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To: stryker
Whether socialism exists depends upon whether the means of production has been nationalized. . . .Most everyone seems to be getting this point now, and distinguishing the two forms of statism, but you are beating a dead dog.

The "point" of thread is not whether Germany between 1933 and 1945 was a perfectly socialist nation. The point is whether or not that "socialism=Nazi" and whether Hitler was a socialist. The latter point is problamatic since Hitler was a power-mad liar and I believe, like Clinton, was a economic pragmatist rather than an ideologue. Of course, I believe that about most socialists in general.

The former point is pretty indisputable: Here are the 25 points of the Nazi Party, which is basically group's founding document.


1. We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.

4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

5. Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen. We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all. Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand: (a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens. (b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language. (c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich. Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple: COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations. The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

Note especially points 12, 13, 16 and 17. The Nazis were INARGUABLY, INDISPUTABLY socialists.

206 posted on 06/26/2002 8:28:28 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Tribune7
"Whether socialism exists depends upon whether the means of production has been nationalized. . . .Most everyone seems to be getting this point now, and distinguishing the two forms of statism, but you are beating a dead dog." Nice job debunking this.

I would add two points. First, the main German socialist party, the SDP, essentially abandoned the goal of state ownership of the means of production in the late 19th Century. Basically what happened is that Bismarck and the conservatives agreed to establish a cradle to grave welfare state if the socialists would drop nationalization. So, the NAZI platform is not markedly different than mainstream German socialism on this issue.

The second point is to look at who elected the NAZI's. The electoral maps of the last two German elections before the NAZI dictatorship was elected showed conservative support roughly static, winning primarily traditionally conservative constituencies in the south and west. The dramatic change was the majority of socialist constituencies which flipped from SDP to NAZI. Socialist voters put the NAZI's in power.

209 posted on 06/26/2002 2:17:09 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: Tribune7; My Identity; jodorowsky
The problem I think we might be having is not so much one of definitions as one of the classification of concepts.Perhaps we are using an incorrect genus.If the proper genus were used I think we would then be able to agree on the species that follow. The above is a reposting I am interested in your thoughts. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
210 posted on 06/26/2002 5:42:23 PM PDT by freeforall
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To: Tribune7
What people say and what they do are two different things. A man may say he is a lawyer, but find himself in a mental institution, and we would not agree that he is a lawyer. Try reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," and then, if you can be objective, come back to me and honestly tell me if you think the Nazi's nationalized the means of production. You will find that their Brownshirts were the primary means by which the ruling elite broke the German unionist movement and executed the leaders of the Socialist and Communist parties. Fascists are and will forever be the absolute opposite of socialists and communists, the party of the death throes of capitalism that arises to put down the radical socialists and communists that always arise and gain increasing power when a capitalist country is in crisis. For heaven's sake, read a bit about what really happens under these people before you form your judgments. Their propaganda is irrelevant. If it were not, I would jump on the communist train with all due speed: no government at all! Sounds like heaven on earth.
219 posted on 06/26/2002 8:41:18 PM PDT by stryker
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