Time For a Serious Discussion on Secession

Liberty Shrugs ^ | 03/24/2015 | PUBLIUS

[Bill Russell]

Ref: “State by state secession is the only way to go. The state legislatures have an obligation to nullify the Federal govt when they over step their bounds,even to the point of secession.”

You are probably correct for states like Texas,Oklahoma, & Kansas. However, there are states like Illinois whose national and state wide politics are dominated by Chicago and Springfield. However, outside of those immediate areas, the rest of IL looks a lot more like Kansas and Indiana. Pennsylvania is the same way outside of the Philly and Pittsburgh areas. The same can be true for certain towns located in some large counties which may be dominated by a large liberal population in another town.

This is why the book and proposed Constitution offers the county model as the baseline, but makes allowance for seceding States to remain in tact under their State Constitutions.

This is why the model offered in the book allows for

[nathanbedford]

I readily concede that achieving any reform through the Article V movement will be extremely difficult. The downside, contrary to your suggestion is very limited as set forth by the arithmetic which I have described in post #44 on this thread.

Thus it is easy to frustrate amendments and difficult to effect them. But the downside is political failure and the consequences are served up by history for staying on our current course.

The downside for failed attempts to secede are far more dangerous because they include a tendency to slide into violence, vigilantism, terrorism, militias, Civil War and all of the horrors incurred in Bleeding Kansas. There are good reasons why Robert E Lee, one of the sublimest of all Americans, declined to condone continuing the struggle after Appomattox by way of a guerrilla war. He knew about Bleeding Kansas.

[DoodleDawg]

I think the South=MidWest would have a very strong old NATO type relationship.

I would like to see good relations between the two countries, and see no reason why thoseshouldn't exist. But I have no desire for a formal treaty with the South. Living in flyover country my entire life, and having been dominated by and condescended to by New York and Washington and California for a century or more, I have no desire to trade that for condescension or domination by Dallas.

[central_va]

You are probably correct for states like Texas,Oklahoma, & Kansas.

The beauty of state by state secession is those left behind in deep blue states can emigrate to the new Free USA. The county by county model is always the favorite of those conservative left in blue land. Well I got news for you I, for one, don't give a damn about those people.. They can move to Free USA and be welcomed or stay in socialist hell. It is up to them. At least they have a choice.

[Bill Russell]

Ref; “The problem will not be to stop left-wing amendments but to pass prudent conservative amendments which restore the Constitution by invoking the Constitution.”

Which is exactly why I do not believe an Article V Convention will be successful in turning back the tide of liberal advances.

BTW: you do your namesake proud by weighing into the fray....”Furstest with the mostest!”

[Bill Russell]

Ref: “If Texas declares independence, I’m moving there

Seems like half the Freepers would take up arms against Texas and the other half moving there.”

Nah, that’s only when the Catholics and Calvinists start posting...

[Bill Russell]

Ref: “Ted Cruz is a last chance. If we can place him in the White House I think we can start to turn things around.”

Hopefully so — It is just that I see so many of the insiders in the Party pulling back room deals to short cut the process.

[nathanbedford]

Nothing would please me more than to find a Valhalla with moderate weather bereft of leftists in which to enjoy my amber years. But what comes after me? I am pretty confident of my own kids but I'm not so sure anybody else's, will they remain true or will they be seduced by the siren of the welfare state? We can have no doubt that there will be politicians aplenty calculating they can get power by so pandering.

You must be very careful in how population transfers are mandated and effectuated. In our own country we have the Cherokees moved out along the trail of tears. We have the Mormons fleeing to Utah. These situations might even be described today as crimes against humanity. Certainly we have seen these situations countless times in Europe including what the Turks did to the Armenians, the Germans to most of Europe, the Russians on the backwash, countless times in the Balkans, etc.

What do you do about the socialists who refuse to move out? Do you force them? If they are actually incompatible, how can you let them stay? Let's assume we come to a partition, a real property owner who is a socialist but wants to stay will no doubt demand to be ruled over according to the old Constitution. He will say, if you want to change that you cannot do it by subterfuge, that is by a majority vote for secession, rather you must do it by a supermajority vote to change the Constitution. Can you get a majority vote for that purpose, can you get a supermajority?

If you can get a supermajority, have you not fulfilled the needs of reform in article 5?

Can you move populations around without bloodshed?

(By way of clarification, it is quite obvious that separation is often the best remedy as we saw in Czechoslovakia and in the Soviet Union.)

[central_va]

transfers are mandated and effectuated.

You can be an obdurate prick sometimes. The socialism is a draw, the freedom is draw too. No mandate needed. You know that, so quit the straw man arguments; it is unbecoming of your moniker.

[Bill Russell]

Ref:”Secession only gives them a reason to escalate with force; a sure way to lose support of moderates; will only end in tyrannical oppression of freedom loving people;”

The question is not whether an escalation of force will come from the tyranny of the engineered majority voting themselves money from the Treasury. It is a question of when and what methods the people require them to employ.

As you said: “Reform comes from standing toe to toe pointing out the flaws in their thinking and structure... We have no opposition party, just democrat lite.”

A large portion of shoring up our strength is to have a credible plan —not idle threats to shore up the backbone of those Republicans who are not sure who they should fear.

[Bill Russell]

Exit82, You have captured many of the emotions I felt as I wrote this book and reply to many of the posts in this forum. Thank you for your kind comments.

[Leep]

The New Free America i am not worried so much about.

However, what does anyone think the New Socialist America would be like? Seems to me they could have open black markets? What is to stop them? Deals with the worst characters in the world? Child prostitution? Let your imagination run wild.
What could we the New Free America do about it?

[Usagi_yo]

No, I still insist that land mass does not vote, nor is it a constituency.

[Bill Russell]

Ref: “If secession comes I don’t see it partitioning the country in two. I think three countries, maybe four, is far more likely.....”

I hope the template I have provided in the book will help avoid such a calamity. The template provides for all seceding cities, counties,and states to join in a common union of the Representative Republic of the United States. Essentially “resetting” or “rebooting” our Republic to the original intent of the Founding Fathers. One of the keys to ensuring a longer endurance of these principles is the elimination of low-information and lazy voters from the voting roles. This is done by requiring two years of active service in the militia (Federal, state, or local military,law enforcement, emergency or public health services at any age or stage of health) and a public oath to support and defend the Constitution before full enfranchisement.

[Brae Jager]

I swear, some freepers would still be waving their ‘Murican flags while climbing onto boxcars.

People have the right to choose their government. There is nothing “loony” about secession. It’s how America was created to begin with.

By your comment, I take it you consider yourself a British subject and fly the Union Jack?

[Usagi_yo]

Same with people who think they’re channeling Thomas Jefferson thru improv.

[Bill Russell]

ref:”The downside for failed attempts to secede are far more dangerous because they include a tendency to slide into violence, vigilantism, terrorism, militias, Civil War and all of the horrors incurred in Bleeding Kansas. There are good reasons why Robert E Lee, one of the sublimest of all Americans, declined to condone continuing the struggle after Appomattox by way of a guerrilla war. He knew about Bleeding Kansas.”

One of the things I worked so hard on in writing this book was to provide a structure to maintain civil law and order; to allow the issues to be settled with ballot boxes and not cartridge boxes. Which is why the county civil structure is so important. I have been to Sarajevo and seen the after effects of failed regimes in the Middle East — and like so many of the other FREEPERS, I would gladly give my life if it can be avoided here. As it is, no matter which course we choose, there will be bleeding cities just like Ferguson. The plan I offer, will hopefully keep the mainstream area free of mob insanities.

[Little Pig]

First, I really think the 2nd needs to have the explanatory clause removed. It’s far too easy nowadays (mainly due to the shift in the definitions of several key words) to misconstrue the entire purpose of the 2nd.

As to the concern over another War Between the States: during the previous one, we had a President who actually cared about the Union, and there were still people who had lived through the Revolutionary war walking around. This time, we have a _resident who really gives the appearance that he wishes most of Red America would just disappear, and many of his supporters voice that very opinion. If Red States started bailing out, I suspect a large percentage of the Blue areas would (at least initially) cheer them on and declare “good riddance”.

And yes, land area doesn’t equal a demographic majority, but it does highlight the deep divide between the two sides, and the increasing disparity between them.

[Bill Russell]

Ref”I would like to see good relations between the two countries, and see no reason why thoseshouldn’t exist. But I have no desire for a formal treaty with the South. Living in flyover country my entire life, and having been dominated by and condescended to by New York and Washington and California for a century or more, I have no desire to trade that for condescension or domination by Dallas.”

Ben Franklin said it best in that it is far better that we should all hand together, for surely we shall all hang separately.

[Bill Russell]

ref: “Nutty idea. It led to a civil war last time. A few died as I recall.

I do not believe it will be allowed this time either.”

I believe we are headed for a tyranny of the mob if we continue our present course. There will be conflict, it is more of a question of choosing the engagement and the engagement area verses having it chosen for us.