Retired Airline Pilot sues NTSB for "Zoom-climb" data

http://www.twa800.com/lahr/lahr-amended.htm ^ | 7/27/02 | John Fiorentino

[JohnFiorentino]

Retired airline Pilot Capt. Ray Lahr has brought suit against the NTSB for release of the data pertaining to the alleged "zoom-climb" by TWA800. NTSB has stated that this event was what the hundreds of witnesses observed prior to the TWA800 explosion.

You can view the amended complaint in it's entirety here:

http://www.twa800.com/lahr/lahr-amended.htm

[FormerLurker]

And BTW, it is the nature of your behavior here where you make grand claims as to your expertise yet provide no information as to why we should believe any of those claims that might give rise to some suspicions concerning you.

It is your attacks and ad hominiem that distinguishes you from other posters here, as you appear to have an agenda that has nothing to do with determining facts in relation to the topic at hand.

For those reasons, yes, I am suspicious of what your REAL agenda is here.

[Asmodeus]

"You aren't even that good at ad hominiem attacks".

I didn't create the term "tinfoil hat". It's applied all over the internet to conspiracy theorists.

Your postings #672 and #673 dramatized that you are indeed a bonafide expert at making "ad hominiem" attacks and those postings were probably far beyond anything ever seen on FreeRepublic.

[Asmodeus]

FormerLurker has been repeatedly asked to provide the readers with his own self contained complete and tidy sequential timeline of the events surrounding the Flight 800 disaster for their comparison with the following - if or when he and Swordmaker reach an agreement on their differing opinions.

The timeline and location of the major events of the disaster was approximately as follows:

8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.

8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.

8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.

8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.

8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.
Source.

FormerLurker says: "The point at which ONE of the wings came off (notably the left wing) was at around 21:31:34:97" - which translates for comparison purposes to appropximately 8:31:35 - approximately 23 seconds after the IE.

FormerLurker also says: "As the massive fireball apparently occured at ~20:31:35 as that is where the left wing came off the plane, the altitude at that point should be around 3500 feet" - which translates for comparison purposes to approximately 8:31:35 - still approximately 23 seconds after the IE.

The MF "apparently occurred" at 8:31:35 at 3500 feet? It doesn't appear to have been "apparent" to the airborne witnesses.

It seems reasonable to assume the thousands of gallons of jet fuel in the left wing tanks began gushing out into the sky when that wing tore away from the fuselage and it's obvious that huge amount of jet fuel was the source of the Massive Fireball explosion.

But FormerLurker appears to be alleging that the Massive Fireball explosion was simultaneous - 8:31:35 - and at the same altitude - 3500 feet - as the detachment of the left wing from the fuselage.

Did witness McClaine see the Massive Fireball explosion at 8:31:35 - 23 seconds after the IE? His radio report of the MF to Air Traffic Control was timestamped at 8:31:50 - approximately 38 seconds after the IE. His reaction time to get on the radio was reportedly approximately 3 seconds which would put the time of the Massive Fireball explosion at approximately 8:31:47 - approximately 35 seconds after the IE.

Yet, FormerLurker appears to be alleging that McClaine's reaction time to get on the radio was 15 seconds. And, since McClaine's radio report of the MF was the first radio report of it, that all the rest of the airborne witnesses of the Massive Fireball explosion took even longer than 15 seconds to get on their radios.

And in view of the fact that McClaine's radio report of the MF was also the first radio report of ANYTHING unusual in the sky, where will the appearance of the streak of light be inserted in FormerLurker's own sequential timeline of events and what supporting evidence for that will he include for the readers?

And how will FormerLurker explain the contentions of ten metallurgists - four from the NTSB, three from Boeing, two from the FBI and one scientist consultant - that they found no evidence in the wreckage that TWA 800 was the victim of a missile or bomb?
Source.

[FormerLurker]

Your postings #672 and #673 dramatized that you are indeed a bonafide expert at making "ad hominiem" attacks and those postings were probably far beyond anything ever seen on FreeRepublic.

Oh, those were tame in relation to some I've seen. And they were less ad hominiem than statements of fact.

[Asmodeus]

"it is the nature of your behavior here where you make grand claims as to your expertise yet provide no information as to why we should believe any of those claims that might give rise to some suspicions concerning you."

Nonsense. I have simply truthfully stated that I've personally interviewed thousands of witnesses and personally analyzed the reports of thousands of other witnesses for 50+ years.

That is not what "gave rise to suspicions" of the tinfoil hats about me. It was my disagreement with the "shootdown" notion. For over six years the "shootdown" tinfoil hats have wildly and recklessly accused everybody who dared to disagree with them of being government agent disinformationalists engaged in the felonious criminal coverup of heinous crimes, without ever presenting one shred of supporting evidence for their sinister suspicions. I'm just one of the thousands that have been so accused falsely.

I'm not about to provide you and your ilk with the names of my business clients for the last 50+ years so you can broaden that outrageous rampage.

[jammer]

For the rest of us, I think we'd like to see COMPLETE calculations, . . .

You have taught me some good stuff, even if I disagree. But this sentence is the most correct you've written. Isn't that what Lahr wants also?

[Swordmaker]

Yes, we do agree, Lurker. In fact, had I not been short of time this morning I was going to comment on that very fact.

I think that the fall was ballistic with a very minor variation from the various drag factors... and perhaps a little lift in random directions. The minor forces from lift and drag are small compared to the momentum of the crippled aircraft.

The nose did fall ballistically... but the mass of the nose and hence its momentum (only ~12% (est.) of the momentum of the main mass of the fuselage) would be more quickly overcome by the drag. That is why it fell more closely to the initiating event.

I am curious why you feel it is necessary to postulate a aerodymanic dive when all of the evidence fits exactly with the calculated ballistic fall. Since the evidence denies a climb, the math works for a ballistic fall (initiating point, wreckage location, speeds, etc.), and there are enough unknowns to keep eveyone guessing for a long time, why ignore William of Occam's razor and invent a complex solution that doesn't fit the observed facts?

However...

Now that you have modified your "leveling out" to a 45 degree dive and dropped the idea of it being a "power dive" I can mostly agree with you. I think we can come to a middle ground where my ballistic fall is tempered with your aerodynamic fall. There is about 6 seconds of uncertainty in our data which could result in either being close to correct. What cannot fit at all is a climb of any significance which would add fall time.

One other thingb becomes clear. That is the fact that in either of our scenarios (or even that of the CIA/NTSB) the Center Wing Tank exposion as the initiating event is untenable... being that the tank was composed of LOAD BEARING (both in tension and compression) members and if they are compromised their ability to bear those loads would be extremely doubtful.

I had a thought looking at the debris field plots. The lightweight, wind driven debris form a random area near and south of where the nose came to rest. This random field is where it is because of wind and momentum if each piece. We know the velocity and vector of the wind. The momentum of each piece could be estimated. It should be possible to plot these out and find a matching average curve back to the initiating event and perhaps give us a better idea of exactly when along the flight path the fuselage opened up spilling such lightweight stuff out.

What do you think? The devil might be in the lightweight details...

[FormerLurker]

FormerLurker has been repeatedly asked to provide the readers with his own self contained complete and tidy sequential timeline of the events surrounding the Flight 800 disaster for their comparison with the following - if or when he and Swordmaker reach an agreement on their differing opinions.

You see Asmodeus, NOBODY knows for sure what happened at exactly what time. Although witness statements DO in fact relate what appears to be one or more missiles in flight which caught up to TWA 800 and detonated, the TIMES that those observations were made are mostly subjective and inaccurate.

Perceptions of time vary drastically when observing a event under stress or when viewing something extraordinary. If someone had videotaped the entire sequence of events, we might have a more accurate picture of what happened in relation to time. The best video that has been put together in relation to witness accounts can be seen by clicking below;

Recreation of witnesses Gipe and Angelides view of the crash

Witness positions also need to be taken into account in relation to what they observed. You have made no effort to understand that factor Asmodeus. Commander Donaldson, the distinguised Naval officer that you continually disparage in your offhand remarks, HAS performed said analysis on the other hand. In fact, he has put together a chart that indicates where each major witness was in relation to the event.

Click on the image for the .PDF chart

As I said, the best record of what happened and when would be if we had a videotape of the incident with a properly calibrated digital clock to indicate the exact time in relation to the events. As far as I know, there is no such videotape.

HOWEVER, we DO have a radar graph that plots the position of TWA 800 at precise times, in addition to the debris field which indicates where the pieces of the plane came down. THIS is THE best data that we have in relation to time. That is why is is so important to consider ALL of the factors involved in what we can see from that data. And THAT is why Swordmaker and I are still discussing the data and the factors that came into play while the events unfolded. And THAT is why I have no firm timeline as of yet, although we CAN see certain things that are and aren't possible from the analysis we've performed up to now.

On the other hand, you pull numbers out of the air that have no bearing in fact, where you contradict your OWN sources that you provide on your webpage. I've already shown where those inconsistencies are in post #636, although I mistakingly attributed your source as James Kalstrom, whereas apparently your source is a CIA letter TO James Kalstrom. I had later admitted to said error, but the fact still remains that your timeline conflicts with your own sources.

8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.
8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.

Exactly where do you come up with this "immediate commencement of the decapitation process"? The NTSB itself has stated that the nose appears to have separated at around 20:31:16, which is 4 seconds AFTER the original initiating event. But hey, you might be right as the witnesses DO state that the TWO high velocity detonations appear to have occured in rapid succession, so perhaps the nose DID separate sooner than the NTSB claims..

8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.

Now WHERE exactly are you pulling THAT figure from? The streak of light appeared BEFORE the TWO detonations, and BEFORE the FIRST fireball seen by witnesses. THAT fireball more than likely was the CWT igniting resulting in what was perceived as a fireball. This "fireball" however fell at the same rate as TWA800, as it was caused by flaming fuel which had escaped from the CWT and sprayed all over the plane. So TWA800 itself was on fire and falling.

8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.

This again is in conflict with the source that you continuously refer to. At 20:31:47, TWA800 was at most 8 seconds away from impact, and probably closer to 4 or 5 seconds by observing the radar returns.

Even IF it took 8 seconds to impact the ocean from 20:31:47, AND with a high terminal velocity of say 500 feet/sec, TWA 800 would have been less than 5500 feet if we calculate the altitude using those figures;

height = 500 * 8 = 4000 feet

HOWEVER, once TWA800 lost its left wing, it more than likely became aerodynamically unstable and fell apart. This would result in rapid deceleration due to air friction, so the terminal velocity at that point was probably closer to 325 feet/sec for the main body of the aircraft. This would result in a even lower altitude for the aircraft at 20:31:47;

height = 325 * 8 = 2600 feet

So you see, you have to take ALL of the factors into account to come up with a proper estimate of where it was and when...

Using a terminal velocity of 325, we can see how high TWA800 would have been at around the time the left wing came off;

t = 20:31:35 - 20:31:55 = 20 sec height = 325 * 20 = 6500 feet

Hmm, now that IS over 5500 feet and less than 7500 feet. That MIGHT just be a good estimate of how high TWA800 was at that time. And that IS where the left wing apparently came off which would have resulted in the SECOND fireball, this one being MASSIVE due to the amount of fuel which would have ignited from the wing tanks.

8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.

Sorry, but is obvious by looking at the radar returns and location of the main body of the aircraft in the debris field that it impacted between 20:31:50 and 20:31:55.

The MF "apparently occurred" at 8:31:35 at 3500 feet? It doesn't appear to have been "apparent" to the airborne witnesses.

Well it isn't apparent that your chart says much to contradict that figure either, as some of the witnesses estimated the altitude to be between anything from 3000 to 8000 feet. And as I stated above, with a terminal velocity of 325 feet/sec instead of 450 feet/sec, the altitude at that point could be as high as 6500 feet rather than 3500 feet. Without any altitude data, we can only give our best estimates, which may in fact be a range of values.

So one could say that using the available data, TWA800 lost its left wing at approximately 20:31:35. It was at an altitude of approximately 3500-6500 feet, and at the moment the left wing separated from the aircraft, the fuel from the wing tank ignited into a massive fireball.

Yet, FormerLurker appears to be alleging that McClaine's reaction time to get on the radio was 15 seconds. And, since McClaine's radio report of the MF was the first radio report of it, that all the rest of the airborne witnesses of the Massive Fireball explosion took even longer than 15 seconds to get on their radios.

Again, you are relying on times that may or may not be accurate, as there is no mention of whether the clock you mention was in fact calibrated to the same exact time as that indicated by the Islip radar returns. There may be a substantial discrepency, and you demonstrate no evidence indicating that the clocks were in fact calibrated to the same exact time.

Even if they were close, it would still be a matter of subjective perception, whereas the radar returns are not subject to such uncertainty, as those times were actually recorded in relation to the position of the aircraft.

And how will FormerLurker explain the contentions of ten metallurgists - four from the NTSB, three from Boeing, two from the FBI and one scientist consultant - that they found no evidence in the wreckage that TWA 800 was the victim of a missile or bomb?

In relation to our current discussion, those things haven't anything to do with the timeline. If you DO want to read something concerning reports from metallurgists, why don't you read the report from International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers;

[FormerLurker]

I'm not about to provide you and your ilk with the names of my business clients for the last 50+ years so you can broaden that outrageous rampage.

So I take it I'm right in that you are over 70 years old, and have been involved in private investigations.

That does NOT give you experience in analyzing witness statements in relation to aircraft accidents (or missile shootdowns for that matter). Neither does it make you an expert in the analysis of radar data. I'm not saying that I AM an expert, but it isn't impossible to do if you know a little about Physics. I'm not even saying that I'm an expert in that, but I do know enough to be able to apply it in various methods of analysis.

As far as these tinfoil hat comments of yours, drop those remarks and perhaps people would treat you a little better around here.

You say that there is NO evidence of intimidation of witnesses or those involved in the investigation. Well, I suppose you never looked into that deeply enough..

From International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers

Another interesting article concerning the "investigation".

From TWA 800: An Insider’s View

A new book details the experiences faced by several journalists who began looking into the destruction of TWA Flight 800, the airliner that blew up off the coast of Long Island in 1996, killing all 230 aboard. Titled Into the Buzzsaw, the book consists of accounts by journalists who challenged the official line and were either fired or came under considerable pressure. It was edited by Kristina Borjesson, a former CBS award winning producer and investigative reporter, who also wrote the title essay based on her own experience.

Borjesson defines it this way: "The buzzsaw is what can rip through you when you try to expose anything this country’s large institutions — be they corporate or government — want kept under wraps. The system fights back with official lies, disinformation and stonewalling." Her remarkable story is about the TWA crash, the investigation that followed and the media coverage of the tragedy.

A week after the crash, she was assigned to look into it. Bob Orr, who was assigned to the story for the CBS Evening News, told Borjesson that his sources were saying it was a mechanical failure, but she was hearing other things. CBS law enforcement analyst Paul Ragonese, a Brooklyn cop, told her he heard that the military was involved in something twelve miles out to sea. She wrote in her notes of what he said that there would be "finding absolutely of bomb or missile."

This led to an unbelievable journey for a woman who could not imagine herself, a self-described "elitist," trying to take on "America’s Journalist establishment." But the evidence piled up that government officials were lying and covering up. James Sanders, a retired cop turned author and reporter, had come into possession of two strips of foam rubber from seatbacks on Flight 800 that contained a red residue that tests proved to be consistent with missile exhaust. The FBI insisted it was just glue. Sanders gave Borjesson one strip for CBS to do a second analysis. She turned it over to her bosses, who under pressure from the FBI surrendered it to them.

Her story tracks the entire investigation. She explains how the evidence mounted. The debris field didn’t fit the government theory. Hundreds of eyewitnesses saw a streaking object collide with the plane. Radar data showed an object hit the plane. It also showed numerous vessels in or heading for an active military warning zone. She heard lie after lie from the government. She saw those lies parroted on CBS. Independent investigators were labeled conspiracy theorists. Hank Hughes, a veteran federal crash investigator, testified that the FBI had altered and tampered evidence and violated every normal investigative procedure.

---

And you HAVE heard of James Sanders haven't you?

Here's a couple of links concerning him...

WAR ON JOURNALIST JAMES SANDERS

The attack against James Sanders

Pilot and author charged with stealing TWA 800 wreckage

[FormerLurker]

What do you think? The devil might be in the lightweight details...

It usually is..

[Asmodeus]

Yahoo TWA800 Forum
From: "iconoclast"
Date: Fri Aug 23, 2002 10:44 am Subject: Re: [twa800] BTW all...........
[excerpt][quote]
John, Since running off to the USA to find a woman that was 10 years older than me - and looked 20 years older, my boss has not been happy with me. So I can't respond from work, I have to wait till I get home.

I need your e-mail address, or I'll give you mine - tj @ iconoclast.fsnet.co.uk. Of course the UK is a blind since I live in Switzerland, Kallstrom is still running aound the alps screaming about that Brit in the canoe - LOL!!!!

The virus you became so wound up about is on the loose all over the world John, it isn't personal - trust me. A woman I know up the road receives 12 of them a week, she teaches horse riding to the world, and uses so much e-mail that she is a target daily. She thought you were paranoid, I stood up for you, she said you weren't fit to live with pigs, I said you were... :-)

E-mail me John, I meant what I said about NEVER having seen a virus, and I am at far more risk than you are - take the advice offered, open nothing, delete any mail you don't know about, and even if it comes from someone you know, look at the title - remember the 'I love you' virus? My boss got that from an American customer, I stood behind him as he said 'These yanks, they are crazy' - this was from a MALE customer, and he opened it!!!!!
[end quote]

[JohnFiorentino]

What are YOU so concerned about Elmer?

[JohnFiorentino]

Computer Crime and
Intellectual Property Section (CCIPS)

How to Report Internet-Related Crime

Internet-related crime, like any other crime, should be reported to appropriate law enforcement investigative authorities at the local, state, federal, or international levels, depending on the scope of the crime. Citizens who are aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices of federal law enforcement.
Some federal law enforcement agencies that investigate domestic crime on the Internet include: the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the United States Secret Service, the United States Customs Service, the United States Postal Inspection Service and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). Each of these agencies has offices conveniently located in every state to which crimes may be reported. Contact information regarding these local offices may be found in local telephone directories. In general, federal crime may be reported to the local office of an appropriate law enforcement agency by a telephone call and by requesting the "Duty Complaint Agent."

Each law enforcement agency also has a headquarters (HQ) in Washington, D.C., which has agents who specialize in particular areas. For example, the FBI and the U.S. Secret Service both have headquarters-based specialists in computer intrusion (i.e., computer hacker) cases. In fact, the FBI HQ hosts an interagency center, the National Infrastructure Protection Center (NIPC), created just to support investigations of computer intrusions. The NIPC Watch number for reporting computer crimes is 202-323-3205. The U.S. Secret Service’s Electronic Crimes Branch may be reached at 202-406-5850. The FBI and the Customs Service also have specialists in intellectual property crimes (i.e., copyright, software, movie, or recording piracy, trademark counterfeiting). Customs has a nationwide toll-free hotline for reporting at 800-BE-ALERT, or 800-232-2538.

The FBI investigates violations of federal criminal law generally. Certain law enforcement agencies focus on particular kinds of crime. Other federal agencies with investigative authority are the Federal Trade Commission and the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

Many state and local entities also investigate and prosecute computer-related crimes. The National Association of Attorneys General (http://www.naag.org) has compiled a list of prosecutors and investigators from state and local law enforcement agencies who are responsible for the investigation and prosecution of computer and computer-related crime within their respective jurisdictions. More information on the NAAG's Computer Crime Point-of-Contact List CCPC is available from the NAAG website. (Please note that this list has been compiled for the use of law enforcement and prosecutors, and that many of the contacts on the CCPC list are not authorized to respond to general questions of law from the public or to provide legal advice on specific issues and cases. Members of the public seeking to report a crime, or seeking assistance relating to the investigation or prosecution of a computer crime, may contact the police department within the county, state, or other jurisdiction where the criminal activity is occurring, or the FBI.)

To determine some of the federal investigative law enforcement agencies that may be appropriate for reporting certain kinds of crime, please refer to the following table:



Type of Crime Appropriate federal investigative law enforcement agencies
Computer intrusion (i.e. hacking) FBI local office; NIPC (202-323-3205); U.S. Secret Service local office
Password trafficking FBI local office; NIPC (202-323-3205); U.S. Secret Service local office
Copyright (software, movie, sound recording) piracy FBI local office; if imported, U.S. Customs Service local office (800-BE-ALERT, or 800-232-2538)
Theft of trade secrets FBI local office
Trademark counterfeiting FBI local office; if imported, U.S. Customs Service local office (800-BE-ALERT, or 800-232-2538)
Counterfeiting of currency U.S. Secret Service local office; FBI local office
Child Pornography or Exploitation FBI local office; if imported, U.S. Customs Service local office (800-BE-ALERT, or 800-232-2538)
Child Exploitation and Internet Fraud matters that have a mail nexus U.S. Postal Inspection local office
Internet fraud The Internet Fraud Complaint Center; FBI local office; U.S. Secret Service local office; Federal Trade Commission; if securities fraud, Securities and Exchange Commission
Internet harassment FBI local office
Internet bomb threats FBI local office; ATF local office
Trafficking in explosive or incindiary devices or firearms over the Internet FBI local office; ATF local office

The Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC)

The IFCC is a partnership between the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the National White Collar Crime Center (NW3C). This Web site provides a mechanism for victims of Internet fraud to report on-line fraud to the appropriate law enforcement and regulatory authorities.

The Internet Fraud Complaint Center
Other Government Initiatives to Combat Cybercrime

NAAG's Computer Crime Point-of-Contact List
The Critical Infrastructure Assurance Office (CIAO)
The National White Collar Crime Center (NWCCC)
The President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection (PCCIP)
National Aeronautics and Space Adminstration (NASA)

[JohnFiorentino]

TIMELINE (Outline) with Comments

IE 20:31:12

MF 20:31:36

I will leave the exact splashdown calculations to those who are more adept at it than I am. I would postulate however, splashdown at approx. 20:31:45--20:31:47

What we DO know from the debris field. Explosion/Impact at Row 18 blows seats, luggage & passengers from Rows 17, 18 & vicinity into the Ocean. Fuselage severed at Row 18. Earliest ejecta: (1) Forward wing spar CW-504 nose tire and A/C unit. (2) Forward cabin with cockpit, forward cargo bins, additional bodies. (3) Wing tanks explode at approx. 20:31:36. (4) Bodies from rear cabin, luggage, rear cargo bins. Wings, engines, FDR, CVR and main fuselage. (5) Large portions of CWT approx 2.5 miles from IE.

The location of the bulk of the CWT two and a half miles from the first row 17 passenger's bodies leads to the inevitable conclusion that the explosion of the center wing tank was SECONDARY to the first event that brought the plane down. The center wing tank MUST have exploded some time after the initial event, otherwise the rear fuselage and wings would NOT still have been in one piece.

While the explosion of the center fuel tank is the probable cause of the MF, it is NOT likely the cause of the intial breakup of the aircraft, which blasted the row 17 passengers out.

[FormerLurker]

While the explosion of the center fuel tank is the probable cause of the MF, it is NOT likely the cause of the intial breakup of the aircraft, which blasted the row 17 passengers out.

I'd say the CWT explosion is the probable cause of the FIRST fireball. The MF (Massive Fireball) was more probably the result of the left wing separating from the aircraft. That would also be known as the SECOND fireball.

[FormerLurker]

Not not mention the fact that we both agree that something occurred PRIOR to the CWT explosion.

[FormerLurker]

I will leave the exact splashdown calculations to those who are more adept at it than I am. I would postulate however, splashdown at approx. 20:31:45--20:31:47

As much as I agree with you on a lot of things, Islip had the main body of the aircraft on radar up to 20:31:48:94.

[Swordmaker]

Let's see if we can construct Asmodeus' oft demanded timeline that our math seems to indicate occurred rather than his wacked out theory.

20:31:00 - Plane flying normally, altitude 13,400 ft., climbing at 33 ft/sec.

21:30:04 - Possible ground-to-air missile launch. Rate of climb accelerates to Mach 2.1.

21:30:07 - Mike Wire notices flare like object rising over house and arcing to left. in the next 8 seconds many more people notice streak, firework, etc.

21:30:10 - Major Fred Meyer sees "meteor like" object flash acorss his field of view.

20:31:12 - ~13,800 ft. - 0 sec. Last transponder return, everything normal, Aircraft climbing at 33 ft./second.

20:31:13 - ~13,840 ft. ~1 sec. Missile strikes TWA800 on left side at approximately seat row 16-17 transects the passenger cabin spewing partially burned solid rocket fuel (and leaving a red residue on seats in this area), taking out passengers and seats in rows 17-18 and exits aircraft through right side. VDR ends in loud, strange sound. Bright white Ordnance type explosion occurs just after missile exits thin walled cabin. Blast places massive overpressure on nose of aircraft and opens wide gap in side of aircraft. Parts of missile continue on momentum at speed approaching MACH 2 at a vector 190 degrees from north, ejecta from aircraft including seats, passengers, luggage to eventually land in "crosswind blast debris" field. The blast imparts a slightly more eastward vector for the ejecta which combined with the ejecta's already present eastward momentum results in the ejecta coming to rest about 175 degrees from the point of ejection.

20:31:14 - ~13,880 ft. ~2 sec. 400+ MPH winds acting on the gaping holes in aircraft fuselage causes the "unzip" of the aluminum skin of the nose. Windforce bends the nose up and breaks the "keel" of the fuselage. Signals to control surfaces and engines cease when wires are broken and engines revert to idle. Drag is no longer being counteracted by the thrust of the engines. The plane slows drastically.

20:31:15 - ~13, 900 ft - ~3 sec. Drag pulls the nose up and away from the rest of the fuselage and breaks loose on the right first and falls away to the left where it is still partially attached, twisting the aircraft toward the left and starts to fall pulling the left wing down, changing the vector of lift imparting a strong leftward force on the aircraft. Unbalanced drag toward the left is enormous. This accounts for the sudden leftward change in aircraft vector.

20:31:16:49 - ~13,890 ft - 4.49 sec. First post IE radar return. - The nose swings under and to the right and breaks completely loose and continues on a momentum driven ballistic fall slightly to the right (about 3 degrees) of the original aircraft vector. The noseless aircraft losing both the balance necessary for proper flight AND the thrust of the engines overcoming drag, pitches rapidly up and stalls. it may climb a very small amount during the pitch up before stall.

20:31:17 - ~13,860 ft. - ~5 sec. Gravity's inexorable pull starts the plane on its final trajectory. Drag is slowing the forward velocity and the uncontrolled aircraft is on either a ballistic fall or a somewhat aerodynamic fall.

20:31:21:13 - ~13,500 ft. - 9.13 sec. Second post IE radar return. - Uncontrolled plane pitches and yaws, lift occasionally pulls the plane in different vectors... this time a strong rightward vector. Drag continues to rip and rend the airframe just in front of the wing.

20:31:25:72 - ~12,300 ft. - 13.72 sec. Third post IE radar return. - More gyrations... now vectored back to the right.

20:31:30:37 - ~10,900 ft. - 18.37 sec. Fourth post IE radar return. - Falling steeply now. Much of the forward momentum is gone due to drag. Structural damage is weakening the Center Wing Tank's integrity and wings are no longer as strongly attached to the remaining fuselage.

20:31:32:?? - ~10,050 ft. - ~20 sec. Terminal velocity achieved of ~450 ft./second.

20:31:34:97 - ~9,100 ft. - 22.97 sec. Fifth post IE radar return. Stress is taking its toll on the wingroots. The Center Wing Tank structural members are buckling under the whipping of the plane rolling and pitching. Fuel is now leaking into the area around the Wing roots from the full wing tanks.

20:31:36:?? - ~8,500 ft. - ~24 sec. The aircraft takes a VERY sharp turn to the right (South) and one of the wing's fails, breaking away from the fuselage. The aircraft with only one wing starts to spin rapidly, spewing jet fuel and agitating it into the atmosphere, mixing it with air.

20:31:39:64 - ~7,000 ft. - 27.64 sec. Sixth post IE radar return. - Center Wint Tank explodes from spark caused by MECHANICAL breaking of metal. Volatile air-fuel mix surrounding aircraft ignited into Massive Fireball, Hot fireball begins to RISE, while burning plane falls through bottom of Fireball still spewing liquid fuel which ignites on exit from wingtanks.

8:31:43 - Elmer's "Streak of light" crippled plane appears.

20:31:44:29 - ~4,900 ft. - 32.29 sec. Seventh post IE radar return. - Still falling at 450 ft. per second.

20:31:47 - ~3,680 ft - End of streak - Elmer Asmodeus's mythical "Eyewitness Myth" Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.

20:31:48:94 - ~2,800 ft. - 36.94 sec Eighth post IE radar return. - Shortly after the Flight TWA800 falls below the radar horizon and no further radar returns are received.

20:31:55 - ~43 splashdown.

Total Elapsed time from Initiating Event (the missile strike) = ~43 seconds. Plus or minus 2 seconds.

Do you think that is detailed enough for AsmoElmer?

[JohnFiorentino]

I am most interested, as I stated in splashdown time estimates by others, better equipped to determine that than I am.

Comments are appreciated.

[backhoe]

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... Into the Buzzsaw Leading Journalists Expose the Myth of a Free Press Edited
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