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Towards a Lasting Middle East Peace
12/11/2001 | By: Rabbi Yisroel D. Weiss of Neturei Karta International

Posted on 01/20/2002 8:45:33 AM PST by Demidog

At the National Press Club, Washington DC , 11 December 2001

With G-D’s help May the Creator grant that my words find favor in His eyes.

Each day’s news brings with it horrible tales of suffering from the Holy Land . The death toll on both sides mounts steadily. Indeed, so overwhelming is the seemingly never-ending stream of death and mayhem that it requires an exceptionally bloody day to merit significant media consideration. We have all grown accustomed to the fact that the Israeli state and its Palestinian opponents are locked in mortal combat. So it has been, so it is and so, it seems, it always will be.

Indeed, this pessimistic prognosis seems rooted in a century of precedent. The first Jewish settlers who came to Palestine with the intention of establishing a sovereign Jewish state there arrived towards the end of the nineteenth century. Palestinian nationalism – then generally subsumed under the title Arab nationalism but soon to assume its more particularistic title – began to flourish at about the same time.

The clash of these movements was played out through various wars, atrocities, revolutions and dispossessions throughout the twentieth century. Various strains of ideology in these rival nationalisms have attempted to bring the matter to closure, either by force of arms or, at times, by recourse to the negotiating table.

All these efforts, be they military or compromise oriented, have one fact in common. Their result is always the same. They have failed – failed utterly and totally. We may delude ourselves by yet dreaming, as many do, that there is one final war or one last peace plan which can calm all those concerned. Unfortunately there is no indication that such is the case.

We of Neturei Karta International find the toll of dead and wounded on both sides to be intolerable. We feel that it is high time for a radical departure from the assumptions that have governed and, effectively stifled free debate on the subject.

Our perspective is far from new. It is the centuries old view of the Torah. It was once universally shared by all Jews and it is only our people’s recent flirtation with assorted secularist dogmas that have caused it to be forgotten of late in some quarters.

Simply stated – The essence of Judaism is our faith -- our belief that G-d spoke to Moses and the assembled multitudes at Sinai and there gave His Revelation to the world. This was, is and always will be, Judaism.

The Jewish exile from the Holy Land , which followed the Roman destruction of the Second Temple close to two thousand years ago, was always viewed by our people as a Divine punishment. The state of exile in which we found ourselves was not seen as the result of military or political weakness. Rather, the Creator had decreed that until such time as He would chose to redeem the world, world Jewry was to remain in exile. The only possible means to alter what was and is a metaphysical state are spiritual. Repentance, prayer, Torah study, deeds of kindness and the like could hasten redemption. Nothing else would be effective. Any other means of ending exile is metaphysically doomed to failure.

Zionism was a movement dedicated to altering this traditional view of redemption. It posited that political maneuvering; revolutionary terror, war and dispossession would yield Jewish salvation.

Nothing could be further from the truths of Judaism.

However, Zionism not only broke with the teachings of our faith, it also entered upon a campaign, now over one hundred years old, to persuade and, eventually, force, when possible, Jews to abandon their allegiance to G-d and the Torah and recreate themselves as secular nationalists.

The Zionist movement was not only a heretical departure from Judaism and a practical attempt to lure Jews from their Torah. It was also monstrously blind to the indigenous inhabitants of the Holy Land . In the 1890s, less than 5% of the Holy Land ’s population was Jewish, yet, Theodore Herzl had the nerve to describe his movement as that of “a people without a land for a land without a people.”

Time and again both Revisionist and Labor Zionists, the former overtly and the latter under the clouds of deceptive rhetoric, have sought the elimination of the Palestinian people from their state. They have dispossessed thousands and refused them the right of return or minimum compensation. They have kept the people of Gaza and the West Bank stripped of basic political and human rights and denied them the dignity of self-determination.

This aggression has plunged the region into its never-ending spiral of bloodshed.

Sad to say, the bloody results of Zionism were not unexpected. They were foretold in the Talmud. There we read that a human based attempt to return en masse to the Holy Land would result in terrifying loss of life. This is an unpleasant truth but its seems quite validated by the past century’s events.

People of the Press, I have come before you today to offer a new perspective on the Middle East, a new explanation as to why all previous attempts at peace making have failed. It is our belief that they are inherently doomed to fail. All of them share one fatal assumption. They find it axiomatic that the state of Israel should exist. And, in contrast to the plain evidence of the past half-century of Jewish history they see its existence as a positive development for the Jewish people.

Only blind dogma could at this date see Israel as something good for the Jewish people. Established as a so-called safe haven it has consistently over the past five decades been the most dangerous place on the face of the earth for a Jew to live. It has been the source of tens of thousands of Jewish deaths, of families torn apart and has left a trail of grieving widows, orphans and friends in its wake.

Not to mention the countless thousands of Jewish souls diverted from religion. And our Rabbis state “If you cause one to sin, it is worse than killing him”.

And, let us not forget that this tale of physical Jewish suffering is far magnified among the Palestinian people, a nation condemned to poverty, persecution, homelessness, all pervasive hopelessness and all too often, a far too premature, death.

This web of pain, the cries and tears of the grieving, demand of us as Jews that we return to the wellsprings of our faith. We must accept our task to serve G-d in humility and peace. This is the essence of a Jew.

And, when so doing we will inevitably reject the bizarre and malicious doctrines of Zionism, the falsification of Judaism.

We will realize that defying the Divine decree of exile is doomed to bloody failure.

We will realize that our people’s hopes cannot be built by shattering those of another people.

We will demand and with G-d’s, help live to see the peaceful dismantling of the state. We will return the land to those who dwelt upon it for centuries, the Palestinian people. Under their sovereignty, we will work towards a just solution to any Jewish – Palestinian problems created by the brief period of Zionist ascendancy.

There are I’m sure some skeptics here in the audience who feel that a Palestinian state would represent a threat to the Jewish people. My friends, I have been there time and time again as Neturei Karta International has visited Palestinian and Islamic organizations and I have been greeted with extraordinary warmth and brotherly concern. We have visited Iran , been hosts of the government. We were allowed to speak in Iran to both Jewish and non-Jewish audiences, without any prior censorship. We have discovered time after time, that Muslims in general actually yearn for good relations with Jews and, that when the evil face of Zionism is stripped away, the naturally good relations between our peoples bubbles to the surface.

Actully history bears witness that through out the centuries Muslim countries were extremely hospitable to the Jews. In fact as a general rule the Jews faired far better in those countries than in other host lands.

And in Palestine alone our grandparent have testified to the fact that the Muslims and Jews lived in peace and harmony up until the advent of Zionism.

Many stories of the close friendship that existed at that time circulate in the Jewish communities, for instance, baby sitting each others children was a daily occurrence

We also operate a web site. There isn’t a day goes by when we don’t receive e- mails from around the Islamic world. They are all positive. They bless, express love and brotherhood. Often they credit us with having cured them of anti Jewish sentiments. From Yemen to Great Britain the delight these people experience in finding anti Zionist Jews is palpable.

This then is the image we offer as an alternative to the current horror – of a Jewish people free of the need to kill and be killed, free to pursue their Divine task of Torah practice and free to live in peace and respect with all men. May the Creator grant that we all be worthy of seeing that day. And ultimately the day when all will recognize the one G-D and serve Him in harmony. AMEN


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
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To: Demidog
at what point did Islam and Jews become out of harmony in the region?

Just a guess, but it may have been on the day that Mohammed reneged on his 30 day old peace deal with the rulers of Mecca and sacked the city, killing and dispersing the Jews who lived there and the rulers alike? I believe this is all detailed in the Koran.

151 posted on 01/20/2002 12:58:29 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Demidog
I have disagreed with one person regarding Judaic law who claimed that Jews are forbidden from prosyletization.

I didn't *claim* it. I stated it. It is a fact. Anyone who willingly converts to Judaism usually decides by LEARNING the religion first. In such a case, questions are permitted to be answered. But we do not preach to gentiles, nor do we try and convert them. IT IS FORBIDDEN!

152 posted on 01/20/2002 1:04:29 PM PST by Nix 2
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To: Lent
"Didn't you read the lengthy post I made giving an overview of that "relationship" over 12 centuries or so?" -- Lent, asking Demidog to come clean

All I see you post is that your love for the 50 year old Jewish state of Israel blinds you to the central issue of Palestine.

153 posted on 01/20/2002 1:06:54 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: Buckeroo
All I see you post is that your love for the 50 year old Jewish state of Israel blinds you to the central issue of Palestine

Taken that cold shower and aspirin yet?

154 posted on 01/20/2002 1:07:57 PM PST by Lent
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To: Buckeroo
There is no fifty year old issue of *Palestine*.
155 posted on 01/20/2002 1:08:14 PM PST by Nix 2
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To: Demidog
Understand one thing. Virtually all religious Jews, Zionist or not, accept the principle that "there are 70 faces to the Torah". This means that there are 70 ways to read (interpret, see, evaluate) everything contained therein - from the literal to the metaphorical to the metaphysical to the bible codes and on and on. Moreover, each one of these 70 faces are all considered valid and intentional. Jewish scholarly research is based on this principle, and Jewish scholarship is all in all the effort to discover these 70 faces.

This is more or less how the joke about 2 Jews having 5 opinions comes about.

So when I say this rabbi stands on his ground, I am acknowleging that he may indeed have valid points. It's subject to interpretation and opinion. Jewish scholarship is extremely difficult -- sometimes two very valid points are in seeming contradiction with each other. But we're talking about people's hard core beliefs and the redemption of the world, so devout people are going to argue these beliefs vociferously and to their last breath. I don't have words of ill will for this rabbi or his opinion. I just think he is wrong. I am no Torah scholar either, just a layman who derives immense pleasure grappling in depths of understanding found in Jewish thought.

156 posted on 01/20/2002 1:08:53 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: monkeyshine
. I don't have words of ill will for this rabbi or his opinion

I do. He is either dishonest, or he is a very ignorant man. If you are going to advocate for the dismantling of a nation-state you better get you historical p's and q's together - or stick to flipping burgers.

157 posted on 01/20/2002 1:12:25 PM PST by Lent
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To: Nix 2
You are correct. The issue about Palestine is about 4,000 years old.
158 posted on 01/20/2002 1:15:10 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: monkeyshine
To clarify what I think are his valid points is that the Jews need to return to God and Torah to hasten the arrival of Messiah. Where I think is wrong, and wrongheaded, is in believing that Zionism stands in the way of that.. and it is reasonably believeable that his efforts to dismantle Zionism will not advance the religiously necessary endeavor of returning Jews to God. Only his work towards returning Jews can accomplish that. In other words, I believe his efforts are being wasted at best, and at worst he is encouraging animosity towards Jews in so far as non-Jews perceive Israel and Zionism as representative of Jewish interests.
159 posted on 01/20/2002 1:15:45 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Lent
I understand. See my reply to myself.
160 posted on 01/20/2002 1:16:24 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Lent
BTW, I agree that he does have some of his facts wrong. I find especially distasteful his attempts to sugarcoat the relationship of Muslims towards Jews in the pre-Zionist era.
161 posted on 01/20/2002 1:19:13 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Buckeroo
Your 'teach me act' is so tired. I have seen enough of your posts to understand your agenda, you and demidog both. Neither really worth spending much time on. You are not interested in 'learning', just wasting time filling the hours.
162 posted on 01/20/2002 1:19:53 PM PST by veronica
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To: monkeyshine
I find especially distasteful his attempts to sugarcoat the relationship of Muslims towards Jews in the pre-Zionist era.

Jews and Muslims in Palestine (circa 1850)

163 posted on 01/20/2002 1:21:42 PM PST by Alouette
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To: Lent
Do you agree that the Torah does not exclude Israel being constituted as a precursor to the Messiah coming?

I thought that the sole purpose of the Messiah's arrival was to establish a new Israel. On the other hand, I believe that the messiah already came. And furthermore I conceded the point already as you should know if you actually read the exchange. This is what I was talking about when I asked you to be intellectually honest.

164 posted on 01/20/2002 1:22:12 PM PST by Demidog
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To: monkeyshine
I understand your position and as I stated before I really appreciate your intellectual honesty and politeness in expressing it.
165 posted on 01/20/2002 1:25:40 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Demidog
I thought that the sole purpose of the Messiah's arrival was to establish a new Israel. On the other hand, I believe that the messiah already came. And furthermore I conceded the point already as you should know if you actually read the exchange. This is what I was talking about when I asked you to be intellectually honest.

It's one thing to disagree on the theological niceties it's another thing to continue arguing along a line you can't even prove yourself. It was his assertion based on his blanket statements concerning the Torah. You couldn't back him up. Alouette posted a detailed rebuttal to his blanket assertion and yet there you were still parroting his view several posts down.

I ask you again though. Given his historical view. Do you consider his position in that respect dishonest or is he just a stupid man?

166 posted on 01/20/2002 1:29:48 PM PST by Lent
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To: veronica
I love you, too, veronica. But if you have time, please educate me about this volatile situation without condenscending overtones.
167 posted on 01/20/2002 1:31:15 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: Demidog
He in fact is provoking war. He is escalating and holding Arafa as a virtual hostage.

Right, just like what we are doing to poor Usama.

Tell me demi. DO you think its fair for us to fight those who want to destroy us and then tell Israel that it must learn to get along with those who want to destroy it???

168 posted on 01/20/2002 1:36:17 PM PST by liberalism=failure
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To: Demidog
I thought that the sole purpose of the Messiah's arrival was to establish a new Israel.

No, not the sole purpose at all. You may be suprised to find that there are some devout Jews (very few) who don't believe that a Messiah will come at all!

There are many diverse opinions about the coming of the Messiah, his purpose, the events that will bring him here, and the things he will do once he arrives. There is some thought that there will be two messiahs, the "Moshiach ben Yosef" who will come first to make the arrangements for the coming of the Moshiach ben David, the Redeemer of the Jews. Some ascribe what are traditionally thought of to be the works of Moshiach ben David to Moshiach ben Yosef. I find it all fascinating.

The ingathering of the exiles is often considered a precurser event to the coming of Messiah. This is the predominant thought, although there is some thought that this will be the role of the Messiah (and could be the role of Moshiach ben Yosef). That is why I am extremely curious to know this rabbi's Halachic sources for beleiving that Zionism stands in the way of Messiah.

He may in fact be one of those Jews who does not believe in Messiah at all. I don't remember seeing any reference to Messiah in his speech.

169 posted on 01/20/2002 1:37:56 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Ridin' Shotgun
While I can't claim to have read the Talmud (due to the fact that I am prevented from so doing)...

Who the h*ll is "preventing" you? Some big bad hook-nosed boogyman with a stick? If you want to read it, you can buy the whole thing in English (expensive, to be sure) or selections on Amazon.com. Or go to a university or Christian seminary library. Most of them have it. It's basic research material.

170 posted on 01/20/2002 1:58:50 PM PST by Southern Federalist
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To: Ridin' Shotgun;demidog
"The fact that this man (as well as many others) is calling for justice for all of mankind seems to bother you."

Where did I indicate that it bothers me? I charge that he is a fraud. Notice he did not cite a tractate from the Talmud, no page number, no verse. He expected you to accept his opinion on FAITH knowing that you are ignorant of Torah and Talmud. Just saying so does not make it so. Since he did not give a reference I see nothing to refute. The faith that you refuse to give to me, you adequately give to him. WHY? Could it be that his hatred of Israel (MLK winks here) rises to an acceptable level?

But I did give reasons why not to accept his opinion and that of Neurei Karta in general. If more than 90% of TORAH faithful Jews reject them, I would think that that in itself speaks volumes.

As I mentioned, they would be comparable (G-d forgive me for the comparison) to our Taleban and AL-Qeda. They believe that Jews who do not agree with them are similar to what the radical Muslims call Kafirs. In other words, if the Arabs eradicated Jews who do not agree with them they would not shed tears, but would use those deaths as proof that their opinion is sacred! Perverse.

You accept him because you espoused his opinion before you ever heard of him. You believe that the Jewish presence is an abomination. I think that opinion is abominable.

Those who bless us will be blessed and the rest get Arafat, Assad, Osama, etc.

171 posted on 01/20/2002 2:00:54 PM PST by rebdov
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To: Demidog
Q On Israel, is the peace process dead now? And what comments do you have to make in the wake of yesterday's attacks --

MR. FLEISCHER: The President strongly condemns the attack that took place in Israel yesterday which took innocent lives. The President condemns, once again, another terrorist attack on our friend Israel. The President believes that Chairman Arafat needs to continue and must demonstrate that he has the desire and the willingness and the ability to dismantle terrorist organizations, and that is a vital precursor in order for peace to be achieved in the Middle East in the President's opinion.

Q Is there any point in continuing peace process talks at this point, at this juncture?

MR. FLEISCHER: Again, the President is committed to achieving peace in the Middle East through whatever means are the most likely to achieve peace in the Middle East. So the President will continue the involvement, but it is a very difficult situation.

From yesterdays White House press conference.
I may not be able to translate the Torah, but the meaning of this position statement by the Bush Administration needs little translation. The enemy of our friend will remain our enemy whether you like it or not. The Islamics are fools to escalate their terrorist activities against Israel during the same time frame that their brothers in Islam destroyed our WTC and killed thousands of our people. Israel will do what it must to insure its security from suicidal Islamic terrorists...the U.S. will do likewise. It is unfortunate that such facts upset you, but the ball is in the Palies court.

172 posted on 01/20/2002 2:02:32 PM PST by KDD
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To: Demidog
Now, for the exact opposite viewpoint of that expressed by this group, you might also be interested in reading up on Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi. This is a Muslim Cleric who believes and speaks candidly about the issues in Israel.

Here are some of the things he believes (much of it based on his interpretation of Islamic thought): Israel not only has a right to exist as a nation in the region, but such a right is even described in the Koran; a Jewish homeland is even described in the Koran; "And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd,'" the Koran says in 17:104; there is no such thing as a 'Palestinian';

He has said that what the Palestinians are doing is an Islamic sin, that they are not justified in Islamic law for uprising because the only justification for it such an uprising against the government is when the government does not allow a Muslim to practice his faith.

173 posted on 01/20/2002 2:02:36 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Buckeroo
"I suppose, you are saying that the truth is nothing more than obscure and efficient use of propaganda by the majority holders."

Of course he speaks truth because he hates Israel; we speak propoganda because we don't. This is drivel not even an argument.

174 posted on 01/20/2002 2:05:02 PM PST by rebdov
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To: Lent
Neturei Karta International

Do you agree with the Rabbi and the NKI that the holocaust was God's punishment on the Jews "for trying to establish the State of Israel"?

Joining Farrakhan at his annual Saviours’ Day convention, Neturei Karta Rabbi David Weiss repeatedly attacked Zionism and Israel, telling the crowd that the Holocaust was punishment on the Jewish people for trying to establish the State of Israel. He also asserted that "All those who say they are Jews who speak ill of Mr. Farrakhan are not Jews."

See NKI's common cause with Farrakhan

175 posted on 01/20/2002 2:05:29 PM PST by Lent
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To: Southern Federalist; Ridin' Shotgun
You can order the entire Talmud translated into English on CD Rom on many websites. Just do a search for it.

Also, there is a new version that is only partially translation that is supposed to be even better and truer to the word (if you ever read any translated books, you know that some translations are just better than others).

The only thing preventing someone from reading it is 1) they can't read Aramaic, or 2) they don't want to buy one of the translated versions or find it in a large library. But it's out there and freely available (in translation).

176 posted on 01/20/2002 2:06:08 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Buckeroo
You are correct.

Yes. I know.

The issue about Palestine is about 4,000 years old.

There is no palestine. There was no connection whatever between the name Philistia/Philistines which some people are trying to equate with those who call THEMSELVES palestinians today. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Now help me so I can learn. What is in your Kool Aid that prevents you from achieving enlightenment?

177 posted on 01/20/2002 2:09:09 PM PST by Nix 2
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To: Demidog
My mistake. This was mean't for you.

Neturei Karta International

Do you agree with the Rabbi and the NKI that the holocaust was God's punishment on the Jews "for trying to establish the State of Israel"?

Joining Farrakhan at his annual Saviours? Day convention, Neturei Karta Rabbi David Weiss repeatedly attacked Zionism and Israel, telling the crowd that the Holocaust was punishment on the Jewish people for trying to establish the State of Israel. He also asserted that "All those who say they are Jews who speak ill of Mr. Farrakhan are not Jews."
See NKI's common cause with Farrakhan
178 posted on 01/20/2002 2:13:48 PM PST by Lent
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To: monkeyshine
I quoted the entire article by Palazzi a few days ago and what did Demi have the temerity to do? Insult me. Another lost cause.
179 posted on 01/20/2002 2:17:01 PM PST by Lent
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To: Lent
Ok... maybe now I have some ill will for the rabbi.
180 posted on 01/20/2002 2:18:18 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Lent
Really? Why? It's only fair and reasonable. In fact Palazzi's thoughts are nearly the exact same thing in principle (if not in historical truth) as this group, except only to a opposite end goal.
181 posted on 01/20/2002 2:20:59 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: monkeyshine;Lent;rebdov
You have been awesome on this thread.

Koach Shur

182 posted on 01/20/2002 2:29:48 PM PST by Nix 2
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To: Demidog
And what about this belief is untrue?

How about his intollerant fundamentalism, claiming that all Jews must conform to his narrow beliefs? Unless they abandon Israel completely and spend the next millenium or three muttering over their Holy Books and waiting for the Deus Ex Machina, they are being untrue to their faith. True that this is much better than the extreme forms of Islamic fundamentalism which employ an equally unworldly fanatacism to justify outright murder, but that doesn't mean it isn't utopian bullpuckey.

Why do you even ask this, Demidog? Do you believe Torah is divinely ispired? Do you believe this Rabbi's particular interpretion is correct? If the answers to either of these questions is "no," perhaps you should explain how you are not a posturing hypocrite?

183 posted on 01/20/2002 2:37:28 PM PST by Stultis
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To: Nix 2
Your mind is made up. There never was a Palestine, was there? It is just a figment of our imaginations. Thank you for erasing a proud people from the chalkboard of history. I have trully learned from you.
184 posted on 01/20/2002 3:24:37 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: Demidog
Yes, it is the premise of the speach by a part of the Jewish people. My point was that this speach was also made at the time of the partition and creation of the state of Israel and Jews argued on both sides. Those who put their faith in the return of the Messiah believed that the Jewish state would be reborn by His efforts. Others believed that the scriptures had ample room for interpretation on this point, and how do we know that this is not the way the Jewish state should be reborn? I subscribe to the belief that enough searching in the Talmud and the Torah and you can defend most points of view. To identify the stronger side requires a clear moral understanding of the issues at the present time as well.

That the state should be reborn at the cost of many deaths ignors that there were many deaths that could have been prevented had their been a Jewish state prior to WW II. At any rate, a topic that purports to point towards a middle east peace seems to be high on blame and low on direction.

185 posted on 01/20/2002 3:26:08 PM PST by KC_for_Freedom
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To: Buckeroo
Thank you for learning, but you are still missing the point. You can't erase from history something that never was. However you CAN add things that never were.
186 posted on 01/20/2002 3:38:30 PM PST by Nix 2
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To: Nix 2
Of course. And your astute lecture clearly indicates that you have little trouble about increasing the tensions within the Middle-East as you ignore the real issues. You have taught me well ...... that you are nothing but a liar.
187 posted on 01/20/2002 3:55:06 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: monkeyshine
I would agree that what many do in the name of Islam is a sin. I would also agree with the sentiment that Islam is supposed to be friendly with Israel according to their own scriptures. After all, Islam is supposed to draw its heritage from the same founding fathers as the Jews.
188 posted on 01/20/2002 4:06:50 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Lent
That's not true. I didn't insult you. I stated that given your other statements about Palestinians, it was odd that you would quote a work that gives credence to the very religion and people that you have denigrated.
189 posted on 01/20/2002 4:08:42 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Lent
I would like to see the text of the speech. The ADL hasn't exactly proven itself a reliable source. But somebody else has also said that the rabbi has said similar statements so perhaps it's true.
190 posted on 01/20/2002 4:11:57 PM PST by Demidog
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To: rebdov
But I did give reasons why not to accept his opinion and that of Neurei Karta in general.

Yes. You specifically uttered the words "trust me."

The 90% number comes from where? I don't know which one of you is "right" if either of you is right. There hasn't been a debate about what is really said in the Talmud for us to know here or elsewhere. I was actually hoping that some of that would occur here.

191 posted on 01/20/2002 4:15:03 PM PST by Demidog
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To: liberalism=failure
Right, just like what we are doing to poor Usama.

Last I checked Usama got away and we really haven't done anything to him at all unless you think that bombing Afghanistan has something significant to do with bin Laden.

Tell me demi. DO you think its fair for us to fight those who want to destroy us and then tell Israel that it must learn to get along with those who want to destroy it???

The Afghan people had nothing to do with 9/11.

192 posted on 01/20/2002 4:17:36 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Lent
You couldn't back him up.

It wasn't my purpose to back him up. Again you are trying to create a conflict where none exists.

193 posted on 01/20/2002 4:18:58 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Demidog
The Afghan people had nothing to do with 9/11.

No, but their leaders did. Just as the Palestinian leadership wants to destroy Israel, indeed their entire population would like to see Israel destroyed.

Lemme ask you demi, when was the last time you felt like getting along with someone whose only desire is to see you dead?

Answer that and then you can tell me why Israelis should make any effort to get along with Palestinians.

194 posted on 01/20/2002 4:25:06 PM PST by liberalism=failure
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To: liberalism=failure
...unless you think that bombing Afghanistan has something significant to do with bin Laden.

Of course it does, they are the country that harbored him.

SO, demi, are you an apologist for murderers all the time, or do you just play one on the web?

195 posted on 01/20/2002 4:28:31 PM PST by liberalism=failure
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To: liberalism=failure
No, but their leaders did.

No. They didn't. Not even our own government is saying this. They're simply saying that because the Afghan leadership didn't cowtow to their demands they are guilty of "harboring terrorists" and must be killed. Notice that "freeeing" the Afghan people from the Taliban wasn't a reason given, it was a by-product. And in fact will probably only be temporary if the Northern Alliance comes to power.

Of course that hasn't stopped us from dropping bombs on villages at the behest of Northern Alliance "intelligence" reports.

when was the last time you felt like getting along with someone whose only desire is to see you dead?

That is a fallacy. I don't know how many people that would cover on the Palestinian side but enough Palestinians sneak across the border to work in Jewish shops that I don't think it would be accurate to even say that it was most Palestinians.

196 posted on 01/20/2002 4:33:51 PM PST by Demidog
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Comment #197 Removed by Moderator

To: liberalism=failure
SO, demi, are you an apologist for murderers all the time

I've never offered any apology for any murderer.

198 posted on 01/20/2002 4:40:25 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Ridin' Shotgun;demidog;college repub;nix 2;alouette
This is Also to whoever else is participating and whose name I forgot to include.

"While I can't claim to have read the Talmud (due to the fact that I am prevented from so doing) "

Someone ranted this inanity. The Talmud is available in 3 English translations. It is available in public libraries and some universities. Is this statement some kind of proclamation from the Spotlight? I have read the same rant dozens of times here on FR and on many other sites over the years. Is there an official talking points page? Usually they make claims from non-existent tractates or from page numbers in a tractate that are beyond the actual number of pages.

What do they think the Talmud is; the secret plans of the Jews to take over the world? The Talmud contains for the most part legal discussions and debates of Jewish law and some explanation of verses in the Bible to instruct proper conduct and the Torah outlook of the world. No secret decoder rings needed; no tin-foil inserts. Nothing hidden; no mysteries.

By the way, for a point of interest. The Introduction to the Medrash on Lamentations says that the Neturei Karta are the elementary and secondary school teachers. The Medrash says that without them being properly supported the city does not deserve to exist. Neturei Karta means Guardians of the City. Those who teach the children are the true guardians; not the police and not the army.

199 posted on 01/20/2002 5:43:05 PM PST by rebdov
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To: Demidog
That's not true. I didn't insult you. I stated that given your other statements about Palestinians, it was odd that you would quote a work that gives credence to the very religion and people that you have denigrated.

You insulted by stating that I advocated slaughtering all Muslims or something to that effect. Why don't you quote what you stated to me? Is it because it would back up that what you did was insult my position? Maybe instead of just posting inanities it's time to back up what you post. My position concerning Islam is that it's chief problem is that when it is joined with the Nazi ideology of Pan Arab nationalism then you have a nazi ideology under the cloak of religion. Obviously, a guy like Palazzi recognizes the insidious nature of Arab nationalism and he states it for what it is. You, you appear unable to make those fine distinctions necessary for intelligent discussion.

200 posted on 01/20/2002 6:11:36 PM PST by Lent
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