Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN: AMERICA’S GREATEST WAR CRIMINAL
Southern Caucus ^ | ? | Ron Holland

Posted on 11/19/2001 6:28:43 AM PST by tberry

ABRAHAM LINCOLN: AMERICA’S GREATEST WAR CRIMINAL

By Ron Holland

from Southern Caucus http://www.southerncaucus.org

Abraham Lincoln should without a doubt be named America’s greatest war criminal. His war of invasion not only killed over 600,000 innocent Americans but it was obvious from his earlier speeches that he had previously advocated the prevalent constitutional right of democratic, state by state secession. Lincoln’s War also effectively overthrew the existing decentralized, limited federal government that had existed and governed well in the US since established by America’s founding fathers. Lincoln bastardized a respected federal government with limited powers into a dictatorial, uncontrollable Washington federal empire.

Because of Lincoln, the former American constitutional republic fell from a dream of liberty and limited government into the nightmare big government we have today without the earlier checks and balances of state sovereignty. After Lincoln, In foreign policy, the US forgot George Washington’s warning about neutrality and we became an aggressive military abroad until today we have troops defending the Washington Empire in over 144 nations around the world.

The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connections as possible. It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances, with any portion of the foreign world.—George Washington

Lincoln shares his war criminal actions with other well know tyrants that waged war on their own people. History shows us that politicians make war against their own citizens even more than against foreign nations. The reasons are often to establish and preserve their power base, as was the case in the Russian Revolution and the Mao Revolution. For others, like Hitler, it was misguided super patriotism and racism that brought death to tens of millions. Sadly, in the case of Abraham Lincoln’s war against the Confederacy and Southern civilians, it was all for money, company profits and government tariff revenues. A simple case of political pay back in return for the Northeastern manufacturing interests that supported the Republican Party and his campaign for the presidency. Early in his career, Abraham Lincoln was an honorable statesman who let election year politics and the special interests supporting his presidential campaign corrupt a once great man. He knew what he was doing was wrong and unconstitutional but succumbed, as in the case of many modern day politicians, to the allure of money, power and ego.

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. -- Abraham Lincoln January 12, 1848

This quote above shows Lincoln as a statesman 12 years before he plunged the United States into its most disastrous war. Suffering a death toll so high in death rates as a percentage of total population, his act of carnage ranks with the political genocides of Stalin, Lenin and Mao during their communist revolutions. A death toll so great that it dwarfs the American deaths in all of our many declared and undeclared wars before and since this American holocaust of death and destruction.

From the following quote you can see that later Lincoln radically adjusted his rhetoric to meet the needs and demands of his business establishment supporters and financial supporters.

No state, upon its own mere motion, can lawfully get out of the Union. Plainly, the central idea of secession, is the essence of anarchy. --Abraham Lincoln

Why the complete change in rhetoric and actions? Simple, to preserve high tariffs and corporate profits for the Northeastern business establishment. Lincoln who earlier in his career had obviously favored the right of peaceful secession, provoked a war that killed 600,000 Americans, as a pay back to the eastern manufacturing establishment that bankrolled his presidential campaign. These special interests would have suffered serious financial loss if a low tariff Confederate States of America were allowed to peacefully, democratically and constitutionally secede from the United States in lawful state constitutional conventions of secession which were identical to the ratification conventions when they had joined the Union. Thus the real reasons for the death and destruction of Lincoln’s War were covered up and hidden by historians who continue, even today, to deny the truth and hide the ultimate costs of Lincoln’s American holocaust. While Lincoln’s death toll is small in comparison to total deaths by Mao, Lenin, Stalin and Hitler, there are many similarities between these men. In the Russian Civil War, from 1917 - 1922 around 9 million died under Lenin and we must add another 20 million under Stalin from 1929 to 1939. The Mao communist regime in China killed 44 to 70 million Chinese from 1949 – 1975.

Still the US constitutional republic, as established by our founding fathers, was in effect destroyed by Lincoln’s unconstitutional war just as surely as Mao and Lenin over threw the existing Chinese and Russian governments. The multitude of Lincoln apologists would say that this is just another Confederate argument certainly not accepted by most historians. I might counter that the opinions and books of these "so called" establishment historians who live off my tax dollars through government funding at liberal controlled universities and think tanks are prejudiced towards Lincoln and Washington DC. They are no different from the official government historians in China, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Their job is to lie to the American people and cover up a true and honest account of our history in order to support the government and political system in power.

History shows us that a fair and honest discussion of Lincoln’s wartime actions will not be possible as long as the Washington political establishment remains in power. Since Lincoln, the Washington Empire has reigned supreme and omnipotent and for this reason, establishment historians have never honestly debated the Lincoln war crimes.

Consider this. Was a fair and honest account of Lenin or Stalin written and published during the Soviet Communist regime? Of course not. Could a less than worshipful history of Hitler’s Third Reich have been published until after 1945? No! Even today, with only nominal communist control of China, an honest appraisal of Mao’s revolution and crimes against the Chinese people still is not possible. It is no different today in the United States than it is in Red China or was in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Just as Lenin’s statue could not be toppled in Red Square until after the fall of the Soviet Communist government, or the truth about Hitler couldn’t be told until after defeat of Nazi Germany, it is the same here in the United States. It is my hope that someday, in the not too distant future, a true account of the war crimes of Lincoln will be discussed, debated and even acknowledged. The Lincoln Memorial should be remodeled to show the horrors of "Lincoln the War Criminal" with the opportunity for all to visit Washington and learn how war crimes, genocide and holocaust are not just crimes that foreign politicians commit. Government and political tyranny can and has happened here just like in Germany, China and the Soviet Union and that through education and honest history, it will never happen here again.

In the future, may we have the opportunity to learn about the Nazi holocaust at the United States National Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington and then have the chance to visit the Lincoln War Crimes and American Holocaust Museum a few blocks away. One will state for all the world that NEVER AGAIN will a tyrant or government be allowed to target, exterminate and destroy an ethnic, racial or religious minority. The other will pledge NEVER AGAIN in America will we allow a president or government to make unconstitutional war against Sovereign states or their citizens and then cover up the truth up for over 145 years.

We should start today with an honest appraisal of what Lincoln really did to Dixie, how our black and white innocent noncombatants suffered under his total war policy against civilians. Finally we should address the cost in lives, lost liberty and federal taxes the citizens of the US have had to endure because our limited constitutional republic was destroyed.

Abraham Lincoln was a great man, a smart politician and he could have been an excellent president, had he considered the short-term costs of his high tariff and the long time price every American had to pay for his war of invasion. It is time to stop worshipping Lincoln and educate the public about the war crimes he committed against the citizens of the Southern States so this WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial
KEYWORDS: abelincoln; dixie; dixielist; goebbels; mediawingofthednc; presidents; prozacchewables; wot
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 401-420421-440441-460461-468 next last
To: billbears; 2Trievers
The Boston Mob

Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. -- St. Luke, xi:47.

In 1831 Garrison founded the New England Anti-Slavery Society at Boston, and began to lecture in its behalf. This was followed by the formation of a great number of such bodies, state and local, including the national society founded at Philadelphia in 1833. For some years associations were established at the rate of more than one a day, and a single society sometimes numbered its members by the thousand. Garrison's talents for public speaking stood him in good stead in promoting the formation of these bodies. He was not an orator, but the force, earnestness and logic of his addresses almost always carried his audiences with him.

The first great contest in which Garrison had to engage was between the "immediatists" and the American Colonization Society, an institution whose chief function was to put the conscience of the people at rest under the delusion that the Negroes could be deported to Hayti or Liberia, but which in reality was only effective in removing freedmen whose efforts on behalf of their brethren in bonds were feared by the slave-holders, and the latter were by no means unfriendly to this movement. Garrison exposed the plan thoroughly in a pamphlet published in 1832, and a twelvemonth later, on a special mission to England, he won over the principal Abolitionists there to immediatism as opposed to colonization, including the venerable Wilberforce.

Six years afterwards, on another visit to Great Britain, he had the satisfaction of securing the adhesion of Clarkson, who hitherto had been induced by misrepresentation to support the colonizationists. In America it soon became clear, owing to Garrison's exposure of it, that colonization meant the indefinite continuance of slavery. Among the humors of his first stay in London was an inner-party at which his host on receiving him and hearing his name lifted up his hands and exclaimed, "Why, my dear sir, I thought that you were a black man, and I have consequently invited this company of ladies and gentlemen to be present to welcome Mr. Garrison, the black advocate of emancipation from America!" He had in fact supposed that no white American could plead for the slave as he had done in the Liberator. This was a compliment to the editor indeed! Garrison attended Wilberforce's funeral at Westminster Abbey, an humble follower in a distinguished throng, but destined to do even more for the African race than the great Englishman.

On landing at New York on his return from England in 1833, Garrison was present at a meeting called for the purpose of organizing a City Anti-Slavery Society. The enemies of the movement had issued circulars calling for a pro-slavery demonstration at the same time and place, with the object of breaking up the meeting, and a mob of drunken blackguards came together in consequence and succeeded in bringing the meeting to a violent close. The Courier and Enquirer had much to do with fomenting the riot on this occasion and the Commercial Advertiser and other "respectable" newspapers joined in denouncing Garrison.

The Evening Post said: "We should be sorry that any invasion of his personal rights should occur to give him consequence and to increase the number of his associates." When Garrison reached Boston, he found that there, too, circulars had preceded him, calling upon the public to meet in front of his office on a given evening armed with plenty of tar and feathers, but although a dense mob breathing threatenings which foreboded a storm came together, they dispersed without doing any damage.

The angry temper of the Northern public had also been shown elsewhere. In Connecticut, in 1833, Prudence Crandall, who had established a school for colored girls, was shut out of the churches, shops and public conveyances; her well was filled with manure, and her house smeared with filth and at last set on fire. At Boston the directors of the Athenaeum library excluded Mrs. Child from using it because she was an Abolitionist. When anti-slavery sentiment made itself audible at Lane Theological Seminary, the trustees, with the assent of the president, Dr. Lyman Beecher, suppressed all debate on the subject.

The Rev. Dr. Leonard Bacon accused candidates for elective office who were willing to array themselves under the banner of the Abolitionists, with being "political desperadoes;" and the American Bible Society actually refused a gift of five thousand dollars which was to be devoted to the distribution of Bibles among the slaves! The great church assemblies showed their friendship for slavery in many ways, and a Presbyterian elder did not hesitate to say in the General Assembly of that denomination at Pittsburg, in 1835, that the church was the patron of slavery and responsible for its cruelties. Throughout the whole period of agitation against slavery not a Catholic priest nor an Episcopal clergyman came forward as a friend of the oppressed, with one possible exception. They were engaged in the time-honored pastime of passing by on the other side.

Pro-slavery meetings were held in New York and other cities and pro-slavery riots broke out in many parts of the North. A great meeting was held at Faneuil Hall, Boston, on August 21st, 1835, to protest against Abolition. The principal men of the city took part and the mayor was in the chair. One of the orators turned to the portrait of Washington and invoked his example on behalf of the slave-holders. The sum of three thousand dollars was offered in the South for the apprehension of Arthur Tappan, the New York philanthropist. At Concord (auspicious name!) Whittier was pelted with stones and mud. A Harvard professor lost his chair on account of his Abolition sentiments, and leading Northern publishers took pains to assure the South that they would print nothing hostile to slavery. This ignominious subservience to the slave power seemed to be almost universal.

Amid such opposition and although "all pandemonium was let loose," Garrison became only more confident and determined. Four men, he tells us, are enough to revolutionize the world. Financial difficulties continually beset his path, but he always succeeded in surmounting them, and despite many a gale, the Liberator was able to proceed on its way. But the most conspicuous pro-slavery demonstration was in the event directed against Garrison himself, and was the immediate result of the antagonism of the enemies of Abolition towards George Thompson, a distinguished English Abolitionist, who was lecturing in America, and whose interference with our "domestic" institutions was most offensive to them. It was announced that he would address a meeting of ladies on the afternoon of October 21st, 1835, at a hall adjoining the offices of the Anti-Slavery Society and the Liberator, at 46 Washington street, Boston.

Placards were posted in public places urging good citizens to bring the "infamous foreign scoundrel to the tar-kettle before dark." In response to this several thousand angry men gathered in the street at the time set for the meeting, but Thompson had been wisely kept away. The women showed the greatest coolness and courage and went quietly on with their proceedings, although the door of the hall and the stairways of the building were thronged by a threatening and unruly mob. The mayor arrived upon the scene and endeavored to disperse the crowd outside by announcing that the Englishman was not in the city, but they soon showed that they did not care on whom they vented their wrath, provided only that it was on an Abolitionist.

At last they broke in through the door of the Anti-Slavery Society office, where Garrison was calmly writing a letter. Some constables succeeded, however, in getting the rioters out of the house before further violence was done, and the mayor, going to the meeting-room, ordered the ladies to leave the building, as he would be unable to protect them longer. They adjourned accordingly to the house of one of their number, marching out two and two, each white woman taking a colored one with her. "When we emerged into the open daylight," says one of the number, "there went up a roar of rage and contempt. They slowly gave way as we came out. As far as we could look either way the crowd extended -- evidently of the so-called 'wealthy and respectable,' 'the moral worth,' the 'influence and standing.'"

"Garrison! Garrison!" was now the cry. "We must have Garrison! Out with him! Lynch him!" The mob demanded that the anti-slavery society signboard be removed. The mayor at once ordered it to be taken down, and it was speedily torn to pieces. The mayor now besought Garrison to escape by the rear of the building, and the latter, preceded by a friend, dropped from a back window on the roof of a shed and sought refuge in a carpenter shop on the street behind; but his retreat was already cut off. The workmen in the shop did what they could for him, shutting the front door and keeping the crowd back until Garrison could hide himself upstairs, but in a few minutes the ruffians broke in and had no difficulty in finding his place of concealment. They seized him and dragged him to the window, intending to throw him out, but someone below in the street shouted, "Don't kill him outright," and, changing their minds, they tied a rope round him and let him down by a ladder.

Fortunately he was received at the bottom by two strong men who were determined that the fame of Boston should not be stained by a lynching. They succeeded, with superhuman efforts, in guiding him through the crowd, in which it was evident now that Garrison had some sympathizers, to the door of the neighboring city hall, over the very ground where the first martyrs of the Revolution were slain in the Boston massacre of 1770, and where their degenerate descendants were now taking the part of the oppressors. The mayor had already reached the building. "On my way from the Liberator office to the city hall," he says, "several people said to me, 'They are going to hang him! For God's sake, save him!'" Garrison was conducted with much difficulty to the mayor's office, and as he was now bareheaded and half naked, the friends of the mayor were obliged to lend him clothes to cover him. They decided that the only way to save him was to commit him to jail as a disturber of the peace!

A carriage was sent to the door to deceive the mob, and while they waited, another carriage bore him from a door in the rear to the city jail. But the people, when they discovered the ruse, rushed upon the vehicle and tried to drag him out. They clung to the wheels, dashed open the doors, seized hold of the horses and tried to upset the carriage. But the police did their best, the driver plied his whip on the horses and on the rioters, and by some miracle Garrison was deposited at the jail in safety and locked up in a cell. On the morrow he left Boston and did not return until the fury of the storm had spent itself, but even then he was forced to change his residence, as his former landlord feared that his house might be destroyed.

The biographers of Garrison call attention to the attitude of the authorities during this episode. "Law officers in abundance overlooked the scene of the mob; the legislators, in special session at the state house -- John G. Whittier among them -- hastened down to become spectators. Law was everywhere, but justice was fallen in the streets..... Wendell Phillips, commencing practice in his native city, and not versed, perhaps, in the riot statutes, wondered why his regiment was not called out." An alderman, when questioned while the riot was in progress, "intimated that, though it was the duty of the mayor to put down the riot, the city government did not very much disapprove of the mob to put down such agitators as Garrison and those like him." The editor of the New England Galaxy overheard a justice of the peace remark: "I hope they will catch him (Garrison) and tar and feather him; and though I would not assist, I can tell them five dollars are ready for the man that will do it."

The press, secular and religious, unanimously showed its opposition to the Abolitionists in this matter. The Daily Advertiser considered "the whole transaction as the triumph of the law over lawless violence," and the Christian Watchman (save the mark!), a Baptist journal, declared that the Abolitionists were as culpable as the mob.

In the pages of the Liberator Garrison described the riot, and attacked its promoters and sympathizers with his customary force and ability. During the danger he had not for a moment lost his composure, as all who saw him bore witness, friend and foe alike. "Throughout the whole of the trying scene," he testifies himself, "I felt perfectly calm -- nay, very happy. It seemed to me that it was indeed a blessed privilege thus to suffer in the cause of Christ. Death did not present one repulsive feature. The promises of God sustained my soul, so that it was not only divested of fear, but ready to sing for joy." This same courage enabled him to stigmatize the outrage in his paper according to its deserts, and never for an instant did he alter his tone from any sense of fear. Harriet Martineau, who was visiting America at this time, gives her impressions of Garrison's appearance and manner. "It was a countenance glowing with health, and wholly expressive of purity, animation and gentleness." She found "sagacity the most striking attribute of his conversation," which was "of the most practical cast."

The year 1837 showed a marked improvement in New England sentiment. While it is true that the Congregational Church protested against the discussion of "certain topics" in meeting-houses, and that the Massachusetts Anti-Slavery Society could not find a suitable hall or church to meet in at Boston and was obliged to organize over a stable, still the legislature went so far as to permit it to make use of the state house. This was a strong indication that the Abolitionists had become a power to reckon with. Twelve hundred anti-slavery societies were now in operation, and the foul murder of the Rev. E. P. Lovejoy, at Alton, Illinois, by a mob which thus exhibited its disapproval of his anti-slavery journal, did much to stir up Abolition sentiment, already stimulated by many similar outrages in the South. Lovejoy's assassination brought Wendell Phillips into the ranks of the Garrisonians, and he declared himself in an eloquent speech at Faneuil Hall at a meeting called to express the indignation of all that was best in Boston. But still the low passions of the friends of slavery continued to show themselves at the North. In 1838, during a convention of Abolitionists, Pennsylvania Hall, a building recently erected in Philadelphia for these and other philanthropic meetings, was burned to the ground by a pro-slavery mob; and it was only by calling out the militia that a similar crime was prevented in Boston, where another hall had been built for the same purposes.

441 posted on 11/23/2001 9:21:39 PM PST by Elihu Burritt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 421 | View Replies]

To: Elihu Burritt
Yep, Yankees were a real intolerant bunch, I agree. So what's your point?
442 posted on 11/23/2001 9:28:42 PM PST by bluecollarman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 441 | View Replies]

To: Elihu Burritt
BTTT
443 posted on 11/23/2001 9:35:08 PM PST by 2Trievers
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 441 | View Replies]

To: stainlessbanner
he is clearly on the record favoring black equality and black suffrage later in the war

Like BillBears always says, why didn't lincoln free the slaves in 1861 prior to the war? Actions speak louder than words. (No cut and paste-o-rama, please).

I suppose you are skimming my Lincoln quotes or not reading them at all.

Lincoln is on the record well before the war saying that blacks had a right to the fruits of their own labors.

Lincoln also said before the war that any intimation that he favored black equality was just a fantastic arrangement of words by which a man could prove a horse chestnut to be a chestnut horse.

His ideas grew over time. That is pretty amazing right there. Some people seem incapable of learning, but not Lincoln; Lincoln came to respect the ability of black soldiers and said quite plainly that the rebellion could not be subdued without their aid. Yes, that is right.

As to why Lincoln didn't free the slaves in 1861; Lord, love a sinner. Lincoln made it very plain that he knew he had no power to affect slavery as president.

Listen very carefully: In his first inaurgual address, he made plain that he would support a constitutional amendment to protect the domestic institutions of the states.

Yes, that is right. This was the famous "first" 13th amendment.

Despite this attempt at compromise, the so-called seceded states did everything they could to precipitate a war. Don't forget that when Lincoln took the oath of offfce, seven states were -already- in open rebellion

Lincoln personally detested slavery, and felt it gave the lie to true freedom in this country. It made people in other countries laugh at our Declaration of Independence. Lincoln didn't like that. He sincerely wanted freedom for all.

Lincoln also well knew that as president he had no power to interfere with slavery in the states. It was strictly a state matter. What the slave holders feared was --future- actions action by the federal government. There might comea time when the Constitution -was- amended to eliminate slavery. And that is why they bolted; and they made it very plain that this was why they were denouncing and foreswearing the old flag and the government of Washington, Madison and the other framers.

Here is Lincoln in 1858:

"I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which in my judgment will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong, having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. [Loud cheers.] I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects---certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man. [Great applause.]

August 21, 1858

Sounds like a typical politician to me.

"I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution-which amendment, however, I have not seen-has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service. To avoid misconstruction of what I have said, I depart from my purpose not to speak of particular amendments so far as to say that, holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable."

March 4, 1861

What else do you want from Lincoln? Poor Lincoln, he gets excoriated by revisionist historians no matter what he does. As this exceprt from his first inaugural shows, he cared nothing for blacks.

Oh wait, he told Frederick Douglass there was "no man in the country whose opinion I value more than yours."

He DID propose voting rights for black soldiers.

Which is the true Lincoln? As I have tried to suggest, Lincoln grew and changed And those who cherry pick his writings, be they black or white, are easily exposed.

Walt

444 posted on 11/24/2001 12:39:59 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 435 | View Replies]

To: billbears
Walt!!! Finally you got it!!! Later in the war. By late 1862, lincoln had lost the support from his other avenues and HAD to turn to the abolitionists(even though he IS quoted as not wanting to be painted with the 'abolitionist brush' in 1860).

You simply cannot show that in the record. The Union army, and the power of the American people to prosecute the war against the rebellion grew and grew until the rebellion was crushed out. It never slackened. You might be interested to know that only 6% of the Union Army was provided for by the draft. The percentage in the CSA army was much higher. And of course it was the CSA army that melted away through desertion, not the Union Army.

The rebellion really just fizzled out.

It is also common knowledge that there was much initial resitance to the Emancipatioin Proclamation in the army, and the country generally. It was part of Lincoln's genius that he knew when he make decisions of this type. And in this case, he rode out the storm of opposition to the EP. He wrote in April, 1864:

"When in March, and May and July 1862 I made earnest, and succcessive appeals to the border states to favor compensated emancipation, I believed the indispensable neccessity for military emancipation and arming the blacks would come, unless averted by that measure. They declined the proposition; and I was, in my best judgment, driven to the alternative of either surrendering the Union, and with it the Constitution, or of laying strong hand upon the colored element. I chose the latter. In choosing it, I hoped for greater gain than loss; but of this, I was not entirely confident. More than a year of trial now shows no loss by it in our foreign relations, none in our home popular sentiment, none in our white military force, no loss any how or any where. On the contrary, it shows a gain of quite one hundred and thirty thousand soldiers, seamen and laborers. These are palpable facts, about which there can be no cavilling. We have the men; and we could not have them without the measure."

Who needed the abolitionists? Certainly not Lincoln.

You neo-cons make all these crazed charges and then you never back them up in the record.

He picked up their chant and black equality and black suffrage became his rallying cry ONLY AFTER Sept 22,1862, the date the Emancipation Proclamation was released!! Before that time, he could have cared less for the slave. It was over taxation plain and simple. But that tack only worked so long. So he had to pick up something else to chant over the masses. Slavery!!

That is simply not true. Lincoln --always-- oposed slavery. Always. His absolute, don't-give-an-inch position was that slavery not be allowed to extend into the territories.

He knew that was a first step to the death of slavery.

The slave holders knew it too.

Walt

445 posted on 11/24/2001 12:53:04 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 439 | View Replies]

To: WhiskeyPapa
Ok, Walt, I'll join the cut & paste fest:

"I judge Mr. Lincoln by his acts, his violations of the Law, his overthrow of Liberty in the Northern States. I judge Mr. Lincoln by his words, his deeds, and so judging him, I am unwilling to trust Abraham Lincoln with the future of this country." - Wendell Phillips (1864)

"I supported President Lincoln. I believed his war policy would be the only way to save the country, but I see my mistake. I visited Washington a few weeks ago and I saw the corruption of the present Administration and so long as Abraham Lincoln and his Cabinet are in power so long will the war continue, and for what? For the preservation of the Consititution of the Union? No! But for the sake of politicians and governmental contractors." - JP Morgan

I'll hold to my belief that this man was no Christian and had an agenda that usurped the constitution our forefathers created. I'll give you a bone, he probably thought he was doing the right thing.

446 posted on 11/24/2001 5:38:45 AM PST by stainlessbanner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 444 | View Replies]

To: Restorer
I just object to the continuous attacks on the integrity of Northern heroes when similar attacks are not made on Southern heroes.

Don't jump to conclusions! Are you joking? Have you read about the attacks on Southern heroes? People are destroying statues, canceling Southern memorial days, and slandering their good names. Lee, Jackson, Davis, Forrest....read the news.

447 posted on 11/24/2001 5:51:13 AM PST by stainlessbanner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 417 | View Replies]

To: stainlessbanner
I'll hold to my belief that this man was no Christian and had an agenda that usurped the constitution our forefathers created.

Only God can know what lies in a man's heart.

As for the other, you are welcome to your belief, but it is not supported in the record. Lincoln's beliefs on the nature of the government were very close to what Washington, Madison, and the first two Chief Justices thought; but you are welcome to your opinion.

Walt

448 posted on 11/24/2001 6:31:53 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 446 | View Replies]

To: billbears
the so-called tribunals of W's are an ATTEMPT (& imVho an unsucessful attempt!) to use courts martial to try terrorists, w/o placing the terrs under the protection of the hague & geneva accords as belligerents/foreign troops.

in lincoln's case the attempt to use tribunals was to both not recognise CSA POWs as belligerents AND, at least in the minds of his supporters in damnyankeeland, to ameliorate the mis-treatment and MURDERS of CS POWs.

for dixie,sw

449 posted on 11/24/2001 6:50:39 AM PST by stand watie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 330 | View Replies]

To: stainlessbanner
Like BillBears always says, why didn't lincoln free the slaves in 1861 prior to the war?

Because he had no Constitutional authority to. Slavery was legal under the Constitution. It took the 13th Amendment to end Slavery in the United States. The Emanicapion Proclamation only freed slaves in areas in revolt that fell under Federal Military Control. They were legally no longer states and therefore the President, as Commander in Chief of the armed forces, had the ability to issue executive orders concerning the law in those areas.

The fact that you ask the question above means that you have a lot of learning to do.

450 posted on 11/24/2001 6:53:46 AM PST by Ditto
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 435 | View Replies]

Comment #451 Removed by Moderator

Comment #452 Removed by Moderator

Comment #453 Removed by Moderator

To: Elihu Burritt

"Half of Sherman's Army was made up of southerners. You are just citing their behaviour. They were tough, and they were well cultured in the southern arts of handling blacks."

I believe you got your numbers wrong by a large margin. And whether a few of the Union boys came from the south or not ... they marched with the Union, they represented the Union, and they left an everlasting legacy of hatred for the North!

What Sherman's men did was nothing short of criminal conduct ... Sherman himself even admitted that! "Honest Abe" looked the other way until the reports became too numerous to count. Then even he had to say something. Here is your proof -

'On August 4 (1863) W.T. Sherman in camp on Big Black River, Mississippi, wrote to Grant at Vicksburg, "The amount of burning, stealing, and plundering done by our army makes me ashamed of it. I would quit the service if I could, because I fear that we are drifting throught the worst sort of vandalism...You and I and every commander must go through the war justly chargeable with crimes at which we blush. [italics are mine]

'President Lincoln on August 14th, 1864, telegraphed Grant at City Point, "The Secretary of War and I concur that you had better confer with General [R.E.] Lee and stipulate for a mutual discontinuance of house burning and other destruction of private property". On August 17 Grant replied to Lincoln, "The best that can be done is to publish a prohibitory order against burning private property."

As to your assertion that it was Southerners against southerners is mostly air ... 'General C.B. Fisk in Saint Joseph (Mo.) on August 3 confessed to General W.S. Rosecrans, Saint Louis, "The Colorado and Kansas troops did commit many outrages."

The list of Army Units mentioned is as follows - 18th Ohio, 18th Missouri Infantry (Union), 8th Connecticut, 8th, Illinois, 8th Ohio Cavalry, 8th Tennessee Cav (Union), 81st Ohio, 89th Indiana, 82nd Ohio, 11th Kansas Cav, 11th Indiana Regt, 11th Michigan Cav., 11th Pennsylvania Cav., 15th Illinois Cav, 15th Kansas Cav, 15th Pennsylvania Ca, 5th Kansas Cav, 5th Massachussettes Cav., 5th Mass. Colored Cav, 5th Michigan cav, 5th Rhode Island Heavy Art., 5th US Colored Troops, 50th Illinois, 58th New York, 58th PA., 55th Massachussettes (colored), 52nd Ind, 56th U.S. Colored Inf, First AL Cav (Union), 1st AR Cav. (Union), 1st Batt. NY Mounted rifles, 1 NE Cav, 1st NH Cav, 1st NM Cav and others. Perhaps the Southerners may've made up 1/8 of the invading army! You have Corps and Brigades of Union soldiers involved. 5th, 10th, 14th, 1st, 6th, 16th, 2nd, 3rd, 13th. This list is not all inclusive, but gives you a list of most who were responsible.

454 posted on 11/24/2001 7:32:57 AM PST by Colt .45
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 433 | View Replies]

To: stainlessbanner
"I judge Mr. Lincoln by his acts, his violations of the Law, his overthrow of Liberty in the Northern States. I judge Mr. Lincoln by his words, his deeds, and so judging him, I am unwilling to trust Abraham Lincoln with the future of this country." - Wendell Phillips (1864)

Listen, I'm busy watching my Tennessee Volunteers slam dunk Vandy.

But if you stop and think, you'll know that Wendell Phillips was one of those abolitionists you suggested that Lincoln was sucking up to.

Your position is nonsense. It is not even logical.

Walt

455 posted on 11/24/2001 2:29:27 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 446 | View Replies]

To: bluecollarman
Answer me this... If I concede all of your points. The war was about slavery, and any other you may argue. Why would you forbid me to honor my heritage as I understand it? Do we have to agree? You wish me to give up my freedom of expression and association? You wish for me to dishonor what I consider to be noble men dying for a cause they believed in? Why? Because they were on the losing side of the war? What would you allow me? I warn you... today they come for the "Battle Flag", and "Dixie", tomorrow it is "Columbus Day" and eventually it is "Old Glory".

Please point out, in any post I have ever made on this forum, where I have suggested that Southern honor and valor should not be respected or that your right to argue about what the cause of secession was should be restricted.

I myself probably have Confederate soldiers in my ancestry and more on my wife's side. I respect that these men firmly believed they were fighting for the right. I just happen to disagree with them, and apparently with you, as to whether they were correct in this belief.

However, I absolutely stand with you that these men should be honored for their valor, which was almost unparalleled in the history of the world.

I do strongly object to those Southern partisans who apparently believe that the best case for their cause can be made by denigrating those on the other side. This is equally wrong.

Why cannot we recognize that most, on both sides, fought for what they thought was right? That incredible courage and nobility was exhibited by many on both sides? That the great tragedy of this war was that good men fought and died on both sides? It would have been much less of a tragedy, in the true sense of the term, if it had been a battel of true good against true evil.

BTW, I do not belive, nor have I ever suggested, that the battle flag of the South should not be flown as an expression of respect for the valor and honor of those who fought under it, regardles of how much I disagree with the cause it represented.

456 posted on 11/24/2001 5:58:10 PM PST by Restorer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 437 | View Replies]

To: stainlessbanner
Don't jump to conclusions! Are you joking? Have you read about the attacks on Southern heroes? People are destroying statues, canceling Southern memorial days, and slandering their good names. Lee, Jackson, Davis, Forrest....read the news.

And I equally oppose attacks on these men. With the possible exception of Forrest, who was at least arguably not a particularly noble person, although he obviously was a truly great soldier.

The others I consider to be great, although misguided, Americans.

457 posted on 11/24/2001 6:09:19 PM PST by Restorer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 447 | View Replies]

To: Restorer
My true fight is not with those who merely wish to argue the merits of the war. Debate is a good thing. Please be aware that some posters to these threads would also seek to limit my freedoms, if only by not defending my right to have these freedoms. I would suspect it is the loss of these freedoms that fans the passion of many posters for the South.

You believe the North was right and the South was wrong, I disagree but respect your opinion. I would fight along side of you if your freedom to think that was attacked. That is how it is supposed to work. IMHO you will find many on your side of the issue that DO NOT share that view.

If I have wrongly placed you in that group, I truly apologize.

458 posted on 11/24/2001 7:30:04 PM PST by bluecollarman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 456 | View Replies]

To: Ditto
Because he had no Constitutional authority to.

Hallelujah! Sounds like YOU have some learning to do, Kemosabe.

459 posted on 11/25/2001 6:48:03 PM PST by stainlessbanner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 450 | View Replies]

To: stainlessbanner
Hallelujah! Sounds like YOU have some learning to do, Kemosabe.

Well why don't you 'splane it to me Tonto? You're the guy who asked the stupid question in the first place which exposed you ignorance of the Constitution. That same Constitution gave Lincoln all the power he needed to put down a rebellion and to issue executive orders to the military occupying rebel territory.

460 posted on 11/26/2001 7:53:51 AM PST by Ditto
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 459 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 401-420421-440441-460461-468 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson