Army quits tests after competing rifle outperforms M4A1 carbine

The Washington Times ^ | August 19, 2014 | Rowan Scarborough

[Timber Rattler]

A competing rifle outperformed the Army’s favored M4A1 carbine in key firings during a competition last year before the service abruptly called off the tests and stuck with its gun, according to a new confidential report.

The report also says the Army changed the ammunition midstream to a round “tailored” for the M4A1 rifle. It quoted competing companies as saying the switch was unfair because they did not have enough time to fire the new ammo and redesign their rifles before the tests began.

Exactly how the eight challengers — and the M4 — performed in a shootout to replace the M4, a soldier’s most important personal defense, has been shrouded in secrecy.

But an “official use only report” by the Center for Naval Analyses shows that one of the eight unidentified weapons outperformed the M4 on reliability and on the number of rounds fired before the most common type of failures, or stoppages, occurred, according to data obtained by The Washington Times.

[reefdiver]

Not me, I was one of the last to cary a M14 before we switched to to 16. But I thought I read our guys liked the 4, but maybe not

[bt-99]

I am not sure that is how it works. The energy from the round is the same energy is has in recoil minus whatever it loses in flight due to air drag. The firing recoil is absorbed by the action of the weapon, the weight of the weapon, recoil pad,etc. It is spread out on the shooters shoulder by the recoil pad. If the same amount of energy strikes a plate embedded in a vest,without penetrating(and this is the big one) it can spread out the energy if the amour is designed correctly. I agree if the amour is dimpled it could be very traumatic. I’m not sure though, there are probably some experts on here.

[grobdriver]

From Wikipedia:
The FN entry was different from existing SCAR versions in that it combined closed bolt operation (fires from bolt forward/chambered cartridge) with open bolt operation (fires from bolt to the rear, no chambered cartridge), switching automatically from closed to open bolt as the weapon's barrel heats up during firing.

Interesting.
Have to wonder if this causes a change in the POI.
That'd be a bitch in the middle of a firefight.

[grobdriver]

I’m not sure though, there are probably some experts on here.

LOL!
Are you kidding?
We're all experts here!

[Born to Conserve]

“This test was a measurement of Class 1 and Class 2 magazine stoppages, in which one soldier can clear the gun himself within 10 seconds or more than 10 seconds, respectively. The U.S. official said classes 1 and 2 are the most common stoppages in battle.”

Genius.

[Chainmail]

Ah, you're hitting a sore spot: the M-14 was a stop-gap weapon to succeed the M-1 and BAR and not the earth-shaker that pundits were expecting (like a US version of the FAL) but it was solid, dependable and powerful.

I carried the M-14 throughout my 17 month tour and half in combat in Vietnam in '66-67. I tricked it out with a light trigger, a clip-on bipod from the M-16 and a homemade rate reducer made of rubber to cut the rate of fire from 800 RPM to about a BAR-like 450 RPM. It was heavy and rusted almost instantly in Vietnam's climate but it always fired when you pulled the trigger and it hit, hard, whatever you aimed at. I became a virtuoso with the thing.

We got the new M-16s in late '66 and they were a disaster: they were difficult to zero with their goofy sights, the safeties stuck thanks to excessively strong detent springs, and of course, they pulled the heads of cartridge cases and left them stuck in the chamber - then fed another round into that mess - all in combat when you life depended on it. The next part made it worse - the M-16 chamber is inaccessible from the outside, so we carried assembled cleaning rods to try to knock the junk back out of the chamber. If that failed, you had to pull the magazine, strip the upper receiver, and then use the cleaning rod to hammer the mess out and then reassemble the weapon and try to resume the fight, all while you're in the middle of the fight of your life. Added to that, the round's performance was lousy. People hit with the thing usually didn't go down, even though you could see the dust coming off of them when the round hit. We could see M-16 tracers ricocheting off wet grass and I can't count the number of enemy I saw run off in complete safety as thousand of rounds of M-16 were fired at them as they ran. Just couldn't hit squat with that thing unless they were on top of you.

I solved my problem by using sneaky techniques to keep my '14. When my grunt company commander asked me why I still had an M-14, I told him that I was "in artillery and we haven't been issued 'em yet" and when I went back to my parent battery to visit and they told me to turn in my '14 and get an M-16, I'd tell 'em "can't - the grunts want me to keep my '14".

Played that game until May '67 when I got hit. My lieutenant came up to me and said "Rick, I'm sorry you're hurt, but can I have your M-14?"

[Fightin Whitey]

It hates the US military.

True that. Hates the U.S. in general, the working, tax-paying, God-fearing portion of it, anyway.

[W.]

I don’t see how it couldn’t help but affect POI. The only secnario it might not would be at room-clearing distances, most old submachine guns fired from the open-bolt position, what the difference in weight bolt-wise in regards to kinetic energy is I have no idea.

[sten]

some videos you might find interesting. if you search youtube for ‘kryron’ or ‘bork industries’, you’ll find more

Terminator Armor Demonstration at Guns and Ammo Garage in Las Vegas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qppt_d17Pcc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej7PnvymOZo

Absolutley Insane Body Armor!! (Stopping .50 cal Rounds)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=db2_1363581806

[GOP_Party_Animal]

In addition to the recoil mechanisms, remember that the round is accelerated through the (16”, 20”, 24”) barrel, so the average force transmitted to the shooter is far less than the average force that the recipient’s armor sees as it slows the bullet over just a few inches.

[GOP_Party_Animal]

ping

[wally_bert]

Will look into it later.

I bet just taking the energy from a 50 caliber round probably kicks like three angry mules.

[Eagles6]

Save

[Kenny Bunk]

The M4 in current use is reported an accurate weapon out to long range (500M) but it still requires meticulous maintenance, has frequent stoppages, and still does not have all that much knock'em down, keep'em down power. But the troops seem to "like" it well enough.

Even if they didn't like it however, it is inventory in staggering numbers, along with millions upon millions of rounds of .223 in various bullet weights and performance. How can you fight that? It ain't so great, but it's what we got.

On paper, I think I like the reports on the 6.5 Grendel, the terminal ballistics of which appear rather like the .308. I am prejudiced in favor of the 6.5, though, due to many happy experiences hunting with my trusty Swede 6.5X55.

[Arlis]

Incredible. But still think the impact energy on vital organs would be lethal from a .50cal due to the massive energy.

Only way to test that would be on a pig perhaps.....

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***They pulled the heads of cartridge cases and left them stuck in the chamber***

Same problem that Custer had.

Same problem the British had at Islandwana.

Disasters for both.

Recommendations? Spit on the cartridge before loading, or pi$$ on it after the head is torn off to dissolve the powder fouling.

[556x45]

:) that made me smile...Ive never known anyone happy w/ an M1A/M14 as its handed to them. They can work but only after some substantial effort. Most of the M16 probs you describe were fixed. To my knowledge the M14 never had that attention lavished on it. It was up to the end user to make things right. Nothing is perfect, you just have to pick the problem set you feel is easier to manage. I see you understand that though. :)

‘”Rick, I’m sorry you’re hurt, but can I have your M-14?”’
You did say ‘no!’ right? ;)

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

Does this administration have it’s own version of “That old fogey” James Wolfe Ripley in charge of modernizing our arms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wolfe_Ripley

[sten]

imagine a thin plate suit of the material. sure, thin plates may not stop 50 cal rounds... but it’d stop most everything else and still be light enough to run around in.

then imagine humvees, helicopters and tanks made of the same material. lighter and more durable.

kevlar did everything they could to save their company. it worked. they were able to trip up bork.

and our boys never received the proper gear

[Chainmail]

The newer M16s and M4s with the engineering improvements and the heavier bullet work far and away better than the Vietnam- issue versions. Despite that, they still aren’t dependable or really lethal and have low performance penetrating cover.

The whole concept of a combat weapon is effectiveness. Not cost, not convenience, not who gets the contract. Our young combatants’ lives depend on it. I don’t give a damn what they cost, the weapons we give our troops have got to be the best on earth.