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Hydrogen Powered Cars! HA!
1/25/2002 | John Jamieson

Posted on 01/25/2002 12:12:08 PM PST by John Jamieson

Hydrogen Powered Cars! Yes, When the Lasts Drops of Crude Are Gone!

John R Jamieson MIT67, NASA67-94 retired

It seems like a great idea at first glance. Hydrogen is one of the most abundant elements on earth and burns very cleanly. It contains more energy per pound than any other fuel.

At second glance, things are a little less encouraging. Most of the hydrogen on earth is already burned! The oceans are the ashes of billions of years of hydrogen fires. The hydrogen is tightly bound to oxygen atoms and must be separated from those atoms before it can be used again. Using electrolysis, the hydrogen can be separated from the oxygen by putting in exactly the same amount of energy that will later be retrieved when the hydrogen is burned. Hydrogen, made from water, is thus an energy storage media like a battery, not an energy source. Neither the separation nor the recombination of this reversible process can happen at 100% efficiency. Waste heat is generated during each process. Because most of our electricity is generated by hydrocarbons, we would still be using hydrocarbons to run our cars. The inherent efficiency of the electrical energy generation process (about 40%) times the expected efficiency of the electrolysis process (about 50%) would indicate a hydrogen fuel price of about 5 times the price of fossil fuels.

The second major source of hydrogen is directly from hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons contain both hydrogen and carbon; about twice as many hydrogen atoms than carbon atoms, but since a carbon atom weights 14 times more than a hydrogen atom, much more carbon by weight. When we drive our cars today, we burn about 5.3 pounds of carbon and .7 pound of hydrogen per gallon of gasoline. Hydrogen plus oxygen equals water, good; carbon plus oxygen equals carbon dioxide, bad (the same stuff we exhale!). If we could breakdown natural gas, methane, gasoline, or fuel oil to separate the hydrogen from the nasty carbon (on which all life is based) and sell the huge piles of carbon for enough to pay for the separation, about 3 gallons of liquid or an equivalent weight of gas (about 18 pounds) would yield about 2 pounds of hydrogen, which is the energy equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline or 6 pounds of natural gas. Remember that burning the carbon would not be allowed. We could make diamonds with it. The net result is that hydrogen fuel cannot, ever, be made for less than 3 times the price of fossil fuels.

OK, what if we just ignore that fact that we can’t make hydrogen economically. What do we do with it in an automobile? The logical answer is we burn it, in the same cars we’re driving today. Internal combustion engines basically don’t care what provides the heat. There are a few minor problems: How do you seal up the leakiest substance known to man? How do you store enough in the car to go 300 miles? What happens in a freeway crash? Etc. But, these little issues can all be solved. IC engines will need water injection to lower peak cylinder temps so we don’t make nasty NOX, but that technology is pretty well understood. Oh, but wait a minute, IC engines are nasty and unacceptable! Enter the miracle solution: FUEL CELLS!

FUEL CELLS work! There is about a $100,000,000 worth of them on each Space Shuttle generating the equivalent of almost 36 horsepower. Coleman just announced a real commercial home power generator that puts out 1.2 kilowatts for only $7,995 (Plus $100 per hydrogen canister that lasts for a few hours). GM just drove its latest fuel cell vehicle “Hydrogen1” on an “endurance test”, 230 miles from LA to Los Vegas. They only had to stop 7 times for more hydrogen. Many other companies built fuel cell cars and tried to go along, but didn’t make it. Zero to 50 was only 18 seconds.

The US department of energy recently set a goal of only $400 per kilowatt (about a horsepower, figuring electrical controller and motor efficiencies) for STATIONARY APPLICATIONS BY 2015. Won’t they be surprised that Detroit is planning affordable family fuel cell automobiles by 2010! If Detroit gets to magic $400 per horsepower five years early, and makes it small enough and light enough to go in a family car, you too, could be driving a 200 horsepower family car for a little over $100,000 that “burns” hydrogen costing you $5 a “gallon”. What a deal! You’ll drive it with pride knowing that your leaving no bad stuff in the air of your immediate area, while increasing the pollution of the poor people that live next to the power plant outside of town by a factor of 3 and increasing the importation (and probably the price) of Arab oil by a factor of three.

All this negativity aside, there is one and only one way to cheap automotive fuel, clean air and energy independence for this country. The answer is a massive, nuclear energy economy, probably fusion (hydrogen) powered. Hydrogen used for fusion generates power thousands of times more effectively than burning it with oxygen. A national effort equal to the Manhattan project or the Apollo program could develop fusion-powered electricity (and cheap hydrogen for automotive fuel) within 25 years. Then, we can truly say, we’re driving clean, fusion-powered cars. Electricity could be as cheap as 2 cents per kilowatt-hour and hydrogen for our cars, 40 cents per “gallon”. It is the only solution to the problem that has any economic, political, or engineering viability.

In the meantime, burn all the cheap Arab oil you can get and keep supporting the development our own fossil fuel sources for the day when we decide to shut the Arabs off!


TOPICS: Editorial; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: energy
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To: Jersey Kid
Y'know, if you actually knew something about the details of nuclear power, you'd be dangerous. Just about everything you wrote is wrong.
61 posted on 01/25/2002 1:39:09 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: John Jamieson
Horrors! CO2, that evil, nefarious, invisible, suffocating, plant-fertilizing (can't talk about that part), gasssssss!!!

Yes, just not as much. BTW, there is a school of thought that wonders now if elevated CO2 in the atmosphere is a RESULT of global warming, not a cause. More to follow, I'm sure.

62 posted on 01/25/2002 1:41:48 PM PST by stboz
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To: Virginia-American
True! How much? Ever noticed that wind generated electricity costs more than the other kinds? Why is that?
63 posted on 01/25/2002 1:44:10 PM PST by John Jamieson
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To: HEY4QDEMS
Would eating beans makes us self reliant? ;^D

No, it would merely make us self-propelled!

(BTW, is that Boyle's or Charles' Law?)
64 posted on 01/25/2002 1:45:33 PM PST by Bitwhacker
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To: stboz
Why not as much?
65 posted on 01/25/2002 1:45:51 PM PST by John Jamieson
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To: John Jamieson
"Your Comments????"

A shallow article ignoring many important points.

Generating hydrogen from hydrocarbons isn't as difficult as you seem to think. See "coal gasification" as one example.

Your information about fuel cells is YEARS out of date.

And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for development of a successful fusion reactor. They'll develop thin-film multi-junction 40% efficient solar cells long before that ever happens. If you want nuclear, it's going to be fission.

66 posted on 01/25/2002 1:46:26 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: John Jamieson
I hope not! Otherwise you may have given FR a rep. as a bunch of suckers! LOL
Anyway, what was the video like? Did it show a working/operating generator? I did an open search and found only biased reviews. I'd like to know more tho.

EBUCK

67 posted on 01/25/2002 1:53:54 PM PST by EBUCK
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To: Wonder Warthog
I didn't say it was hard, I said it require large quantities of hydrocarbons, and would triple the cost of the enegery that could be used (assuming that the purpose was NOT to burn the carbon).

Coal Gasification:"The heat and pressure break apart the chemical bonds in coal's complex molecular structure, setting into motion chemical reactions with the steam and oxygen to form a gaseous mixture, typically hydrogen and carbon monoxide." Hum, what to do with the carbon monoxide? Release it, or Burn It? Seems to me the purpose of this is remove sulfur, not carbon.

68 posted on 01/25/2002 1:57:38 PM PST by John Jamieson
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To: John Jamieson
Ok, getting more nebulous here....it's alleged to be more efficient...alleged to put more energy to whatever task per unit of fuel.

Here's a link to an article.

69 posted on 01/25/2002 1:58:47 PM PST by stboz
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To: stboz
school of thought that wonders now if elevated CO2 in the atmosphere is a RESULT of global warming, not a cause.

Just depends on who's funding the research to find out what the answer is going to be. I don't know who to listen to anymore.

EBUCK

70 posted on 01/25/2002 2:00:26 PM PST by EBUCK
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To: EBUCK
Wake up .....It's a SCAM! There ain't no free electricity!
71 posted on 01/25/2002 2:00:56 PM PST by John Jamieson
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To: John Jamieson
ALGORE
72 posted on 01/25/2002 2:02:02 PM PST by MotleyGirl70
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To: rightofrush
The only way that hydrogen gereration is possible as an economic alternative to natural gas is to use solar cells by the ocean

Wind is still insignificant and unreliable, but it is growing. Solar cells are still expensive as diamond jewelry, but that should continue to develop slowly as well. Nothing on the horizon will touch oil/natural gas pricewise for a long time. Maybe coal gassification is the next serious source.

73 posted on 01/25/2002 2:02:43 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: stboz
"Once broken up, the carbon atom combines with the oxygen atoms from the methanol and water at the negative electrode to form carbon dioxide."

I see....you still make CO2, you just don't get any of the energy from it. About two thirds of the total energy availble from the methanol is wasted as heat. Must hard to keep this fuelcell cool. Stick in your IC engine and be done with it.

74 posted on 01/25/2002 2:10:20 PM PST by John Jamieson
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To: Wonder Warthog
Please point out the "years out of date stuff" so I can fix this "shallow article".
75 posted on 01/25/2002 2:17:53 PM PST by John Jamieson
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To: John Jamieson
The biggest problem is that the 10-20 year projection on fusion ASSUMES that the project ever gets funded. After Congress gets through slashing the budget and turning the money over to people submerging crucifixes in jars of urine, the projection becomes "never."
76 posted on 01/25/2002 2:21:53 PM PST by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
I agree. The purpose of government is to fix really big problems, not the social crap.
77 posted on 01/25/2002 2:24:41 PM PST by John Jamieson
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To: John Jamieson
Stick in your IC engine and be done with it.

Have to agree! I had a '72 240Z a long time ago. Took off the EGR junk, fiddled with the carbs and timing, put a set of Cyclone headers on it....it was a rocket. Used to go hunting 924s to beat up on. 30 mpg at 70 mph, too.

78 posted on 01/25/2002 2:25:27 PM PST by stboz
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To: John Jamieson
"Hum, what to do with the carbon monoxide? Release it, or Burn It? Seems to me the purpose of this is remove sulfur, not carbon."

See solid oxide fuel cells (SOFC). It will quite nicely utilize the CO-H2 mix. Sure, you do emit SOME carbon dioxide in the final gas, but the efficiency is far higher than combined-cycle gas turbine plants.

79 posted on 01/25/2002 2:29:57 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: stboz
The horsepower race is in full swing now. $1 gas, 345hp SUVs, 180hp VW Bugs. I never would have guessed it in '78 when I bought a new 170hp Corvette. Figured gas would be $5 by now.
80 posted on 01/25/2002 2:31:03 PM PST by John Jamieson
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