Putin 'urges talks on statehood for east Ukraine' (Putin Toughens Position)

BBC News ^ | 08/31/2014 | BBC News

[1rudeboy]

They were fighting pretty well against the Russian mercenaries, which is why Russia intervened in the first place.

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

Do not cast dispersions on Ukraine fighters. They went to the fron lines without the simplest of military supplies!

Ukraine has been a staunch ally of U.S.A. for a long time. Even during this crisis, Ukraine was still part of U.N. peacekeeping in Africa!

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

P.S.
Ukraine needs REAL weapons, tanks etc.

[BobL]

I remember France thinking they were safe because they had had two bullets for every man, woman, and child in Germany, in 1939.

3 weeks ago, a US spy plane RAN FOR ITS LIFE after being lit up by Russian radar. Obviously if the Russian military was as backwards as you guys portray it, the plane would have had nothing to worry about and would have simply jammed any incoming threat.

So, if you don’t mind, I’ll look at the ACTIONS of the US military, rather than anonymous posters, when it comes to assessing Russian military capability.

So, until they actually start attacking US INTERESTS, I’m happy to let them do what they need to do in their backyard - but I STILL would not mind upgrading our capability, at least to try to catch up, so we don’t have to run like cowards.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

3 weeks ago, a US spy plane RAN FOR ITS LIFE after being lit up by Russian radar.

Kind of a silly remark. Technology is not really what separates us (since the Russians, through the Chinese, steal everything), but, rather, the quality of people, war spirit and prowess on the battlefield. The American is in every way superior to the Russian when it comes to war, and even the Russians themselves recognize this, since they treat their soldiers like trash.

So, until they actually start attacking US INTERESTS, I’m happy to let them do what they need to do in their backyard

IOW, you are complicit in the crimes of Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin regime. You are "happy" to let them "do what they need to do":

[Vermont Lt]

Does anyone think that the Russians have been going to school on our military for the past 13 years? You don’t think they haven’t been watching, inspecting and learning about our tools, policies, and practices since the day we dropped into Afghan country?

They have seen our stuff much more up close and personal than they have since Vietnam, and probably better than then.

They have a strategy. They have developed tools. They know our strengths and weaknesses.

They probably feel they can take us on.

Who knows..,they might be right.

In any event, even if we kick their ass, it’s gonna hurt us economically.

Building Sherman tanks was tough...m1A1s are not only tough to build...but expensive.

[Luircin]

Growing number of Putin lovers?

I don’t see many Putin lovers, but I see a LOT of people who hate the Putin-lovers and claim they’re all over FR.

[BobL]

“IOW, you are complicit in the crimes of Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin regime. You are “happy” to let them “do what they need to do”:”

It’s SAD to think they left was characterizing some of us accurately during the Cold War, when they said we wanted to blow up the world. Luckily cooler heads prevailed - we let Soviet Union “do what they needed to do” in Eastern Europe and elsewhere, and they later collapsed. I was happier with that ending than I would have been comparing our landscapes after a nuclear exchange...but then Obama was around beating the war drums.

“Technology is not really what separates us (since the Russians, through the Chinese, steal everything), but, rather, the quality of people, war spirit and prowess on the battlefield.”

What a line of crap...everything is a factor. Our PROBLEM is that the Russians did not FREEZE in 1990, but kept advancing, and moving ahead of us, with NEW ICBMS, NEW SAMS, and many other new systems. Yes, I’m sure we have great men in our military, but so I’m sure Poland did in 1939...but, as they quickly learned, horses don’t stop tanks...and with us RUNNING FOR OUR LIVES when lit up by an S-400 battery, we’re in not much better off.

[BobL]

Seems as though a LOT OF PEOPLE think that just because we chose to, essentially, FREEZE our military 25 years ago, the rest of the world did the same. Putin now has the S-400 system that has us running for our lives when they activate it, and China now has hypersonic missiles that will EASILY sink our carriers. It’s a NEW WORLD and we chose to simply not engage in it.

Hopefully Putin and/or the Chinese will be nice to us and minimize our losses while putting us in our place.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

It’s SAD to think they left was characterizing some of us accurately during the Cold War, when they said we wanted to blow up the world.

You sound like a lefty yourself. It's a bad sign when a "conservative" apparently agrees with KGB-Communist propaganda.

Luckily cooler heads prevailed - we let Soviet Union “do what they needed to do” in Eastern Europe and elsewhere, and they later collapsed.

They killed about 60 million people, maybe more, and not counting the murders in other Communist countries. They're still at it now, and their "collapse" consisted of a temporary retreat, with all their KGB and Communists becoming "democrats" overnight. Meanwhile, the West has been disarming and gave up the ideological conflict, thus producing people like you.

Perestroika was the best thing that could happen to the Russians, since it put us all off guard.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

I don’t see many Putin lovers, but I see a LOT of people who hate the Putin-lovers and claim they’re all over FR.

They are indeed growing, but most of them are deep cover Russkies who have been hiding around for years. I saw one who had never made a post despite having an account since 2005, and all of a sudden making posts in defense of Putin this year in August.

[palmer]

t is not warmongering to say that Russia and its allies China, Iran, North Korea, etc., are the evil empire and a threat to the United States. Nor is it wrong to say that letting Russia take over Ukraine, or France, or Finland, is very bad and needs to be opposed. Well, maybe not so much for France.

Liberaltarians are dangerous to this country since they have the same reaction as surrender monkey liberals who think that nobody means us harm. They do not know human nature or history.

Unfortunately you are the one who needs to study history. We haven't solved European military problems in any useful way with the exception of helping fight the Nazis. We had no positive impact on Europe in the Cold War nor will we in the new Cold War that is being promoted here. The Chinese and Iranians can be deterred without defending Ukraine. It is not, as you suggest, all or nothing.

We have various specific problems against our interests including Russian nationalism, radical Sunnis, nuclear-seeking Iran, North Korean insanity, Chinese mercantilism and economic and military espionage. To lump them together as an alliance is ignorant and provides no solutions to each of those problems. In fact, it does the opposite, it takes our focus off of the specific problems in favor of distractions like Ukraine.

[BobL]

“Meanwhile, the West has been disarming and gave up the ideological conflict, thus producing people like you.”

Do not, FOR A MINUTE, blame me for the disarming, as you have NO CLUE as to who you’re talking to. My point is that the disarming by the West is now a DONE DEAL and we need to learn to live with the fallout from that, rather than acting like we still have a military worth a damn thing (no matter how effective LGBTs are). If we REALLY want a new Cold War, or hot war, how about we PREPARE for it, rather than start it at our weakest point in 70 years?

If we want to go to war with Russia it would DEFINITELY HELP if we were to start building up our military to the a capability where we can project power. I suspect that you’re one of those IDIOTS that looks at our military budget, compares it to China and Russia’s “published” budgets and thinks all is dandy. Well I’m not - I look at WEAPONS SYSTEMS and we simply haven’t done JACK since the Cold War ended (and even before then).

“Perestroika was the best thing that could happen to the Russians, since it put us all off guard. “

Agree.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Unfortunately you are the one who needs to study history. We haven't solved European military problems in any useful way with the exception of helping fight the Nazis.

The Soviets killed more than their Nazi buddies ever did. And yet, you want us to believe that resisting them is not only futile, but that it accomplished nothing in the past. This also ignores decades of Soviet subversion of the West, and the work of anti-communists in exposing them.

This is why Liberaltarians are nothing more than 5th columnists who should be purged from the movement. They advocate defeatism and passivity in the face of Russian aggression.

No Reaganite conservative would think in these terms.

To lump them together as an alliance is ignorant and provides no solutions to each of those problems.

The Russians and Chinese have been coordinating and engaging in exercises for years now. Russia is also helping Iran with their nuclear program, and China has provided them missile technology necessary to use it. North Korea, similarly, exists because of Russian and Chinese support, and is used by Communist strategists as merely a proxy to mess with the United States. These problems are most certainly related, and to fail to recognize that is definitely ignorance.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Do not, FOR A MINUTE, blame me for the disarming, as you have NO CLUE as to who you’re talking to. My point is that the disarming by the West is now a DONE DEAL and we need to learn to live with the fallout from that, rather than acting like we still have a military worth a damn thing

I think I could agree with you on some level if you did not come off as a defeatist shill for Putin, though I am starting to think that sounding that way was not your intention. Our military is not inferior to Russia, though I do recognize that we are definitely not doing what we need to do to face them.

[GeronL]

Nobody has advocated we go to war with Russia. We have been advocating that we send weapons and material support to a sovereign country being invaded by Russia which is being led by a truly delusional mad man.

[Vermont Lt]

If they just let us retreat to our own continent I will be surprised.

[BobL]

“Nobody has advocated we go to war with Russia. We have been advocating that we send weapons and material support to a sovereign country being invaded by Russia which is being led by a truly delusional mad man.”

...and then what. Do you REALLY think that will make a difference there, other than result in millions of deaths, rather than thousands. If Putin is as delusional as you say, he WILL take Ukraine, and given its proximity to Russia, it will take a bit more than some RPGs to stop him. In fact, it will take WW3, if he is as delusional as you say.

So, other than making Ukraine go through another genocide like they did in the 30s, what’s the point of arming them - when they’re going to be defeated anyway?

[BobL]

“If they just let us retreat to our own continent I will be surprised.”

If you mean “hemisphere”, I agree. Russia and China will be coming our way, in light of how much we’ve pulled back in the past few decades. My point is that we should be RE-ARMING, rather trying to fight, essentially, on horseback. Leaving Putin alone in Ukraine buys us time to re-arm...but again, virtually NO ONE, not even on this site, considers re-arming as something important for us...as they think nothing has changed from 1985 and we can still blast the commies at will - except everything has changed.