Posted on 01/20/2002 8:45:33 AM PST by Demidog
I thought that the sole purpose of the Messiah's arrival was to establish a new Israel. On the other hand, I believe that the messiah already came. And furthermore I conceded the point already as you should know if you actually read the exchange. This is what I was talking about when I asked you to be intellectually honest.
It's one thing to disagree on the theological niceties it's another thing to continue arguing along a line you can't even prove yourself. It was his assertion based on his blanket statements concerning the Torah. You couldn't back him up. Alouette posted a detailed rebuttal to his blanket assertion and yet there you were still parroting his view several posts down.
I ask you again though. Given his historical view. Do you consider his position in that respect dishonest or is he just a stupid man?
Right, just like what we are doing to poor Usama.
Tell me demi. DO you think its fair for us to fight those who want to destroy us and then tell Israel that it must learn to get along with those who want to destroy it???
No, not the sole purpose at all. You may be suprised to find that there are some devout Jews (very few) who don't believe that a Messiah will come at all!
There are many diverse opinions about the coming of the Messiah, his purpose, the events that will bring him here, and the things he will do once he arrives. There is some thought that there will be two messiahs, the "Moshiach ben Yosef" who will come first to make the arrangements for the coming of the Moshiach ben David, the Redeemer of the Jews. Some ascribe what are traditionally thought of to be the works of Moshiach ben David to Moshiach ben Yosef. I find it all fascinating.
The ingathering of the exiles is often considered a precurser event to the coming of Messiah. This is the predominant thought, although there is some thought that this will be the role of the Messiah (and could be the role of Moshiach ben Yosef). That is why I am extremely curious to know this rabbi's Halachic sources for beleiving that Zionism stands in the way of Messiah.
He may in fact be one of those Jews who does not believe in Messiah at all. I don't remember seeing any reference to Messiah in his speech.
Who the h*ll is "preventing" you? Some big bad hook-nosed boogyman with a stick? If you want to read it, you can buy the whole thing in English (expensive, to be sure) or selections on Amazon.com. Or go to a university or Christian seminary library. Most of them have it. It's basic research material.
Where did I indicate that it bothers me? I charge that he is a fraud. Notice he did not cite a tractate from the Talmud, no page number, no verse. He expected you to accept his opinion on FAITH knowing that you are ignorant of Torah and Talmud. Just saying so does not make it so. Since he did not give a reference I see nothing to refute. The faith that you refuse to give to me, you adequately give to him. WHY? Could it be that his hatred of Israel (MLK winks here) rises to an acceptable level?
But I did give reasons why not to accept his opinion and that of Neurei Karta in general. If more than 90% of TORAH faithful Jews reject them, I would think that that in itself speaks volumes.
As I mentioned, they would be comparable (G-d forgive me for the comparison) to our Taleban and AL-Qeda. They believe that Jews who do not agree with them are similar to what the radical Muslims call Kafirs. In other words, if the Arabs eradicated Jews who do not agree with them they would not shed tears, but would use those deaths as proof that their opinion is sacred! Perverse.
You accept him because you espoused his opinion before you ever heard of him. You believe that the Jewish presence is an abomination. I think that opinion is abominable.
Those who bless us will be blessed and the rest get Arafat, Assad, Osama, etc.
MR. FLEISCHER: The President strongly condemns the attack that took place in Israel yesterday which took innocent lives. The President condemns, once again, another terrorist attack on our friend Israel. The President believes that Chairman Arafat needs to continue and must demonstrate that he has the desire and the willingness and the ability to dismantle terrorist organizations, and that is a vital precursor in order for peace to be achieved in the Middle East in the President's opinion.
Q Is there any point in continuing peace process talks at this point, at this juncture?
MR. FLEISCHER: Again, the President is committed to achieving peace in the Middle East through whatever means are the most likely to achieve peace in the Middle East. So the President will continue the involvement, but it is a very difficult situation.
From yesterdays White House press conference.
I may not be able to translate the Torah, but the meaning of this position statement by the Bush Administration needs little translation. The enemy of our friend will remain our enemy whether you like it or not. The Islamics are fools to escalate their terrorist activities against Israel during the same time frame that their brothers in Islam destroyed our WTC and killed thousands of our people. Israel will do what it must to insure its security from suicidal Islamic terrorists...the U.S. will do likewise. It is unfortunate that such facts upset you, but the ball is in the Palies court.
Here are some of the things he believes (much of it based on his interpretation of Islamic thought): Israel not only has a right to exist as a nation in the region, but such a right is even described in the Koran; a Jewish homeland is even described in the Koran; "And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd,'" the Koran says in 17:104; there is no such thing as a 'Palestinian';
He has said that what the Palestinians are doing is an Islamic sin, that they are not justified in Islamic law for uprising because the only justification for it such an uprising against the government is when the government does not allow a Muslim to practice his faith.
Of course he speaks truth because he hates Israel; we speak propoganda because we don't. This is drivel not even an argument.
Do you agree with the Rabbi and the NKI that the holocaust was God's punishment on the Jews "for trying to establish the State of Israel"?
Joining Farrakhan at his annual Saviours’ Day convention, Neturei Karta Rabbi David Weiss repeatedly attacked Zionism and Israel, telling the crowd that the Holocaust was punishment on the Jewish people for trying to establish the State of Israel. He also asserted that "All those who say they are Jews who speak ill of Mr. Farrakhan are not Jews."
Also, there is a new version that is only partially translation that is supposed to be even better and truer to the word (if you ever read any translated books, you know that some translations are just better than others).
The only thing preventing someone from reading it is 1) they can't read Aramaic, or 2) they don't want to buy one of the translated versions or find it in a large library. But it's out there and freely available (in translation).
Yes. I know.
The issue about Palestine is about 4,000 years old.
There is no palestine. There was no connection whatever between the name Philistia/Philistines which some people are trying to equate with those who call THEMSELVES palestinians today. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
Now help me so I can learn. What is in your Kool Aid that prevents you from achieving enlightenment?
Neturei Karta International
Do you agree with the Rabbi and the NKI that the holocaust was God's punishment on the Jews "for trying to establish the State of Israel"?
Joining Farrakhan at his annual Saviours? Day convention, Neturei Karta Rabbi David Weiss repeatedly attacked Zionism and Israel, telling the crowd that the Holocaust was punishment on the Jewish people for trying to establish the State of Israel. He also asserted that "All those who say they are Jews who speak ill of Mr. Farrakhan are not Jews."See NKI's common cause with Farrakhan
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