Myth: The Founders Established A Wall of Separation Between Church and State

excerpt from the book Five Lies of the Century pp. 15-30 | 1995 | David T. Moore

[rwfromkansas]

hogwaller, I trust you also see some more interesting laws that Jefferson supported listed in post 120. Not just sabbath breaking, but prohibiting marriages because they were outside Levitical law!!!!!!!

[Jeff Gordon]

Jeff and a great way to avoid the issue by putting in separate issues that do not show any logic.

Oh my. You sound angry. I can understand why. It is never fun to lose a debate to someone who offers a clear coup de grace argument.

I apologize for defeating you so easily.

[careyb]

Good post.

See here.

[Bump in the night]

Here's a thread on the same subject. Hope it helps ya!

The Secret to America's Strength. (Role of Religion in the Founding Fathers' Constitutional Formula)

[rwfromkansas]

your initial arguement was that, without even researching, that there was no such bill ever passed in Virginia to punish sabbath breakers. Now, you attack my citing different pages that mention this because they don't meet your standards? How hypocritical. The fact of the matter is, Jefferson supported a bill to punish sabbath breakers. The fact of the matter is, he supported annulling marriages because they were not in accordance with Levitical law. This is hardly separation of church and state. Of course, you are so stupid you will find some way to call it that anyway.

[rwfromkansas]

Defeat? lol!!!!! How can you call not addressing the issue (separation of church and state) defeating me? Give me a break. You only exposed your ignorance and stupidity by using the same tired old slavery line that leftists (and now Libertarians) use to avoid actually bothering to discuss serious issues of Constitutional intent.

[rwfromkansas]

"Mentioning Madison's successful Virginia battle against the "Bill Establishing a Provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion" and "Jefferson's historic statute for religious freedom in 1786,"11 Professor Butts does not explain away Jefferson's Virginia "Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship and Sabbath Breakers," which was introduced by Madison in the Virginia Assembly in 1785 and became law in 1786.12 Further, while he emphasizes Madison's role in introducing and guiding the Bill of Rights through the First Congress,13 Professor Butts does not explain why the "absolutist" Madison served as one of six members of a Congressional Committee which, without recorded dissent, recommended the establishment of a Congressional Chaplain System. Adopting the Committee's recommendation, the First Congress voted a $500 annual salary from public funds for a Senate chaplain and a like amount for a House chaplain, both of whom were to offer public prayers in Congress.14"

This is written by a professor, I wonder if that suits your commands for a citation to be accurate. No, it won't because something could only have occurred historically if it agrees with you. But, just in case, I will give you the link to this quote: http://www.dushkin.com/seyler/se04/ed.mhtml

The quote comes from the no view.

[.30Carbine]

You are a gallant knight, Sirgawain, and I offer thanks to God in Jesus Christ for you and for your service here.

[Demidog]

There's only one person on the face of the earth who I have ever read who can arguably show that there is any religious dogma in the constitution and Declaration of Independence and that is the other person I flagged here.

The fact is, that the only religious dogma in the Constitution is implied. And that which is implied and explicitly stated asserts a case against a religious theocratic state that the reconstructionists would like to assert and enact.

[Jeff Gordon]

Your personal attacks and name-calling show that you have been defeated on this topic. If you had a logical rebuttal you would have used it.

[rwfromkansas]

I recall reading the University of Virginia saying this also. Now let's see, professors are saying this is true as well. Yet, you still say it is a lie. Well, I guess the Earth if flat also.

[rwfromkansas]

I don't need a logical rebuttal to such a stupid and LIBERAL argument.

[Jeff Gordon]

I don't need a logical rebuttal to such a stupid and LIBERAL argument.

No. Of course you don't. My point of view is not Politically Correct thus you dismiss it.

[epow]

I recall a nation in Africa that recently as acknowledged itself as the one Christian nation in the world...I forgot which country it was though.

It was Uganda. The president declared it to be a Christian nation in an address to the nation on TV and the national radio system. It appears the people agree with him. There has been a virtual explosion of evangelical Christianity occurring in Uganda for the last few years, and it's now spreading into surrounding countries.

Idi Amin tried to stamp out Christianity in his country 3 decades ago by imprisoning, torturing, and killing thousands of Christians. As usual, persecution had exactly the opposite effect the persecutors wanted.

[rwfromkansas]

Your point of view IS politically correct, don't you see. Yours is the view that every liberal in teh world is saying. That means it is politically correct....it is the popular view. That does not mean it is the RIGHT view.

[WyldKard]

Here we we go folks! Jeff wins the prize as the first liberal disrupter to try the slavery line on us. Nice going, Jeff and a great way to avoid the issue by putting in separate issues that do not show any logic.

Well, why don't you humor me, and explain exactly why this is an example of seperate issues that "do not show any logic." Not that I'm saying I implicitly agreeing with what Jeff has to say, just that I think you could have come up with a better rebuttal than that. He does make a point, to a certain extent...

FWIW, I used to be of a more "liberal" mindset on the issue, but have recently come around to a far more balanced view on the subject. Just curious as to exactly why Jeff's argument doesn't hold any water, is all...