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Ex-CIA agent believes in a John Doe 2
indpls/star ^ | 032302 | JAMES PATTERSON

Posted on 03/23/2002 7:40:07 AM PST by InvisibleChurch

Though the U.S. government clings to the notion that Timothy McVeigh, acting alone, set off the horrendous explosion on April 19, 1995, that pancaked the nine-story Oklahoma City federal building, a former high-ranking CIA official says there's solid evidence to indicate he worked with an Iraqi John Doe No. 2.

Larry Johnson, former CIA officer and deputy director of the State Department's Office of Counterterrorism, told a network news show this week the FBI had failed to properly investigate significant eyewitness accounts of McVeigh meeting with the man believed to be a former Iraqi soldier.

Johnson made those comments on The Big Story with John Gibson, a Fox news program airing nightly at 5 p.m., which delved into an extensive dossier on the case compiled by former Oklahoma TV reporter Jayna Davis. The program aired just days after a lawsuit filed by the watchdog organization Judicial Watch that alleges Iraqi involvement in the Oklahoma City bombing and seeks compensation for victims from frozen Iraqi assets.

Davis, who reported from Ground Zero in Oklahoma City for NBC-affiliate KFOR, broadcast a series suggesting a possible accomplice to the bombing who had been seen with McVeigh on the days leading up to and the day of the bombing. Gibson unabashedly reported Davis' work to a national TV audience on three consecutive days this week.

On Monday, Gibson relayed that Davis' evidence is based "on the simple proposition that Tim McVeigh's John Doe 2 was an Iraqi, a former Iraqi soldier from the Gulf War, paroled into the U.S. under a claim of political asylum, known to be in Oklahoma City as of November of '94 almost a year before the Murrah bombing, spotted with McVeigh by multiple witnesses, and who in recent years was working at (Boston) Logan airport," where the Sept. 11 hijackings originated.

On Tuesday, Gibson posed the question to Johnson about a possible link between Iraq and Oklahoma City.

"I think this woman (Davis) has done a remarkable job of finding a link that was overlooked," Johnson said. Johnson also commented on a Justice Department review of the thousands of documents that resurfaced or were destroyed, delaying McVeigh's execution for a month.

"The FBI . . ., they still have not turned over all of the documents to the defense teams that came out of Oklahoma," he said. "In particular, the information that links, shows possible links to Middle Eastern subjects."

KFOR's reports distorted the face of one of those suspects and did not name him. However, on his own volition, a former Iraqi soldier who claims he surrendered to the U.S. in the Gulf War and who was brought to the United States from a refugee camp in Saudi Arabia, stepped forward and identified himself to two other Oklahoma City TV stations and The Associated Press as the man that KFOR had implicated as John Doe No. 2.

Hussain Hashem Alhussaini sued KFOR and Davis for defamation, saying the reports falsely identified him as John Doe No. 2. But a U.S. District Court disagreed. In ruling for KFOR, U.S. District Judge Timothy Leonard found in November 1999 that the station had taken extraordinary measures to hide Alhussaini's identity.

Leonard added that KFOR's reports were either "based on fact or a matter of opinion," and not negligence or reckless disregard for the truth. Alhussaini, who went to work at Boston's Logan International Airport after leaving Oklahoma City, continues to deny any involvement in the bombing. Former CIA Agent Johnson is unconvinced.

"I compared it to all the human intelligence I've looked at," he said. "And comparing it to classified material, this is not from just one witness, this is not from two witnesses; you're talking 23 people, you're talking at least 10 people who put Tim McVeigh with Hussain Alhussaini before the Oklahoma City bombing.

"Two people who identified Hussain Alhussaini and Tim McVeigh in a bar on April 15; three people who identified Hussain Alhussaini running from the federal building early in the morning at 5:30 as if he is practicing timing himself. You have two witnesses that put Tim McVeigh with Hussain Alhussaini in the Ryder truck; you have one witness inside the Murrah Building who sees Hussain Alhussaini eating out of the truck . . .

"The point is the FBI has not thoroughly, fully investigated this. It is an outrage. I went along for many years thinking they have covered the bases. They have not, John."

You can't say Davis didn't try. She tried to give the witness statements to the FBI in the fall of '97, but it wouldn't take them.

not for commercial use

TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Japan; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; Unclassified; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: city; doe; john; mcveigh; okcbombing; oklahoma; timothy
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1 posted on 03/23/2002 7:40:07 AM PST by InvisibleChurch
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To: InvisibleChurch
There might be Islamic money and influence that assisted McVeigh, but come on folks, he confessed. He had a plan, he carried it out. His motivations are well known. He was not a mere puppet of terrorists. He was himself a terrorist -- a white guy terrorist.

Naturally it would be a good thing if anyone else that was involved was tracked down. But still, the real main culprit was caught and punished.

2 posted on 03/23/2002 8:04:03 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: InvisibleChurch; OKCSubmariner; bluedogdemo
I see James Patterson is still on the case.
3 posted on 03/23/2002 8:07:29 AM PST by aristeides
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To: InvisibleChurch
a former high-ranking CIA official says there's solid evidence to indicate he
worked with an Iraqi John Doe No. 2.

D   -   U   -   H . . .   ya think?

Those ex-CYA agents are just plum smart, ain't they!

< / stupid >

I am renewed in my preparations for the obviously impending AR2.  It seems to be shaping up into two sides. 

Side A. The "official stories" gang that stumbles about mumbling catch phrases, PC garbage and sound bites from last night's evening news.

Side B.  The "Reality" gang which can usually be spotted by their command of three+ syllable words and accurate grasp of Constitutional issues.

What is just too funny is the "Official Stories" gang are busy encouraging all of their devotees to disarm themselves!  Well, no one ever accused them of being the sharpest tools in the shed....

4 posted on 03/23/2002 8:11:45 AM PST by TLI
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To: InvisibleChurch
Of course Timmy had help, but the Famous But Incompetents (FBI) wanted to look like they got their man and stopped with Timmy. The FBI doesn't have what it takes to catch criminals. Even Timmy was caught on a traffic stop by a local cop. The FBI can only shoot people in their homes. When confronted on the streets they come up the losers that they are. The FBI has a history of being Ivy League Keystone Cops.
5 posted on 03/23/2002 8:35:40 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: PatrioticAmerican
You have got to read the book, The Oklahoma City Bombing and the POlitics of Terrorism. When you read that book, and put it down, you will have nothing but fear and contempt for your government. There was a John Doe #2. It could have been Mohammed Atta, it definitely looks like Strassmeir. There were many people involved in this and none of them other than two people have been taken down for it. This was an event used to facilitate an agenda.
6 posted on 03/23/2002 8:42:22 AM PST by MadRobotArtist
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To: aristeides;honway;Nita Nupress;RoarNLion; Leper Messiah;Uncle Bill;OKCSubmariner
For more on Hussain Al-Hussaini, see:
7 posted on 03/23/2002 8:49:54 AM PST by Wallaby
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To: jlogajan
There might be Islamic money and influence that assisted McVeigh, but come on folks, he confessed.

Now how do you know that? He never did a public interview and only a very select few were allowed to see him. There's no video where he confessed to anything.

8 posted on 03/23/2002 8:52:18 AM PST by joeyman
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To: InvisibleChurch

john doe #2 on right
Compare with the guy on the right below, one of the two the FBI arrested in New Jersey in October:

9 posted on 03/23/2002 8:56:54 AM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: InvisibleChurch
The Murrah building was the home of the FBI in that area. On the day of the explosion, how many FBI workers and agents were killed?

I have never seen any info on this.

I have been told, however, that NONE were killed.

10 posted on 03/23/2002 8:57:29 AM PST by antidemocommie
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To: InvisibleChurch
Anyone who has read up on this case knows that the FBI's behavior stinks to high heaven. The most likely theory is that Hussain Alhussaini was one of a number of Arab terrorists who were working for the FBI and/or the CIA as "double agents." They covered up for him because otherwise it would have gotten out that they knew about the plot ahead of time but failed to stop it. The evidence is overwhelming. Read Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's book on Clinton, and read Brigadier General Partin's analysis of the bombing and his expert statement that there must have been at least three more explosive devices attached to the concrete pillars in the basement. McVeigh was only a bit player. No doubt he was involved, but he was hardly the mastermind behind the plot.

The ATF and the CIA were also clearly involved.

11 posted on 03/23/2002 9:01:39 AM PST by Cicero
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To: InvisibleChurch
Alhussaini, who went to work at Boston's Logan International Airport after leaving Oklahoma City, continues to deny any involvement in the bombing.

Anyone else find this choice of employment opportunities to be strangely coincidental?

12 posted on 03/23/2002 9:13:31 AM PST by Excuse_Me
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To: MadRobotArtist
"This was an event used to facilitate an agenda."

I agree. In fact, I've wondered whether Timothy McVeigh was actually used as a red herring. Perhaps he was told that if he would admit to doing it, he would end up in the witness protection program. That may have been why he was so calm during the trial. OTOH, maybe I should join the tin-foil cap crowd?


13 posted on 03/23/2002 9:40:17 AM PST by CDHart
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To: jlogajan
Naturally it would be a good thing if anyone else that was involved was tracked down.
But still, the real main culprit was caught and punished.

I generally held to the thought that McVeigh and Nichols could be the only part of
the story.
But even the trial judge (Maitsch, sp?) was offering deals to get McVeigh to spill his
guts if there were other unnamed participants, IIRC.

And even his own lawyer for the trial believes that McVeigh had plenty of other helpers,
so much so that he wrote a book about it:

Others Unknown: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing Conspiracy
by Stephen Jones, Peter Israel (Contributor)
14 posted on 03/23/2002 9:42:20 AM PST by VOA
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To: CDHart
I hate to say it, but you know, sometimes the Tinfoil hat crowd has that little nugget of truth that nobody wants to believe. If we all knew the truth about OKC, we might look a lot harder at WTC.

To me there is no difference. The CIA can tell me on any given day what I had for lunch, yet they couldn't stop 20 people from perpetrating the most heinous act on American soil since Pearl Harbor? The FBI monitors your phones and watches your purchases and yet they couldn't figure out that illegal Saudis were taking flying lessons? The FBI did nothing when a flight instructor raised the issue that he thought these people were going to do something bad? Come on, you tell me do you see what happened immediately after the attack? What laws went into effect? Laws take months to write. Look at how much legislation got passed after OKC, and now look at what is happening today.

There is a conspiracy. It's very obvious and plain to see. It's the fact that it is so unbelievable that our government would perpetrate it, makes everyone who thinks it's a conspiracy look like a wacko, or part of the tin foil hat crowd.

10 bucks says if you go back through all the OKC transcripts you will find there is a link between the two. Guaranteed.

15 posted on 03/23/2002 9:47:18 AM PST by MadRobotArtist
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To: *OKCbombing;_Jim;Black Jade
Check the Bump List folders for articles related to and descriptions of the above topic(s) or for other topics of interest.
16 posted on 03/23/2002 12:09:50 PM PST by Free the USA
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To: InvisibleChurch
Why did you post INRI...King of the Jews? Just curious.
17 posted on 03/23/2002 12:13:08 PM PST by Ann Archy
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McVeigh had "supporters" or shuld I say sympathizers if his motive was revenge for WACO..which was seen as somewhat patriotic....BUT he would be spit on by EVERYONE if he was known as a TRAITOR conspiring with IRAQIS!!! Double might have been a sting that TMcV was in on to catch the Iraqis, but literall blew up in his face. Will we EVER know???
18 posted on 03/23/2002 12:20:51 PM PST by Ann Archy
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To: MadRobotArtist
"10 bucks says if you go back through all the OKC transcripts you will find there is a link between the two. Guaranteed. "

There has always been a link, it just takes a little looking. (and ya ain't getting my 10 spot!)

Crank up the old search engines, here is the scoop.  I have had this stuff for so long (and posted it so many times...) I don't even remember where it came from....


The guy...

ANDREAS CARL STRASSMEIR is the son of Guenter Strassmeir, "the architect of German reunification" who was
once a top aide to German Chancellor Helmut Kohl. Andreas Strassmeir spent seven years in the German army and
later became chief of security at ELOHIM CITY. His first action there was to replace all deer rifles with assault weapons,
and to begin to hold military style training sessions. He told ATF snitch CAROL HOWE (according to Howe) that he
just wanted to blow up federal buildings.
Strassmeir told the London Telegraph that "I've never worked for any U.S
government agency, and I've not been involved in any intelligence operation since my discharge from the German
army in 1988." But he acknowledged he first lived in the U.S. in 1989 because "I was hoping to work for the operations
section of the DEA. It never worked out." More revealingly, he noted that "the right- wing in the U.S. is incredibly easy
to penetrate if you know how to talk to them. Of course it's easier for a foreigner with an accent. Nobody would ever
suspect a German of working for the federal government." Strassmeir was assisted in his unsucessful attempts to get
jobs with the DEA or INS by VINCENT PETRUSKIE, a retired Air Force Colonel and (Strassmeir says) CIA agent for
whom Strassmeir arranged to buy used Boeing 747s from Lufthansa. Strassmeir was described by MARK THOMAS as
a "nice, quiet, classically educated European," according to the Village Voice. Strassmeir received a social security
number in 1989 in Virginia, and obtained a Tennessee driver's license in 1992, using a Knoxville address provided by his
attorney Kirk Lyons. In 1991 some members of the Texas Light Infantry Brigade, a citizen's militia, followed Strassmeir
to a federal building and observed him entering it at night using the key-pad. The following year in 1992, Catina
Lawson, who lived in Herington, Kansas, remembers seeing Strassmeir along with TIMOTHY MCVEIGH, whom she
dated. Lawson recalled that Strassmeir "liked to dress in black, and he was real cold and arrogant--a real jerk." McVeigh
tried to reach Strassmeir by phone at ELOHIM CITY two weeks before the OKC bombing (on April 5). McVeigh also
called Strassmeir's lawyer Kirk Lyons the day prior to the April 19, 1995, bombing. Two other witnesses, Larry and
Cathy Wild, say they saw and talked with Strassmeir at a lake north of Herington the week before the OKC bombing
(Laura Frank, "Oklahoma Probe May Touch Tennessee," The Tennessean, June 30, 1996). Herington is the Kansas
location where McVeigh and TERRY NICHOLS supposedly bought and stockpiled the ingredients of an ANFO bomb
used in the OKC bombing, and where McVeigh is alleged to have rented a Ryder truck (although at the time McVeigh
was videotaped having a hamburger at a Junction City McDonalds). ATF informant CAROL HOWE says she cased the
Murrah Federal Building in OKC as a possible bombing target with Strassmeir and DENNIS MAHON. Strassmeir fled
back to Germany via Mexico after the McCurtain Gazette raised questions about his connection to the OKC bombing.
According to Strassmeir's attorney Kirk Lyons, Strassmeir was assisted in his escape by GSG-9, the German
counter-terrorism unit. A "highly-placed source at the FBI" confirmed to the McCurtain Gazette (July 14, 1996) that
Strassmeir was a paid ATF informant sent to infiltrate ELOHIM CITY.

Now, just what the heck is an atf informant doing by trying to buy a 747 ???

And why is he fishing for dupes to take out a building ?

How he got away....

2. Andreas Strassmeir.

Andreas Strassmeir is a German national whose father is a well regarded and
successful politician in the Christian Democrat Coalition who recently
retired as Secretary of State for West Germany, but whose grandfather was a
founding member of the German Nazi party. D.E. 3123 at 14. Strassmeir was in
this country illegally on an expired visa on April 19, 1995. Id. (Exhibits
"F" and "H"). Subsequently, when Strassmeir became the subject of intense
media and defense scrutiny, his attorney, Kirk Lyons, a well-known North
Carolina lawyer whose principal clients are members of the most violent and
extreme wing of American politics, openly boasted that he had "spirited"
Strassmeir out of the country through Texas, Mexico and France, telling his
supporters that it would
be "easier to defend Strassmeir from Germany than from inside a federal
detention facility." Id. at 14 (Exhibit "H").

How 'bout them "Open Border Policies"?  Gettin steamed yet?   There's more...

Here is the link...

1. Dennis Mahon.

Dennis Mahon is a virulent racist and avowed enemy of the U.S. government.
He is the No. 3 person in authority in the White Aryan Resistance movement
led by Tom Metzger. D.E. 2191 at 10. There are videotapes featuring Mahon,
in full Ku Klux Klan uniform, lighting a cross at a Klan recruiting trip in
Germany, and yet another videotape of Mahon firing a semi-automatic rifle
during paramilitary training for Klan members. Mahon conducted a "tour" in
Germany in order to recruit other right-wing extremists. The costs of the
trip were split between Mahon and his "German supporters." Mahon joked that
if he was fined the usual 1,000 Deutsche Marks (approximately $600) for
every time he gave the Nazi salute, he would owe 10,000,000 Marks,
explaining "I gave hundreds while I was there."

Mahon is headquartered in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and has referred to the Oklahoma
City bombing as a "fine thing" and stated further, "I hate the federal
government with a perfect hatred . . . I'm surprised that this [the bombing]
hasn't happened all over the country." He has further been quoted as saying
that "all methods are legitimate to save your nation." D.E. 2191 (Exhibit "M").

The Iraqi government has given Dennis Mahon thousands of dollars over the
past six years. Mahon has admitted to receiving money from Iraq
approximately once a month and stated that "it's coming from the same zip
code where the Iraqi Embassy is
, but they don't say it's from the Iraqi
Embassy." The money started arriving in 1991 after Mahon started holding
rallies protesting the Persian Gulf War. Mahon is a close friend of Andreas
, the ex-head of security at Elohim City and Mahon has lived at
Elohim City.

This is how the government hid the info, it's the oldest trick in the book.... they hid it right out in the open.

[11] See Scheduling and Rule 17.1 Conference--Sealed, January 29, 1997, at
60, 68.

The government in fact conducted an investigation of Mr. Strassmeir and Mr.
Mahon in the days immediately following the Oklahoma City bombing, and then
failed to follow through on the investigation, not because it was
unproductive, but because to pursue the investigation would in effect lead
back to the government's knowledge of prior warning.
Defense counsel is of
the opinion that the government has engaged in a willful and knowing coverup
of information supplied to it by its informant.

As a threshold matter, counsel for Mr. McVeigh have requested, in writing,
that the government provide information concerning Dennis Mahon and Andreas
Strassmeir since February 15, 1996. See D.E. 1923 Exhibit "N" (letter to
Beth Wilkinson requesting specific information concerning various
individuals, but specifically naming Dennis Mahon and Andreas Strassmeir).

On March 8, 1996, Mr. McVeigh filed a discovery motion, seeking specifically
intelligence information from the federal government and specifically
mentioning Dennis Mahon and Andreas Strassmeir.
See D.E. 1079 at 7 18, 19.
Dissatisfied with the government's responses, counsel filed a Motion to
Compel Production of Discovery Material on August 27, 1996, again,
specifically referencing Dennis Mahon and Andreas Strassmeir. See D.E. 1921
Exhibit "C."

On October 10, 1996, counsel for Mr. McVeigh amended the Motion to Compel
Production of Discovery Material, reiterating specific requests for
information concerning Dennis Mahon and Andreas Strassmeir. See D.E. 2265 at
34. Most recently, counsel addressed outstanding discovery requests in a
Supplemental Motion to Compel the Production of Discovery Information,
reiterating the previous specific requests for information concerning Dennis
Mahon and Andreas Strassmeir. See D.E. 2768 at 6-7.

In a nearly one-foot-thick pleading filed October 18, 1996, the government
responded to McVeigh's Motion to Compel the Production of Classified
Information, specifically including information the government possessed
concerning Dennis Mahon and Andreas Strassmeir.
See D.E. 2331. Absent from
that pleading, and also from the information responsive to defense requests
for information concerning Dennis Mahon and Andreas Strassmeir, was Insert
No. E-427, a report of interview by the AFT, which concerned a confidential
ATF source named "Carol." See D.E. 3313 (Exhibit "D"). Counsel for Mr.
McVeigh has now learned that "Carol" is actually Carol Howe, an ATF
informant at Elohim City, who had an intimate relationship with Dennis
Mahon, who knew Andreas Strassmeir, and whom ATF Agent Angela Finley
interviewed on April 21, 1995--two days after the bombing.

This particular Insert was brought to our attention by government counsel
during the in-chambers conference of January 29, 1997. See Reporter's
Transcription (Scheduling and Rule 17.1 Conference-Sealed) at 65, no docket
number assigned [hereinafter "Tr. _"]). Government counsel indicated to the
district court that this Insert had been disclosed to the defense on January
23, 1996, but candidly admitted that the government did not list this Insert
in its prior submissions to the district court because the government could
not find it through a computer search
. Id. at 66. The Defendant does not
credit this explanation, coming as it does after so many false, misleading
representations from a former intelligence officer now on the prosecution
team. The defense was unable to locate this "non-pertinent" Insert using a
computer because all major search terms contained in the Insert were
misspelled. Elohim City was misspelled or misidentified, as was Mahon,
Strassmeir, the Rev. Robert Millar, and, in addition, Carol Howe was not
identified in the Insert at all. Agent Finley's source was identified as a
"confidential source" named "Carol"--no last name given. Thus, it is not
even clear from the Insert that "Carol" was the confidential source's real
name.[l2] Elohim City was spelled "Elohm [sic] City," Dennis Mahon was
spelled "Dennis Mehaun," Reverend Robert Millar was spelled "Bob Lamar'" and
Andy Strassmeir was spelled "Andy Strasmeyer."


[12] Defense counsel is very suspicious of the multiple misspellings in this
FBI Insert. The Insert was generated as a result of an interview of Carol
Howe in Oklahoma City on April 21, 1995 conducted by Special Agent of the
FBI, James R. Blanchard, II, and Agent of the ATF, Angela Finley. It is
difficult to conceive how Agent Finley could participate in an interview
which would lead to the drafting of a memorandum in which every material
name (Matron, Strassmeir, Millar, and Elohim City) would be misspelled
because, according to Ms. Howe, Agent Finley was her "case handler" and
specifically knew that Howe's assignment was to infiltrate Elohim City and
become acquainted with Strassmeir, Mahon, Millar and others. If the Insert
was prepared without it being reviewed by the person who also participated
in the interview, another law enforcement officer, the process was
incredibly sloppy and unprofessional. If she did review the Insert, the more
likely scenario, she would instantly have known that all of the names were
misspelled. Defense counsel believes they purposefully were misspelled. It
is difficult to imagine how a Special Agent of the FBI can misspell "Matron"
and "Miller."

The fact that prosecutors themselves could not find the insert is not
surprising. There may have been a deliberate effort to deceive them and keep
from them information, which, in their professional responsibilities, they
would know had been turned over to the defense. This was the danger of the
so-called "open file" discovery. Everything was given to the defense, the
government argued, so thus if anything turned up which embarrassed the
government's case, it could always claim it had been "furnished" to the
defense (as indeed government counsel often did), but if it is furnished
amidst thousands and tens of thousands of sheets of paper so that it cannot
even be pulled up on a computer search, then the production is meaningless.

The names of Strassmeir and Mahon are hardly strangers to the discovery
disputes or to the government. Moreover, it emphasizes the need for court
intervention because not even the prosecution can protect itself against
efforts of either the FBI or the ATF to obscure and hide information by


Hate to say/think it BUT spotting the link makes this all just look like an old idea. Take out a building for hidden agenda political reasons, then draw attention to internal factions that ya don't like (anthrax/domestic).  Reads like recent newspapers or a playbook that got draged out of the round file, dusted off and farmed out to a offshore contractor.

And just think about ALL THAT MONEY WE PAY THESE 90K PER YEAR CLOWNS to "enlighten us" with their "revelations" and "sudden insight" into a "mystery" they "solved" after only 7 YEARS ? ? ?

I could just puke. 

< asbestos suite >

19 posted on 03/23/2002 12:46:11 PM PST by TLI
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To: Ann Archy

The letters "INRI" are initials for the Latin title that Pontius Pilate had written over the head of Jesus Christ on the cross (John 19:19). Latin was the official language of the Roman Empire.

The words were "Iesus Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm." Latin uses "I" instead of the English "J", and "V" instead of "U" (i.e., Jesus Nazarenus Rex Judaeorum). The English translation is "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."

20 posted on 03/23/2002 12:56:10 PM PST by InvisibleChurch
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