Myth: The Founders Established A Wall of Separation Between Church and State

excerpt from the book Five Lies of the Century pp. 15-30 | 1995 | David T. Moore

[wwjdn]

Feminism is but one pagan religion. PC is the bigest, which by the way was started by feminists. Remeber the sexual revolution of the 60's? Not started by men....

[g'nad]

Outstanding sirgawain...you need to send this Helen Thomas...but then, what does the bibe say about casting pearls before swine....

[SusanUSA]

I'm sorry for the delay. I typed a response and then lost it all.

Susan, no one is saying that the structure of our Nation wasn't influenced by Christianity. It was also influenced by Judaism, English law, Roman and Greek philosophies of citizenship and republicanism, and the development of legal systems going back to the Code of Hammurabi. Yet no one ever calls us a "Jewish Nation", a "British Nation", a "Roman Nation" or a "Hammurabic Nation".

Maybe I wasn't clear in the first half of my reply. I'm finding the debate as to what English Common Law was based on very interesting, as I am currently studying English Common Law.While I understand Jefferson's argument, there is still so much evidence that can't just be passed over.

ALFRED THE GREAT (849-899). Saxon king and 'wise lawgiver" who reigned in south-western England. Alfred was taught Latin (he visited Rome in 853 and 855) and implemented a number of important legal reforms which were later emulated in other parts of England. He decided to, in his own words, "gather the old laws of the Saxons together and commanded many of those to be written which our forefathers held, those which to me seemed good" thus putting an end to the discretionary and, at times, corrupt justice then meted out by local priests/judges. This first attempt at putting the law to paper in England was a very religious exercise and began with the Ten Commandments .

Patrick Henry prepared for his career as an attorney by studying the Bible and its application to law. So did James Madison. Charles Finney decided to be an attorney, but while reading the law books of his days he was confronted with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and gave up law to become an evangelist. In fact, the second most popular book at the time of the American War for Independence was Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England, a four-volume text predicated on the symbiotic link between Holy Scripture and law.

But by the end of the 19th Century, America’s leading jurists had set themselves on a course to obscure and deny the hand of God in this nation’s legal system. Prior to 1900, American lawyers studied the law from a book by William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in 1767. The first 140 pages of this book outlined the biblical precepts and principles that controlled English common law; the rest of the book detailed how this law was being interpreted in England. America’s Founders used Black-stone’s principles to undergird the legal system of their emerging nation.

In 1870, however, legal trendsetters under Dean Christopher Columbus Langdell at the new Harvard Law School deliberately substituted evolutionary legal principles for the fixed, uniform and universal laws of God, which Blackstone’s Commentaries had previously enshrined in American jurisprudence. Charles Darwin had published his earth-shattering book on evolution in 1859, and the evolutionary principles outlined there for biology were already beginning to infiltrate other areas of learning

July 4, 1821 - John Quincy Adams:

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. From the day of the Declaration ... they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct."

"Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the Foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"

1833 - Noah Webster:

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles ... This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions and government ... the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws."

Even today the study of law includes courses such as:

Common Law (3) An historical survey of the Anglo-American common law, emphasizing its biblical foundations and principles in light of current legal issues and institutions

Regier asks "what is a Christian Nation?", then never really answers the question from his perspective. I would submit that it is a nation where Christianity is given a place of legal primacy and the Bible is considered on a par with the founding documents. A place where indeed, the rules of the Bible may be codified into law for no other reason than their presence in the book. A place where laws contrary to the Bible may be struck down, for that reason alone.

As for whether our country was, at one time, a Christian State, I would say, "no" for the reasons you gave.The United States of America is not a Christian country or state. The writers of the Constitution said, very wisely, that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In other words, there will be no state church (such as the Church of England), but the people may worship according to their wishes, anytime and anywhere. But while our STATE wasn't, and isn't, Christian in the literal sense, I would submit that we were founded as a Christian nation, in the sense of nation defined as, "The people of a nation or country or a community of persons bound by a common heritage".

1891 - The U.S. Supreme Court restates that America is a "Christian Nation."

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian ... this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation ... we find everywhere a clear definition of the same truth ... this is a Christian nation."

First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay, wrote:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." (1816)

John Adams wrote:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Thomas Jefferson, the man "blamed" for the wall of separation between church and state said:

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?"

James Madison:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

These can not be discounted, either. The First Ammendment has, and is currently, being used to remove all traces of God from as many areas of our public lives as possible. We are ignoring the warnings our founders gave at our own peril.

[rwfromkansas]

Explain to me why we should just toss out anything the founders said because they owned slaves. That is what I want to know. Instead of addressng their views on the topic of church and state, the poster chose to go the ignorant route and just spout off that the founders opinions don't even matter since they were slave-holders.

[WyldKard]

Explain to me why we should just toss out anything the founders said because they owned slaves. That is what I want to know. Instead of addressng their views on the topic of church and state, the poster chose to go the ignorant route and just spout off that the founders opinions don't even matter since they were slave-holders.

I don't think that was QUITE the point he was trying to make. The way I saw it, at least, was that prevailing attitudes change. At one point, having slaves was acceptable, and they were even counted as a "fraction of a man" in the censuses. Those attitudes no longer exist, at least in this country.

Thus, I further interperate the argument to be that he feels that pushing Christanity "into the background" or coming up with a more atheistic viewpoint in public schools is just an evolution in viewpoint. Which one could argue yes...it is. But does that make it a good one?

Frankly, I abhor public schools anyhow. I think anyone who expects to give their children a good education either needs to homeschool or send them to the parochial school of their choice. On the other hand, the Government is going too far with public schools in their mad dash to "scrub them down"...but what do you expect? These places are merely FedGov Indoctrination Centers anyhow....

[tberry]

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here." Patrick Henry

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with those of Christianity." John Quincy Adams

"The Bible is the foundation upon which our republic rests." Andrew Jackson

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." John Jay, first Supreme Court Justice

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the redeemer of mankind... It is impossible that it should be otherwise and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." Supreme Court, 1892 Church of the Holy Trinity v.s. United States

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." George Washington

[Looking for Diogenes]

"Number 20, please."
"Harold K. Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! (Boston: Lamb and Lamb Tractarian Society, 1939) 32-3."

This is quotation has been thoroughly discredited. See below.

Phony James Madison Quotations

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not
 upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments."

-- Complete Fabrication; sentiments not found in any known Madison writings and "inconsistent with everything we know about Madison's views on religion and government," say noted Madison historians

This is a complete fabrication that dates back to the 1950s. A variation of this fabrication -- and there are several -- was read into the Congressional Record by Representative Dannemeyer on October 7, 1992. Another variation was later read into the Congressional Record by Florida Representative Scarborough on March 5, 1997, in defense of Judge Roy Moore's practice of posting a condensed version of the Protestant variant of the first tables of stone rendition of the Hebrew Decalogue on his courtroom wall, in full view of the Jury Box. Scarborough used this fabrication long after David Barton, its most vehement proponent in modern times, had declared the alleged quotation "false" (see Rob Boston's 1996 article "Mything in Action: David Barton's 'Questionable Quotes'").

The fabrication appears on page 120 of David Barton's stunningly popular book The Myth of Separation. In the footnote, Barton cites:

"Harold K. Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! (Boston: Lamb and Lamb Tractarian Society, 1939) pp. 32-33. See also Fedrick Nyneyer, First Principles in Morality and Economics: Neighborly Love and Ricardo's Law of Association (South Holland Libertarian Press, 1958), pp. 31."

Unfortunately for Barton's cause (and for his credibility as a man of truthfulness), John Stagg and David Mattern, editors of The Papers of James Madison issued the following statement concerning this misquotation:

"We did not find anything in our files remotely like the sentiment expressed in the extract you sent us. In addition, the idea is inconsistent with everything we know about Madison's views on religion and government, views which he expressed time and time again in public and in private." (Letter dated November 23, 1993, to which the editors refer all inquirers.)

This fabrication appears in Lane's book, say Stagg and Mattern, but only in an article by Nyneyer titled "Neighborly Love and Ricardo's Law of Association" (in Progressive Calvinism vol. 31, 1959), not a book; the article gives as its source the 1958 calendar of Spiritual Mobilization. So this appears to be a fabrication for a motivational calendar, but the trail seems to end here.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/madphony.htm

[E Rocc]

TBerry and Susan, please read the links about David Barton. Most of the quotes you just used even Barton (who brought them to prominence) has admitted he can't verify. The Madison quote he admits is false.

Indeed the Madison quote is what got him busted for using inaccurate quotations. Leading Madison scholars saw it and didn't think there was any way at all he could ever have said such a thing. They did the research and they were right.

If I weren't so thick-skinned about people disagreeing with me (I'm used to it by now...LOL) I'd get annoyed at people who say the First Amendment is no impediment to Christianizing America. It's like liberals who say the Second Amendment is no impediment to taking our guns away.

So I say what I say to them: Go ahead, go for it. It will take 2/3 of each house of Congress, and 38 state legislatures. >:)

-Eric

[E Rocc]

Unfortunately for Barton's cause (and for his credibility as a man of truthfulness)

Actually, I have to give Barton some honesty-credit for admitting the quotation was false and the others were questionable. He may merely be a sloppy researcher.

Indeed, Barton said he was called upon by God to prove the supposition. In the hard sciences, that's called "cooking the books". The social sciences and humanities are more forgiving.

-Eric

[E Rocc]

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." John Jay, first Supreme Court Justice

I do believe that Jay said such a thing. As Governor of New York, he supported an effort to expel all Roman Catholics from the state.

Were I on the other side of this debate, I wouldn't quote Jay. It's like quoting Louis Farrakhan or David Duke when debating racial preferences.

-Eric

[abandon]

Roger Sherman, the only founding father to sign all four of America's major documents, totally agreed with Jay when he wrote, "The right to hold office was to be extended to persons of any Christian denomination."

Is this one element of reform that will lead us back in the right direction?

[SusanUSA]

Interesting. Thanks for the heads up.

[E Rocc]

Roger Sherman, the only founding father to sign all four of America's major documents, totally agreed with Jay when he wrote, "The right to hold office was to be extended to persons of any Christian denomination."

Is this one element of reform that will lead us back in the right direction?

On this issue the Framers were quite specific:

The senators and representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

-Article VI, Section 3, The Constitution of the United States.

Again, you're going to need 2/3 of each house of Congress, and 38 state legislatures.

-Eric

[rwfromkansas]

I agree. The simple fact that views change is true. I just took his post to mean more ultimately than just that though.

[rwfromkansas]

I certainly agree about the quotations part. That is why when I argue on this, I get just as frustrated with the false quotes myself. So, I try to stick with things that were events or in official writings. I have found some very interesting quotes that support my position in the writings of Jefferson at the Library of Congress online and have rarely seen them quoted. I certainly agree we were not intended to be a Christian nation govt.-wise. I also think the way we are now is too secularized from the way the founding fathers intended.

[E Rocc]

I certainly agree about the quotations part. That is why when I argue on this, I get just as frustrated with the false quotes myself. So, I try to stick with things that were events or in official writings. I have found some very interesting quotes that support my position in the writings of Jefferson at the Library of Congress online and have rarely seen them quoted. I certainly agree we were not intended to be a Christian nation govt.-wise. I also think the way we are now is too secularized from the way the founding fathers intended.

I do agree that the liberals have gone way too far. The Establishment clause merely requires that governmental bodies not show preference between faiths, not that they shun all contact with all faiths. It certainly does not mandate the anti-religious attitudes shown by some government agencies, indeed I believe those often violate the Free Exercise clause.

-Eric

[abandon]

I agree. Then what was Roger Sherman, the only founding father to sign all four of America's major documents, talking about when he agreed with the statement, "The right to hold office was to be extended to persons of any Christian denomination?" (And what was John Jay thinking when he made the statement in the first place?)

[FormerLurker]

Whatever happened to your sentiments where now you are saying that Jefferson and Madison forged the "Establishment" clause of the 1st Amendment in an effort to "separate church and state"?

[FormerLurker]

BTTT

[billbears]

bump