Poll: 80 Percent Back Putin Even as Ruble Falls

The New York Times ^ | Dec. 18, 2014 | The Associated Press

[Bettyprob]

MOSCOW — From a Western perspective, Vladimir Putin's days as president of Russia should be numbered: The ruble has lost more than half its value, the economy is in crisis and his aggression in Ukraine has turned the country into an international pariah.

And yet most Russians see Putin not as the cause, but as the solution.

The situation as seen from a Russian point of view is starkly different from that painted in the West, and it is driven largely by state television's carefully constructed version of reality and the Kremlin's methodical dismantling of every credible political alternative.

As Putin prepares to face his public in a much-anticipated televised news conference, an Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research poll released Thursday found that about 80 percent of Russians still support him.

[wetphoenix]

Military flights were shot down in the area for a few days to date, transports and fighter-bombers at fights exceeding typical IR manpad range. You don’t need to be a genuis to figure out there is a professional grade sophisticated SAM in the area, posing imminent threat to commercial traffic.
And Ukrainian military is sophisticated enough to both identify a type by electronic emissions and pinpoint a battery.
Que bono? Who except Ukraine was interested in shot down? It is clear that the traffic control has vectored MH17 on SAM to make rebels look bad.

[wetphoenix]

at fights=heights

[x_plus_one]

The blackout on news from Russia is profound. Thousands of evangelical ‘house churches’ popped up last year. There is a protestant revolution going on in Russia that is profound. The a-religious US government and press don’t see the connection.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

It would be pleasant to see this, but, from what I understand, Protestants are a hopeless minority and are constantly under the attack by the Russians. Most of that country are quite happy to live in chains, as Machiavelli predicted a long time ago in his analysis of such nations:

“Many examples derived from the records of ancient history will show how difficult it is for a people used to living under a Prince to preserve their liberty after they had by some accident acquired it, as Rome acquired it after driving out the Tarquins. And such difficulty is reasonable; because that people is nothing else other than a brute animal, which (although by nature ferocious and wild) has always been brought up in prison and servitude, and which later being left by chance free in a field, and not being accustomed to obtain food or not knowing where to find shelter for refuge, becomes prey to the first one who seeks to enchain it again.” (Discourses of Livy, Ch. XVI)

God can certainly convert a whole people if He so desires, but it seems more like that nation is being built up to torment the West, like Babylon was used to torment an apostate Israel.

It would be nice to be proven wrong, of course.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

You don’t need to be a genuis to figure out there is a professional grade sophisticated SAM in the area, posing imminent threat to commercial traffic.

Commercial traffic flies at altitudes too high to be hit with anything but advanced weaponry, and too high to be confused for Ukrainian jets or transport planes. This is why the attack was likely deliberate in the first place. The Ukrainian intelligence service noted that another flight was in the same airspace, but a Russian one coming over from Russian territory. Considering this is a nation that routinely murders its own people as a provocation, likely the Russkies meant to shoot down the Russian plane, but, being incompetent drunks, they shot down the other airliner by accident.

Que bono? Who except Ukraine was interested in shot down? It is clear that the traffic control has vectored MH17 on SAM to make rebels look bad.

You need to be zotted. These are all old lies that have been disprove a long time ago.

[elhombrelibre]

Putin's proxies made sure the scene was never made available in a timely way for an independent investigation. And who are you trying to kid? You say the dictatorship ended with Stalin. So what did you have between Stalin and Yeltsin? And did the Gulag stop with Stalin? I'm thinking you probably had relatives working at those camps, probably some of the tower guards.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Putin's proxies made sure the scene was never made available in a timely way for an independent investigation

There's no need to go over old ground with him too much. Remember he is a troll, so his job is just to spam. Just mock him and move on. Don't get tied up redebating MH17. If there are any Freepers still confused over who did it, then they've probably been in a coma of some kind.

[elhombrelibre]

Good points. Too bad wettie doesn't offer any real insight that one might hope for from a normal Russian. Instead, we get the party line and nonsense that's easily shown to be false. I take no comfort in this, but I'm well aware there were Communists and fellow travelers who did the same thing when the USSR existed.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

The real honest to goodness Russians who still have some self-respect would hate their country more than I do. It is the sentiment I hear from every Russian dissident I run into online. Unfortunately, they are but a few gems in a nation of mud. That is the soul-destroying cost of 5 generations of communism where the best and brightest and most moral were systematically killed by the state, and sadists were promoted to positions of authority and prosperity.

[x_plus_one]

One interesting note - The Virgin at Fatima requested that Russia be consecrated to her and John Paul II did so after an 80 year wait. The secularized world sees no conflict between their understanding of reality and what is happening.

[Bon mots]

Normally, I would laugh at mad Vlad's predicament.

Normally.
He has already started three wars and killed more Europeans than Al Qaida and he was not even angry then.

Look at what's in 'our corner'.

[elhombrelibre]

I know you're right. Putin hijacked the Russian nation and returned it to the early stages of a full blown totalitarian state. The fact that he still has dolts who think that's fine means they don't understand their own history and the dangers of losing your civil rights and the rule of law.

[nathanbedford]

As I began reading this thread I wondered how I could contribute because it seemed to me that elhombrelibre and Greetings_Puny_Humans were doing a masterful job of confronting Wet Phoenix with facts and arguments to dismantle some unconvincing, even dangerous arguments. It was pointed out to him that he was engaging in equivalency. The facts of the shoot down of the civilian plane were laid out carefully and, I might add, persuasively.

My initial reaction to the threat was that the consensus is correct, 80% of the Russian people are deluded mostly because they don't have access to competing points of view. They are imprisoned in an information jail by a media monopoly. How often have I and other conservatives complained of media bias in America and decried how it affected the people and caused them to place in office a Marxist who is proving to be the worst president in American history.

Our antidote as conservatives to media bias? More free speech! Our antidote as conservatives for a vibrant, vital forum called FreeRepublic? Free speech!

Why would we want to impose on ourselves the very thing that we criticize Putin for doing to the Russian people? I don't want Wet Phoenix zoted and I don't want to read personal attacks against the man, rather I want to read coherent arguments against his positions. If my conservatism cannot stand criticism, it is of no value.

This vigilante-ism, this mania to zot is not just a path to ignorance and bad policy, it is destructive of the forum, it weakens us, it turns off young people, it makes us ultimately into what we despise. I concede that discipline must be maintained to prevent this forum from being sabotaged but there is a difference between self-preservation and censorship. I further concede that this is Jim Robinson's forum to conduct as he pleases and so far it has generally pleased him to be wise.

[elhombrelibre]

I’m probably going to do my best to simply ignore wet since I’ve concluded she is either a former communist, a fully paid Putinista, or a supporter of oppressing Russia’s neighbors.

[trebb]

Blame Obama. His idiotic sanctions is the best cover for all the economic faults made by Russian government in a decade. It is now all considered an act of war by the West.

Not to mention that his weakness is what emboldened Putin in the first place. Palin, then Romney noted the growing threat that was Russia and Obama and his folks poo-pooed the notion. Without Obama, it is likely this would have been nipped in the bud and put to bed a few years ago.

[Flick Lives]

To know the future, study the past. Russia is a country that defeated two of the strongest armies on the planet at the time; partly thru the sheer size of the country and the harsh Winters and partly thru the tenacity of their army.

remains of the Germain 6th Army outside Stalingrad

[Freelance Warrior]

80% of the Russian people are deluded mostly because they don't have access to competing points of view

This is not true since state-run TV stations aren't the sole source of information in Russia as anywhere else. We live in the XXI century and use the Internet, cable TV (like the Euronews), and now many Russians have learned a foregn language (mainly English) well enough to access alternative points of view in a foreign language.

It cannot change the fact that many Russians perceive the USA or Western Europe as a foe to the Russian people. Of course, it's not a foe like the Nazi Germany but someone who is trying to weaken Russia just in case.

[kevkrom]

Boy, it’s a good thing there isn’t any historical precedent that aggressive nationalists who have little respect for their neighbor’s borders and who preside over crumbling economies while maintaining massive popular support at home aren’t the type to start global-scale wars or anything.

[ColdSteelTalon]

I think the Russians understand that their demise is planned by people outside of their country.

Putin should get more active in the middle east. That would put the world on notice wouldn't it?

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Why would we want to impose on ourselves the very thing that we criticize Putin for doing to the Russian people? I don't want Wet Phoenix zoted

I disagree with you. Trolls add nothing to debate, especially Russian ones. They don't provide information or a legitimate point of view. They only know how to tell lies. They use our own freedoms as a weapon to spread lies and crap all over the place. Note that he is still parroting old stuff from months ago that have long been disproved, such as the idea that the airliner was "redirected" by the Ukrainian government so it could be shot down.

This whole free speech defense for the Russkies sounds very pretty, but we don't apply the same logic to white supremacists or commies who might want to post here. We also don't really owe them much in the way of personal respect. Watch Pheonix's post long enough and you'll see how he calls the United States a "police state" in comparison to his utopia of Russia. Occasionally he loses his temper and says stupid stuff like that. He's basically a monkey.