federal Aquistion Regulations (FAR) ...



Nothing personal here ... just an "ugly" TRUTH.



.
64 posted on 12/28/2013 4:16:49 PM PST by Patton@Bastogne (Swine Piss be upon the Sodmite Obama, and his Child-Rapist False Prophet Mohammed)
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To: xzins
A flat rate will still always raise the specter of government forcing religion to give out of the offering plate.

No, it actually wouldn't — the whole power of 501(c) is that it is exemptions (and possibly affords tax-credits/writeoffs).

65 posted on 12/28/2013 4:30:23 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

My sense is that if “income” is the item to be taxed, then churches will be viewed as having “income” that comes into the church via the offering plate.

I want to get rid of the income tax. I’ll agree that a flat tax is a positive first step. Then we should repeal the 16th.

Also, in the meantime, families, the same as businesses, should be able to totally write off all expenses before arriving at their actual income.


66 posted on 12/28/2013 4:33:35 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: xzins
My sense is that if “income” is the item to be taxed, then churches will be viewed as having “income” that comes into the church via the offering plate.

Possibly.
You could also make the argument that only individuals have income… this would exclude churches and corporations. (I have mixed feelings about that though; you could set up all your "gains" [salary/interest/etc] as a trust, and be the executor of the trust... then what's "getting fed" is the 'trust' [which you control] and isn't considered income. Such behavior could be construed as fraud though.)

I want to get rid of the income tax. I’ll agree that a flat tax is a positive first step. Then we should repeal the 16th.

I have mixed feelings there. A sales-tax could be very much abused, imagine having a 2% tax on most things but on anything used anywhere in firearms manufacture as a 200% tax. (It could also be the harbinger of a VAT.) Repeal of the 16th is a good step, but I think almost more vital is the repeal of the 17th; because the 16th centralized power in DC by stripping the states themselves of representation.

Also, in the meantime, families, the same as businesses, should be able to totally write off all expenses before arriving at their actual income.

No, I disagree there. Some things could rightly be considered expenses, like food, but just how much has food-stamps been expanded? Moreover, the quality of the food could be an issue: filet-minion for every meal will cost a lot more than beans and rice. And that's only one category of expense, there's things like doctors and so forth, too.

No, the real demon in the tax-system is complexity and exceptions. It's by these means that there's so much corruption in government/industry.

67 posted on 12/28/2013 4:46:24 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark
filet mignon

Some businesses are much more extravagant in their expenses than are others, and it seems not to matter if they buy Mercedes as company cars or Fiestas. Either way, they write them off.

68 posted on 12/28/2013 5:02:15 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: xzins
Some businesses are much more extravagant in their expenses than are others, and it seems not to matter if they buy Mercedes as company cars or Fiestas. Either way, they write them off.

So? Why introduce unneeded complexity? — No write-offs achieves this.

69 posted on 12/28/2013 5:14:31 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Senator, instead of loudly vouching for the federal judge that just rammed sodomy fake marriage down the throats of Utahans, you, or even ONE of your Republican colleagues, could have opposed this guy when Obama appointed him.


70 posted on 12/28/2013 5:17:26 PM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: OneWingedShark

You can’t tell a company it has to pay taxes on its gross receipts. Every business in America would go out of business.


71 posted on 12/28/2013 5:17:42 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: SeekAndFind

If the Senator comes out publicly in favor of the impeachment and removal of judges who violate their oath and make lawless “laws” from the bench, I’ll take his efforts seriously.


72 posted on 12/28/2013 5:19:22 PM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: Terry L Smith
The exemption you speak of was placed there by the second most corrupt POTUS when he was U.S. The Speaker of The House from hailing from Texas. This was done to protect his corrupt political hide from a candidate which he feared had church backing. This he is the one who wrote and got 503 c {3} passed to silence churches.

Church non taxation was the unofficial law from founding of nation up until 1894 when it became law that they were officially exempt without speech restriction. LBJ placed churches under the IRS and even if they do pay taxes they would still be under IRS scrutiny.

73 posted on 12/28/2013 5:23:44 PM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: Patton@Bastogne
"Any and all" FEDERAL CONTRACTORS surrender their "freedom" with the first handout of Uncle Sam's "thirty pieces of silver".

The ugly part of this is that first they take the money from the taxpayers.

Then they offer to return some of it to you if you will follow their orders.

They are trying to bribe us with our own money.

It is time to bring the government to heel.

74 posted on 12/28/2013 5:35:00 PM PST by oldbrowser (Constitutional republic > new age feel good free range constitutional kakistocracy)
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To: cva66snipe

Dear cva66snipe,

I think you missed my question. WHY even attempt to acquire what equates to a federal good-ol-boy blessing, if you really are under the call and doing the work?

You are supposed to be the church, not the brick and mortar. Why not just go and assemble, and be what you are called to do?

The ideas that it is against city code, or homeowners association rules, or that sort, should not matter, shouldn’t it?

If you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, the way would be open for you, yes? No doubts, no maybes, yes or no.

Too many folks are worried about already corrupt authorities, by their very nature, and do not feel at all comfortable, out among the wolves.


75 posted on 12/28/2013 5:46:42 PM PST by Terry L Smith
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To: xzins
You can’t tell a company it has to pay taxes on its gross receipts. Every business in America would go out of business.

Sure you can. Some states do. And to the end-consumer it's indistinguishable from a sale's tax because it is passed on to the consumer.

76 posted on 12/28/2013 5:58:59 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Not to forget cake makers.


77 posted on 12/28/2013 6:47:30 PM PST by depressed in 06 (America conceived in liberty, dies in slavery.)
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To: Terry L Smith
Up till really the past 20 years no one objected to where people gathered as far as in homes. Now merely holding a Bible Study in your own home can result in substantial civil fines and if continued loss of property and contempt of court. For the fisrt time in our nations history prayer using Jesus name in our armed services can bring punishment under the UCMJ. Those acts would have had the likes of Jefferson and Madison taking up arms.

Make no mistake about it. Since the early 1960's the church in the United States has been under attack by our elected government and ones in education attending college in the mid 1960's and later.

Ironically many leading the fight against churches belong to a church with Christ name used in it and I don't mean the one called church of Christ. The United Church of Christ though is far left of even Unitarians it seems.

78 posted on 12/28/2013 6:52:21 PM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: SeekAndFind

This makes too much sense within the Constitutional framework and so will likely be rebuffed even within the so-called conservative House. In any case it will never become law in the current islamocommunist framework that exists from the White House all the way down into local school boards. At this point it seems all we can do is pray for a deliverer out of this obamad nightmare.


79 posted on 12/28/2013 8:18:32 PM PST by onedoug
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To: EternalVigilance

RE: you, or even ONE of your Republican colleagues, could have opposed this guy when Obama appointed him.

Was Mike Lee in the Senate when this judge was appointed?


80 posted on 12/28/2013 9:20:46 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

This is a very big problem with contracting with the IRS for exemptions to begin with. The very purpose of 501©(3) is to control the churches-—to make them state churches.


81 posted on 12/28/2013 9:29:38 PM PST by John Leland 1789
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To: sagar

There has never been any law requiring any church to file for 501(c)(3) status. When they do so, they do so voluntarily. Yes, it IS a money issue. To the IRS it is a CONTROL issue.


82 posted on 12/28/2013 10:01:48 PM PST by John Leland 1789
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To: SeekAndFind

My apologies. These cases are coming so fast and furious that I conflated a couple of things.

Waddoups was not appointed by Obama, he was picked by GW Bush. Both Hatch and Bennett advocated heavily for him in the Senate, leading to a voice vote to confirm him. The Republicans didn’t oppose him at all. Softball questions and a rubber stamp. That’s it.


83 posted on 12/29/2013 6:07:03 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: SeekAndFind
To clarify a bit more, it was Senator Lee who vouched for the nomination by Obama of the federal judge who ruled in the "gay marriage" case from earlier in the month. These two horrendous rulings came so close together, I got the two judges mixed up.

Robert J. Shelby: Judge who made gay marriage legal in Utah

He was nominated to the federal bench by President Barack Obama in November 2011 and was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on Sept. 22, 2012. During the process, Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah, described Shelby as "pre-eminently qualified" and predicted he would be "an outstanding judge."

84 posted on 12/29/2013 8:07:41 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: EternalVigilance

We all make mistakes. It is almost impossible to totally judge a person’s character, much less determine how he will decide on a case such as this.

Heck, we sometimes even choose the wrong investment, or worse, marry the wrong person.


85 posted on 12/29/2013 8:10:08 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

While that’s certainly true, I still find Republican rubber-stamping of Obama judges to be egregious, and think that Senator Lee’s description of this guy as “preeminently qualified” was ridiculous. I looked at his resume and it was very, very thin. “Night manager at Macey’s grocery store” just doesn’t scream constitutional judicial heavy weight to me. But whatever...


86 posted on 12/29/2013 8:19:34 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: cva66snipe

I think that since you brought up the UCMJ, I request that you find me, exactly, where it says that.

Now, when you start mentioning church groups by their particular titles, you had better include every other church group in the book, because there will always be one, in all of them!

_I_ am a Unitarian ordained priest.

I am sick, sick, sick of all the self-hand-wringing, and woes-is-me’s, and I would like to see folks get up and bloody well DO SOMETHING!!

As for me, I can only do so much, since I am also a disabled veteran. Had I gone all “vietnam veteran hollywood supposed cuckoo”, I would not be alive, having done my duty to actually erase living Communists within this country, and in so doing my so-called patriotic part, the kind benevolent veteran-loving federal government, would have already applied the necessary current/voltage/amperes to make sure I never did it, again.

I say this, without meaning to sound detrimental, “churchians” are the most timid, scared to do anything outside the doors of whatever chapel, temple, tabernacle, or church, that I have ever seen, and I saw plenty between 1986 to 1994, when I was attending Smithtown Gospel Tabernacle, on Long Island, NY. They would not even go to the local V.A. hospital, when I questioned them, because they might get hurt!

WE do not need “churchians”, Christians with a backbone knwing it might be their last breath, yes, but not “churchians”!

And yes, I know x3, it will be that bad, to save the Republic!


87 posted on 12/29/2013 2:16:26 PM PST by Terry L Smith
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To: Terry L Smith
First of all Chaplains have been ordered to refrain from using Jesus Christ name in prayers. How is that falling under the UCMJ? Failure to obey orders. I also simply stated the Unitarian church is left leaning meaning politically. That said the author of The Declaration of Independence was also a Deist. On the negative side he edited a rather Christless Bible. His Constitutional right to do so but I wouldn't consider it spiritually a wise move.

I'll leave you to steam with these questions. Who is Barry Lynn? What political and church offices has he held?

88 posted on 12/29/2013 5:01:37 PM PST by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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