Posted on 08/14/2015 7:10:49 PM PDT by kindred
Yes indeed. I have found that extreme Calvinism can be quite disheartening as so many verses teach of the grace of God and His will that all sinners would come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, a bride must say yes to the bridegroom to be a bride.
God also allows men the free will to do stupid things so that his judgements might be just and, as often as not, the stupid manner in which men exercise their free will also results in more punishment than God would dish out.
Just look at what happens when leftists continue to get their way.
The more I learn of the love of God, the more I realize that God respects what we choose.
If we are dead set on being slaves to Satan forever, we will get our wish, in the place called Hell, caught up in Satan’s vain scoffing and rage. That represents less contempt and more respect for us than it would be if God annihilated us. He would rather that we be able to realize our choice, twisted and inimical to Him though it be, than to force it out of possibility.
I mess up. And when I do, it’s often spectacular. And every time I do, I know down to the very essence of my being that God did not predestine me to do so. Nor did a Calvinist god force me to do so (as he *must* — he can’t condemn me unless I sin; so if it’s his will to condemn me, then it’s his will that I sin).
I agree and think that boxing oneself into either interferes with the Spirit's work to guide us.
And the bible agrees. Your sin is not forced by God.
And Calvinists agree, your sin is not forced by God. God need not do a thing to make a sinner sin. A sinner sins because he’s a sinner BY NATURE. Sin has so pervaded his being that sin is his natural inclination.
Who created that sinful NATURE? Certainly can't be God. But neither can it be man -- if there is no free will. So who?
Short answer: your great-grandfather Adam
The following is the section on free will from the London Baptist Confession of 1689, a Calvinist confession most Baptists believed up until early 20th century.
Chapter 9: Of Free Will
1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )
2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.
( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )
3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )
4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )
5. This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.
( Ephesians 4:13 )
The classic answer is found in the Garden of Eden account.
The world we have today represents a second chance for an all-sinner humanity.
Whodunit? Humanity as a group allowed the devil to do it to them by collectively swallowing his lie of being their own moral masters (i.e. “knowing good and evil.”) Yes I know this would require a consensus of the souls of all humanity, but that appears to be exactly what has happened. That is how Paul speaks of it: “we sinned” in Adam. This put us in a position of being God’s enemies.
If things were left at that, of course we would all go to hell. But a second chance is offered through Christ.
That does not answer the question at all. The question is: Does God want (desire, predestine) some people to go to hell or not?
If not, then Calvinism, which states that only *some* are predestined by God’s will to be saved, makes no sense at all; because that means that God *wants* some people to be damned.
If so, then it must have been — by necessity! — God’s will that man fall from grace; because without sin, He could not justify damning anybody.
Nobody that I know — Calvinist or Armenian — would debate much of what you cited from the the London Baptist Confession of 1689, that Adam fell from grace, and the consequences of that fall, that all men thereafter were born into sin and in need of salvation.
To reiterate, the question is: Does God want (desire, will, relish the fact) some people to be eternally damned or not?
Or, in other words, did an Armenian God weep when man fell from grace; or did a Calvinist God rejoice, because he *needed* the fall in order to separate Himself eternally from those He predestined to damnation?
Part of the confusion may arise from the eternal nature of mankind. I.e. there already is a part of humanity that “will not fit” in this universe.
The rules we see here as little hunks of fragile meat and bone aren’t what we might see from a vantage point outside the universe. A choice that we see a person as having made at, say, age 45 may have a counterpart outside the universe, where the rules are different and even the logical order of events does not need to follow the time line of the universe.
One thing this would explain very well would be deja vu. We recognized that we knew something was coming, once we encountered it.
But I don’t think we should dwell on such theories any longer than needed to perceive that they are “thought experiment” proofs that the dual realities of choice and destiny need not be mutually exclusive. God never wanted us to speculate on the realm that the occult appears to promise a view upon. We have quite enough duty to fulfill here, and we should shun pride at any particular theory.
A more directly biblical take: the psalmist wrote that the knowledge involved was “too wonderful” for him, seeing God enclose him round about and promising to welcome him into glory.
The healthy way to live the paradox is not to fret about it (another thing forbidden in the scripture) but to strive to choose the right things (starting with accepting the salvational offer of Christ) and then watch your destiny unfold as you do. You’ll get buffeted by Satan, will slip and fall from time to time as your spirit awakes further and further, but you’ll never be conquered.
Anyhow that’s how I pays my money and I takes my choice.
You are asking questions theologians have written long books about and pastors preach entire sermon series on. You can’t expect me to answer them to your satisfaction in a comment box. I don’t want to be dismissive or rude because you are asking good questions. That said, based on all of your comments I know you don’t understand what Calvinists actually believe. The truth is this: I’ve been right where you are.
For years every time the subject of Calvinism came up I had a list of pet verses I would throw out (2 Peter 3:9 was high on the list) and I then imagined I had said all that needed to be said to toss Calvinism into the trash bin. I now look back at my old self with shame. Not because I was wrong. I wasn’t raised in the reformed world and there wasn’t a single person around to teach me anything different, so I’m not ashamed I didn’t know. I am ashamed because I realize I vigorously defended a system of belief without really wrestling with the Scriptures myself. I was well into my thirties before I ever gave the matter it’s proper attention. Up until that point I had blindly accepted what I was taught and I utterly believed it without being a Berean.
One day a friend lovingly confronted me with the truths of God’s sovereignty and, after we debated the matter back and forth, it began to dawn on me that I was dead certain I was right about something I had not really studied. I had adopted the views of people I loved and trusted, but I had not done the heavy lifting for myself. It hit me like a ton of bricks when I realized that everything I understood about the Doctrines of Grace came from those who denied them. In other words, every thing I had ever read on the matter started with the presupposition that Calvinism was wrong. I had never let Calvinists speak for themselves. I had never wrestled with their view of the Scriptures.
I can try to answer questions, but I’m not willing to debate Calvinism here. I don’t have the energy and I don’t know that it’s all that productive. There are lots of online places where that battle rages. But I will say this much, I have yet to find even one person arguing against Reformed Theology who isn’t arguing against a caricature. I rarely find anyone on the other side who seems to even understand what we believe. I cringe because I know that was me for years. When the Lord finally opened my eyes, it changed my life and I will never be the same. I had never had real assurance until I understood God’s sovereignty in salvation. I could write an entire book on what that understanding did for me and ultimately what it did for my wife and children.
I am going out-of-town in the morning, but if you really want to understand what we believe, let me know and I can point you to excellent online resources.
God bless
Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I’ve been-there-done-that too, but from a different angle. For me it was always “whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Then I moved to a new town, finally found a church that taught that same message, and when a new pastor came on board, the place when Calvinist. Thirty years as a Baptist, and I had never even heard of Calvinism, nor Armenianism.
I have to say, Calvinism, at least the way my church was teaching it, threw me into a tailspin. Crisis even. They had me believing that even if I wanted to be saved, I might not be saved, because, well, after all, God is sovereign and I, as a man, have no free will to choose. He chose me or He rejected me, from even before creation itself, and I have no say in that matter. (But not to worry, of course, because if you are here at this church then that’s evidence He’s “calling” you. So keep your attendance — and those tithes! — up.)
From my posts tonight, you’re aware that I’ve come out of that now. I reject that teaching, as I cannot make it square with my reading of the Word.
Maybe that is not your version of Calvinism. On the other hand, the question I posted to you (Does God want or will or take satisfaction in condemning people to eternal damnation) is not a complicated whole-lotta-gray-area-there question. It is, in all honestly, a simple Yes or No question.
Sure, whether you start from the Yes or No position, the theology can get really complicated. But it all really does boil down to Yes or No — does God want ANYBODY to go to hell?
Safe travels. See you on the next Calvin/Arminian thread.
“They had me believing that even if I wanted to be saved, I might not be saved”
The non-elect don’t seek Him, they don’t want Him. We know that from Romans 3. We also know that Christ promised that ALL that Father gives the Son SHALL come. And then as if to answer the inevitable objections to what He had just said He continued, “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” If you come to Christ, if you seek Christ, you are elect and you shall be saved. It’s an iron-clad promise.
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
I can point to hundreds of passages today, but what first got my attention was John 3, John 6, John 10, and John 17 that persuaded me.
Before I was a Calvinist I utterly believed in Jesus and the Bible, but I didn’t believe in me enough to make a decision. I always had this nagging sense that I wasn’t sincere enough, but how do you measure your own sincerity? My theology put it in my hands instead of the hands of the Savior. In Psalms 110 we read “thy people Shall be willing in the day of Thy power.” What a blessing it was when I understood it was His work in me that had made me willing. And if He made me willing, He would keep me willing.
Take care, FRiend. I must go to bed. I’ve got a long drive ahead of me in only a few hours. I have stayed up way too late taking care of a few last minute things and listening to some of my favorite hymns.
As I tell my Arminian friends: Your problem with Calvinism is not predestination or the limited atonement, but with a faulty view of Sin. Men are "Dead in Tresspasses and Sin" just as the Apostle Paul says.
You will never understand these things unless you embrace what God says about Sin.
Hey Chaplain! Did you see this thread?
A year or two ago on a different thread I asked you point blank if you were Calvinist or Arminian in your belief. As I recall you described yourself as “Calvarminian” or something to that effect.
As I have meditated on this whole paradox I have come to appreciate your position more and more. I think I may have become one of them myself!
The writer referenced in the OP does a good job of grappling with this issue, in my opinion.
FRegards, and Blessings
Calminian strikes me as a fair way to balance the scripture.
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