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The Nazis weren't Christians.
Opinion Journal ^ | MONDAY, MARCH 25 | ROBERT L. BARTLEY

Posted on 03/25/2002 6:29:51 AM PST by Skooz

Edited on 04/23/2004 12:04:20 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Holy Week is by no means all sweetness and light. This Friday Christians mark the crucifixion, a terrible event redeemed by the resurrection three days later. The Jews gather on Thursday for Passover, celebrating the Exodus from slavery as the angel of death skipped Jewish homes during Egypt's tenth plague, the killing of the firstborn. So perhaps it's not an inappropriate time to discuss another terrible topic, the Holocaust, and in particular the divisive issue of Christian culpability in the Nazi genocide of the Jews. It is not the purpose here to dismiss the long history of anti-Semitism in Christian lands. By now most Christians agree this was a sin, and its legacy surely played an important role in laying a groundwork for the Nazis and in muting opposition to the "final solution."


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Add to this the fact that Hitler removed the Bibles in all churches within the Reich and replaced them with Mein Kampf (in 1936, I believe) and those who wish to connect the dots between Christianity and Naziism have a very flimsy case indeed.
1 posted on 03/25/2002 6:29:51 AM PST by Skooz
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Oh, and also the fact that Hitler called the Apostle Paul "the most dangerous Jew."
2 posted on 03/25/2002 6:33:14 AM PST by Skooz
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To: Skooz
those who wish to connect the dots between Christianity and Naziism have a very flimsy case indeed.

Not only do they have a flimsy case, but they are idiots and slime balls, kind of like most democrats.

3 posted on 03/25/2002 6:36:42 AM PST by Mark17
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: daiuy
Sir - Your Christian's have such a great historie of killing people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come back when you learn to spell, use proper grammar, and know just a touch more about real "historie."

5 posted on 03/25/2002 6:50:13 AM PST by DallasMike
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To: Skooz
It included an intention to "exterminate irrevocably . . . the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800."

In 800 the Germans had been Christian for closing on 500 years. The only thing that 800 is famous for is the crowning of Karl der Gross as Roman Emperor. How this correlates to the introduction of Christianity in that year is a great mystery.

6 posted on 03/25/2002 6:51:21 AM PST by Restorer
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To: daiuy
People have a history of killing people. That people who call themselve Christians are not exempt from this fact of human nature is unsuprising. Adherants to other religions, and even the irreligious (such as Adolph Hitler), have a great deal more blood on their hands, much of it not yet dry.
7 posted on 03/25/2002 6:51:54 AM PST by jboot
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Skooz
For the record, were all of those that did the killing, Nazis, and thus non-christians? Where is the cutoff level for non-christians or were all of the millions of Germans caught up in that sad affair atheists???
10 posted on 03/25/2002 7:01:43 AM PST by cynicom
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To: daiuy
I will accept responsibility for all people killed in the name of Chrisitianity in the last 2000 years if you accept responsibility for the hundreds of millions killed in the name of atheism in just this century.

Deal?

11 posted on 03/25/2002 7:01:48 AM PST by 11th Earl of Mar
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To: jboot
National Socialist Germany saw the resurgence of Man as an instinctive animal, a part of nature, in contrast to the Christian dogma of man distinct and apart from nature. Man's animal self was repressed by the Nazarene creed, and the political dogmas it gave birth to. These anti-life forces, including Marxism, Christianity and capitalism, repressed the instinctive nature of Man.

A movement to promote Thulian ideas among industrial workers and to offset Marxism, was formed in 1918 –-the Workers' Political Circle - with Thulist Karl Harrer as chairman. From this came the German Workers' Party in 1919. A year later this became the NSDAP under the leadership of Adolf Hitler

13 posted on 03/25/2002 7:11:14 AM PST by scooby321
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To: 11th Earl of Mar
Deal?

Do you ever get the feeling you could have a more intelligent conversation with a brick wall, than this individual?

14 posted on 03/25/2002 7:12:25 AM PST by Mark17
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To: daiuy
And what question is that? Does it suprise you that human beings delight in murder, irrespective of thier faith or lack thereof? Do you see religion as the cause of this problem, rather than an attempt to answer it? If so, I suppose that you could believe that Hitlerism equals Christianity.

And, based on everything that we know about human beings, you would be terribly wrong, having placed the cart squarely before the horse. Could it be that you actually believe in the innate goodness of human beings? Do you adhere to the notion that human beings, left to their own devices, without creed or doctrine or tradition, would be peaceful, loving beings at one with one another and at harmony with the earth? If you do, your faith in human beings has become a religion in itself.

15 posted on 03/25/2002 7:18:44 AM PST by jboot
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To: Skooz
A good book to read to prove that nazis were anything BUT nazi's.. Trevor Revenscroff The Spear of Destiny. It Chronicles how the nazi party was founded on black magic and the principles of Darkness.. To get your mind blown away and see how evil The Nazis and Hitler actually were.It is a book well worth reading... Another thing Hitler was a huge Fan Of Richard Wagners operas but in Wagners last opera,Parsifal it showed the sacrifice of Christ.. And Hitler hated it cause it showed a lack of will to live by Christ. So Hitler banned Parsifal.. So if you are interested find the book. 173rd son.
16 posted on 03/25/2002 7:20:41 AM PST by daapfe
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To: Skooz
A good book to read to prove that nazis were anything BUT nazi's.. Trevor Revenscroff The Spear of Destiny. It Chronicles how the nazi party was founded on black magic and the principles of Darkness.. To get your mind blown away and see how evil The Nazis and Hitler actually were.It is a book well worth reading... Another thing Hitler was a huge Fan Of Richard Wagners operas but in Wagners last opera,Parsifal it showed the sacrifice of Christ.. And Hitler hated it cause it showed a lack of will to live by Christ. So Hitler banned Parsifal.. So if you are interested find the book. 173rd son.
17 posted on 03/25/2002 7:21:44 AM PST by daapfe
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To: daiuy
80MM+ in China
50MM+ in the Soviet Union
8MM in Cambodia
1MM in North Korea

And we can leave Hitler out of this, since you are apparently so thick that you don't understand the man's own words. Hitler called Christianity a "social scandal" against the German people and vowed the destruction of the Catholic church after he finished with the Jews.

We can also leave out the slaughter of the French Revolution, with infamous rape of the Vendee (nuns and priests being repeatedly raped to death, that sort of thing).

We can leave out the North Vietnamese communists because no one actually knows how many they killed.

When it comes to killing the innocent, nobody can beat the Atheists.

18 posted on 03/25/2002 7:22:05 AM PST by cicero's_son
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To: Skooz
At one presidential prayer breakfast, Bill Clinton offered the opinion that "Adolf Hitler preached a perverted form of Christianity."

Today, the NYT's Editorial Page opined as follows:

The nation may never again see a president with Bill Clinton's natural political talents, his instinctive grasp of policy and his breadth of understanding of governmental issues.

Clinton's Nazi slur of Christianity show that his "instinctive grasp" and "breadth of understanding" are terribly overrated.

19 posted on 03/25/2002 7:22:13 AM PST by mondonico
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To: cicero's_son
You are absolutely correct. It's not even close.
20 posted on 03/25/2002 7:24:35 AM PST by Skooz
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To: 11th Earl of Mar
Sir - Your hystoryie!!!

Sorry, I am just practicing my "daiuy" impersonation.

21 posted on 03/25/2002 7:25:56 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: scooby321
It is useful to note that the party philosophers were largely ignored by Hitler, who was by his nature an unimaginative and unenlightened autocrat. Many men attempted to convert Nazism into a religion, but Hilter actually supressed this notion, especially after Rosenberg published a sort of Nazi "bible" in the early thirties. Hitler saw any and all religion as an alien imposition on human nature and an impediment to the power of the state, and therefore himself. As has already been stated here, Hitler intended to liquidate the church, but not before establishing Greater Germany and thus ensuring his position and power for ever.
22 posted on 03/25/2002 7:34:27 AM PST by jboot
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To: Skooz
“The Third Reich” means third reign of the Holy Roman Empire. Nazism is a Catholic thing.
23 posted on 03/25/2002 7:37:22 AM PST by ibme
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To: daiuy
Are you ignorant of Stalin's purges in the '30s where he killed and starved between 100 and 200 million of his own people? Or the killing fields of Cambodia? Or even Tienemen Suare?

Or are you in agreement with these actions since they were in support of such a 'great cause'?

24 posted on 03/25/2002 7:37:52 AM PST by 11th Earl of Mar
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To: Skooz
For what it's worth, Dr. Gene Scott has said many times that Hitler was a member of the Catholic Church and was never excommmunicated.
25 posted on 03/25/2002 7:40:54 AM PST by Biblebelter
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To: ibme
First, I will state that I am a Protestant. Second, your statement that the Nazis were a "Catholic thing" is one of the dumbest statements I have seen on FR. Unfortunately, you could probably get full-tenure at a local college.
26 posted on 03/25/2002 7:46:03 AM PST by ohioman
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To: ibme
Hitler hated Christianity, especially Catholicism, whch he characterised as weak, feminine, passive, and most of all "Jewish".
27 posted on 03/25/2002 7:50:02 AM PST by Romulus
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To: ibme
Very funny! I like a good historical joke on Mondays.

Oh. You're serious?

The Third Reich refers to Hitler's reign, 1933-1945.
The Second Reich refers to the Wiemar Republic, 1919-1933.
The First Reich refers to Imperial Geramany, 1870-1918.

In no way is the Holy Roman Empire involved.

28 posted on 03/25/2002 7:56:24 AM PST by jboot
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To: Biblebelter
For what it's worth, Hitler's on record as seeking to flatter the German Evangelical Church by claiming that he identified with them more than any other Christian sect. Of course, this was a lie too, as he had no use for anything other than "Positive" Christianity, defined by party ideologues as an ethical culture driven by will, building character in service to the state.
29 posted on 03/25/2002 7:58:23 AM PST by Romulus
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To: Biblebelter
Hitler never held a formal church membership. He was probably baptised as an infant according to the custom of his community, although no record exists of this event. During the time that his family lived in Linz, Austria, he served as a choirboy at the local Catholic cathedral, and even fantasised about becoming a priest, but he was never confirmed. By age 12, he had lost all interest in the church, except for a lifelong fascination with church architecture.
30 posted on 03/25/2002 8:03:18 AM PST by jboot
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: Skooz
"The Nazis Weren't Christians."

No sh*t, Sherlock!

Clue #1...Arrested and persecuted Christian leaders.

Clue #2...Nazis encouraged revival of Teutonic supernatural symbolism.

Clue #3...No Bingo games at Party rallies....

This silly notion hardly merits rebuttal. If it wasn't for the dirt-dumb historical cluelessness cultivated by American public education it would scarcely be necessary to even discuss this farcical issue.

32 posted on 03/25/2002 8:07:09 AM PST by headsonpikes
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To: Skooz
Did anti-Jewish sentiment among Christians make them less sensitive, or even indifferent, to the persecutions . . . ?"

This is the common view among the liberal elite who control the educational apparatus in this country, and it is completely bogus when exposed to the light of any objective analysis. And yet, the myth of Christian complicity in the Holocaust remains accepted history to this day.

The reason is that it is the foundation upon which we in the west should never question Israeli policy, or the dollars that flow to Israel from the US. We are responsible for the Holocaust, don't you know, we OWE it to them. If you question Israeli policies or oppose the massive foreign aid to Israel, you are as guilty as the Nazis.

This is the message from America's media and Americans have bought it hook, line and sinker.

33 posted on 03/25/2002 8:17:04 AM PST by massadvj
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To: ibme
Congrats to you! Nazism came out of Southern Germany, the Catholic part of the nation. Keep in mind the number of American, French, etc. Catholics that died to rid the world of National Socialism. World War II was not about religion!
34 posted on 03/25/2002 8:21:38 AM PST by Blake#1
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To: 11th Earl of Mar
Are you ignorant of Stalin's purges in the '30s where he killed and starved between 100 and 200 million of his own people?

The left wing forgives Stalin because he was a leftist. Left wing genocide was and is ignored by leftist academics and media, so Americans were never worked up into a lather about it. But you are completely right if you say that Stalin was at least as bad and likely worse than Hitler.

Besides, Stalin was not as stupid as Hitler. He never took pictures.

35 posted on 03/25/2002 8:21:47 AM PST by massadvj
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To: ibme
“The Third Reich” means third reign of the Holy Roman Empire.

Are you retarded?

36 posted on 03/25/2002 8:23:12 AM PST by dead
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To: daiuy
Well, if you want to say that, let's put it in some perspective.

Just in the last 80 years alone Atheists have killed about 80 million

In the last 60 years Pagans have killed about 50 million.

In the last 85 years Muslims have killed a few million (1.5 million in 1915-16 alone).

A PBS documentary (and PBS is no friend of Christianity) said the numbers killed in the Spanish Inquisitions have been greatly overblown.. They put the number at a few thousand. And the Crusades, while a few of them really weren't justified, many of them were to free Christians who were being subjugated by Muslims. And I wonder if you know how many were killed by those Crusades? Let's test your historical knowledge.

37 posted on 03/25/2002 8:23:45 AM PST by GuillermoX
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To: mondonico
Clinton's Nazi slur of Christianity show that his "instinctive grasp" and "breadth of understanding" are terribly overrated.

Only if you believe his remarks were unintentional.

38 posted on 03/25/2002 8:30:00 AM PST by Interesting Times
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To: jboot
Reich [rk , rkh ] (plural Reichs) noun German empire: the German state or empire, especially the Holy Roman Empire (926-1806) or First Reich, the German Empire (1871-1919) or Second Reich, or the Nazi state (1933-1945) or Third Reich from Encarta
39 posted on 03/25/2002 8:30:08 AM PST by ibme
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To: Romulus
They signed the concordat with the Catholic Church. ===== From Encarta concordat con·cor·dat [kn káwr dàt ] (plural con·cor·dats) noun formal agreement: an official agreement, especially a formal contract between the Pope and a national government concerning the religious affairs of a country ======= It's just history. It is good to know the truth.
40 posted on 03/25/2002 8:37:56 AM PST by ibme
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To: jboot
The Nazis did in fact consider the first reich as the Roman Empire, ending in 1806.
41 posted on 03/25/2002 8:42:10 AM PST by cynicom
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To: cynicom
ALL...

Anyone that cares to look might check the Simom Wiesenthal Learning Center, they leave no doubt as to the connection to the Holy Roman Empire, as do most scholars.

42 posted on 03/25/2002 8:49:23 AM PST by cynicom
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To: ibme
They signed the concordat with the Catholic Church.

So what?

The Concordat of 1933 was simply an expansion of existing concordats between the Vatican and the German states of Bavaria, Baden, and Prussia. The Vatican had more than a century of concordats behind it at this point (starting with Napoleon in 1814); by the death of Pius XI in 1939 there were 41 separate concordats on the books.

A concordat is nothing more than an attempt to negotiate a legal document to ensure the Church's ability to function lawfully and unmolested with its just liberties intact. Your attempt to portray the 1933 concordat as evidence of sinister Catholic-Nazi complicity is a lie.

43 posted on 03/25/2002 8:50:00 AM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus
The Vatican was very much involved at the end of WW2, in "arranging" transit of Nazis out of Germany to safe havens in South America.
44 posted on 03/25/2002 9:13:04 AM PST by cynicom
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To: cynicom
You are correct (and I stand corrected), it that the Nazis considered the first German empire to have been the Holy Roman Empire.

This does not constitute a link between the Catholic church and nazism, but rather an attempt to link Nazism to a prior period of Germanic, as opposed to Catholic, rule. The Nazi concept of empire was a racist rather than religious notion. I am sure the Wiesenthal Center would disagree, but we can hardly consider them to be an impartial authority on this matter.

45 posted on 03/25/2002 9:18:18 AM PST by jboot
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To: headsonpikes
If it wasn't for the dirt-dumb historical cluelessness cultivated by American public education it would scarcely be necessary to even discuss this farcical issue.

Correct on all points. But I have debated some here on FR who will not be swayed otherwise. I even once received the reply that "the Nazi leadership were mostly devout Christians." That is the ignorance of some right here at FR.

46 posted on 03/25/2002 9:28:21 AM PST by Skooz
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To: ibme
The monumental ignorance of that statement is breathtaking.

The utter lack of historical knowledge in that statement is astonishing.

47 posted on 03/25/2002 9:29:46 AM PST by Skooz
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To: Interesting Times
A fair point. Clearly, he knew it was a slur and uttered it on purpose. I guess I meant that his worth was "overrated" from a normative sense: He may be smart, but we don't need his kind of smart leading the country.
48 posted on 03/25/2002 9:29:47 AM PST by mondonico
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To: cynicom
Anyone can throw mud. Do you have any documentation or evidence?
49 posted on 03/25/2002 9:42:31 AM PST by Romulus
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To: Skooz
bump...
50 posted on 03/25/2002 9:42:42 AM PST by VOA
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