New book says Christians suffered most

The Guardian UK ^ | 6/04/02 | Rory Carroll in Rome

[LarryLied]

There is a view that mentioning the Christians who have been slaughtered by communists denies the "uniqueness" of the Holocaust and is a sign of antisemitism. A nasty battle is going on over this in cyberspace so I won't link to anyone but the keywords are: ADL, Holocaust, uniqueness, unique.

[exmarine]

And your point is?

The fact of history is that muslims attacked Christendom first. If not for Charles Martel in France, all Europe would be facing Mecca 5 times daily. The muslims started it.

[NEWwoman]

The old rock group, The Byrds, turned these words into a mega-hit.

[JMJ333]

We are in total agreement, as evidence by the links that I can't get anyone to read. Both are detailed war accounts between Christiandom and Islam and include an excerpt about Martel. You may find them interesting. =)

I flagged you over the comment about indulgences. Do you take issue with it as spar does?

[exmarine]

Yes, I certainly take issue with indulgences. They are from Satan himself. You can't earn your way to heaven - it is a free gift through faith in Jesus Christ. Period. This sort of thing led to the Reformation. Thank you Lord.

[Salvation]

And the persecution (while mild by international standards) is becoming more intense and widespread, and it is being led by the U.S. Government and its agencies, the Supreme Court, public schools, and the media. At some point down the road, REAL persecution is going to commence. Are you Christians out there ready to give it all up for Christ? It's a question we all need to ask ourselves.

A question we all need to ask ourselves. I have thought about this persecution and have experienced dreams of living in catacombs. The Catholic Church has been and will be persecuted.

[exmarine]

By the way, I did scan your links. I recognized them as a historical summary of islamic conquest. This should be must reading for all muslims, but especially all children in the United States. Islam is not peace - it is violence and death. While many nominal muslims are peaceful, I believe up to about 20% are of the radical violent sort and they are the TRUE faithful of islam, i.e. the fundamentalists.

[exmarine]

Jewish people don't have a corner on suffering. However, I will gladly stand with them against the terrorists. I believe that love for the jewish people should be intuitive and reflexive for every born again Christian.

[Ohioan]

Mr Socci supports Israel and does not dispute the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust but by framing the genocide in such a context he had minimised its significance, said Alberto Melloni, an author and religious historian.

"The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

I have no idea who Alberto Melloni may be, but he is playing a subtle game that serves only a Leftist Agenda. He seems bent upon creating deep antagonisms among people searching for answers; while interfering with rational Conservatives recognizing the pattern that is very evident to anyone who will look. While in this quote, he doubtless wishes to appear to be a friend of Europe's Jewish minority, it would be difficult to imagine anything more likely to isolate them in a manner reminiscent of the Nazis.

To put this subject in perspective, for those who want to understand why Socialists engage in systematic mass killings, see The Cult Of "The Holocaust"--Golden Calf Of The Twentieth Century. Without such understanding, the killings of successful people will continue to recur. For Melloni to suggest that Socci's statistics are meaningless tells us a great deal indeed about Melloni.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

[JMJ333]

Thank you for the reply. I think many people share a misunderstanding of what indulgences are and what they encompass.

An indulgence is is a removal of all or some of the punishment due to already forgiven sin because of the performance of a good deed or the saying of a prayer.

This is an issue Luther used against the Catholic Church in his 95 Theses. Specifically, because the Pope had granted a plenary indulgence to those who would donate money toward the building of the Vatican [St. Peter's]. Then as now, many didn't understand the teaching and believed Luther when he falsely accused of us "selling" the indulgence to gain access to heaven.

I disagree with Luther's view and condemnation of indulgences. He said that we could never do anything to remove the punishment we deserved. I believe God is loving and merciful to those who repent with a sincere heart.

Thanks for scanning my links.

[Phillip Augustus]

The Crusades were justified, Ben. That it is not to say that certain war-crimes were not committed by Crusaders, but the Crusades were a reasonable, legitimate response to nearly 500 years of aggressive Jihad. Remember, the Holy Land was Christian prior to the Crusades, and Islamized by the Jihad; North Africa was Christian prior to the Crusades and Islamized by the Jihad; and the same is true of Spain. It was time to meet the Jihad with an iron fist, and by golly the Crusaders went to do just that.

[Phillip Augustus]

I would like to read such an article, for purposes of countering defamatory propaganda against Christian Spain. Please post it or freep me with it.

[Phillip Augustus]

My bad, as I tend to do, I responded without reading the rest of the thread.

[JMJ333]

From google: "Alberto Melloni teaches at the Third University of Rome and directs the Higher Research Training School of the John XXIII Foundation for Religious Sciences in Bologna.?

It seems that he is one of those liberal relativists who love to make victims of everyone to suit his agenda. As a Catholic, I claim him not.

[JMJ333]

I see you found the link to the article in post 52. Regards. =)

[Ohioan]

I can certainly understand that you wouldn't want to claim him. But his interesting background that you uncovered, certainly should pose some additional questions:

From google: "Alberto Melloni teaches at the Third University of Rome and directs the Higher Research Training School of the John XXIII Foundation for Religious Sciences in Bologna.

Don't you agree that it is very strange that one with such a niche would thrust himself forward as a spokesmen for which massacres should be taken seriously? I suppose that he would respond that his training goes to determine whom is properly considered a martyr, but he has distinguished massacres that really are not so distinguishable.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

[belleoftheball414]

Human beings have always fought each other for their beliefs. Every group of people has been tortured, killed, or held captive simply because of their faith. It's silly and, in a strange way, egotistical, for people to walk around saying that their people were killed more than somebody elses people. This entire thread is silly in that respect.

I agree with the posters who believe that there's bias when it comes to religious persecution. After 9 years of taking History in public schools, I've never heard anything about Christians being slaughtered for their faith. I'm not sure whether I feel differently about my people being killed than I feel about my Jewish friend's people being killed. One death by religious persecution is just as horrible as another.

My heart goes out to all who are victims of religious persecution. I wish against Fate that it would stop, but human nature often gets in the way of such wishful dreaming.

God Bless!

*Belle

[JMJ333]

I find it odd, indeed. Catholics, however, are obviously not immune to the relativism that has pervaded western culture so completely. No doubt though, some at the ACLU would agree with his ridiculous statements. It really is coming down to a small core group of true faithful in both Christianity and Judaism. I am in the mood to hunt down his e-mail address and send him a letter asking him what he is smoking.

[Spar]

Orthodox Christians have been defending themselves against Islam since Heraclius. The Catholics were late comers to the struggle and sometimes did the struggle harm. You will find no defending of Islam from me.

[Spar]

Charles Martel? And here I thought Byzantium did all the shielding for Europe for 1,000 years.