Posted on 08/04/2002 7:13:07 PM PDT by bradactor
To me that was an excellent demonstration of divine jusrice acting in concert with human action.
Who caused you to be in your most dire need in the first place?
We excuse a cat who torments his prey before he kills it because we understand that the cat is merely practicing his eye-paw coordination, his means of survival.
What's God's excuse for tormenting those he allegedly created and will eventually kill?
If God created everything, then he created evil and is RESPONSIBLE for its occurance.
If a young kid finds his daddy's gun collection and ends up blowing his sister's brains out, we blame the parents. Yet when God's collecton of evil harms one of us or our loved ones -- who blames God? Why the double standard?
The reason the movie theme couldn't deal with the fact that God also was the creator of the harm that befalls man is because it would turn too many people off the concept of God. There are just some contradictions in religious belief that CANNOT honestly be dealt with because the conclusions we'd draw from them would put God in, shall we say, a very distasteful light.
Yeah, and...? So what?
Calvinists regard all of Creation as being God's property, and therefore entirely subject to His disposition, purely at His own discretion. We've always believed that.
That which is your Property is yours to dispose of as you see fit, isn't it?
Calvinism slices through the Gordian Knot of Theodicy as easily as the proverbial hot knife through butter -- and in doing so, gives the lie to your claim that "no religion deals with this... etc".
It would be more accurate for you to say, "No other religion deals with this... etc." But of course, that's exactly my point.
Or you could just admit that you don't know everything. You are coming to conclusions based on incomplete data.
A key point in most faiths is that God is able to overcome the pain and suffering in our lives, just as the pain of childbirth vanishes into the joy of a new baby.
If God is all powerful and the ultimate creator, it doesn't matter what any of us think anyhow. It is amusing, however, to consider the PR value of your brand of religion in which it is admitted that God tortures his creations for his own weird pleasures merely on the basis that he "can get away with it."
Another thing I like about Calvanistic Unconditional Election is that even I, an atheist, might be elected. Heck, I can go on a murder spree, torture people to death, rape and pillage. But since I am unconditionally elected, up to heaven I go. What a deal!
Still, no, Calvanism doesn't deal with the contradiction of God as both protector from evil and creator of evil -- other than to say, as you said -- he's some sort of all powerful creep.
So, now you are going to dictate to your neighbor just how he ought to tend his garden?
If he wants to cultivate the tulips, and mulch the lilacs, you're going to lecture him on how "wasteful" it is for him to mulch the lilacs instead of cultivating them too?
Tsk, tsk. What a Property-disrespecting blue-nosed busybody. Are you sure you're not secretly Communistic, underneath that Libertarian facade?
Property is property.
Another thing I like about Calvanistic Unconditional Election is that even I, an atheist, might be elected. Heck, I can go on a murder spree, torture people to death, rape and pillage. But since I am unconditionally elected, up to heaven I go. What a deal!
On the contrary. You will only go to Heaven if you believe and confess Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, and is reigning Lord. Of course, if you are not among the Elect, you'll not ever Believe or Confess this obvious fact of History. You could stand in the Empty Tomb today, and still be intellectually putting your hands over your ears and closing your eyes, "Not gonna see it, not gonna see it!!" Because, unless you are among the Elect, you will not be able to comprehend Objective Reality.
Still, no, Calvanism doesn't deal with the contradiction of God as both protector from evil and creator of evil -- other than to say, as you said -- he's some sort of all powerful creep.
In other words, Calvinism does offer a complete resolution of all question of Theodicy (by acknowledging God's total and absolute Sovereignty over all aspects of the issue), and you just don't much like that fact, because it denies you one of your favorite criticisms of Religion.
It's as I said: It would be more accurate for you to say, "No other religion deals with this... etc." But of course, that's exactly my point.
Actually I said "No religion satisfactorily deals with this contradiction." Calvanism's holding that God is a profoundly evil and flawed "creator" is hardly what I would consider a "satisfactory" handling of the question of the contradiction of his "protecting us" from his own evils.
Where's the contradiction?
It's all His Property, to dispose of as He sees fit. He may bring about trials and tribulations one day, and bring peace and contentedment the next -- because it's all His Property, to dispose of as He sees fit. He can cultivate the tulips and mulch the lilacs, or vice versa -- because it's all His Property, to dispose of as He sees fit.
Where's the contradiction? You're complaining that Calvinism does not "resolve" a "contradiction" of Theodicy which does not even arise in Calvinism in the first place.
Pretending that Calvinism has to "resolve" the same contradiction of Theodicy which you are able to raise as a criticism against other religions is like claiming that a Private Property owner has to resolve the same irreconcilable contradictions of disparate-usage claims as a Public Park. But that ain't the case; on Private Property, the Owner does not have to answer to the disparate usage claims of any other Party -- he may do as he likes. So pretending that the "tragedy of the commons" (or it's theological equivalent, the Theodicy contradiction) applies here is just intellectual dishonesty. There's no "contradiction" to "resolve", the Owner has Absolute Right over his own Property.
Where's the contradiction?
Who caused you to be in your most dire need in the first place?
I do not blame God for any dire circumstances that befall me. Usually, whenever I get into trouble, it is because of actions I have committed based upon decisions that I have made.
God's greatest gift to mankind is free will. We have the choice of doing good or evil. Just like the traffic light. If it is red, we have two options. The first option - stop. The second option - run the light. What happens if we do the first option. Most likely nothing. We remain where we are as traffic procedes. If we choose the second option we may or may not be harmed but if we are harmed it was because of our choice. We knowingly choose to commit an act that we know may cause us harm.
God states it very plainly. Choose his laws and his way and have eternal life. Of do not choose him and have damnation. He is not causing us to do anything except have a choice.
If a young kid finds his daddy's gun collection and ends up blowing his sister's brains out, we blame the parents. Yet when God's collecton of evil harms one of us or our loved ones -- who blames God? Why the double standard?
What do you consider is God's collection of evil? I believe you use a bad analogy. First of all, a gun is an inanimate object - it is neither good or evil. It is a tool. As a tool, it can be used for eitehr good or evil, depending upon who weilds the tool. The scenario you describe above is neither good nor evil, it is an accident that occurred because the person in charge did not make the right decisions to ensure the safety of his children. But now you have me because if we are God's children, then He is making decisions that are harmful to us. But not so. There is a major difference between our children and us. We are adults who are given free will and have been given the knowledge to keep us from harm. It is what we choose to do that causes us to have a fruitful life or a bad life.
When it comes right down to it, you want everything explained to you. But it cannot. Sometimes, you have to rely on faith. Relying on faith can be as simple as trusting your gin rummy partner to lay down the right card to trusting in God that if you do keep his commandments than you will not burn. It has been said that man has not tried Christianity and found it wanting, but man has tried Christianity and found it too difficult. Why is it so difficult for you to have faith in an higher being that wants nothing but good for us?
Was God (ultimately) responsible for the dire circumstances which befell Job? Could Satan so much as lay a finger on Job without God's permission?
God is absolutely Sovereign, and He alone determines all that comes to pass. Jlogajan is right in this much, at least -- if you do not acknowledge God's absolute Sovereignty, your religion is going to be hopelessly mauled by contradictions of Theodicy.
Calvinism, OTOH, puts Theodicy down for the ten-count in the first round, without taking a single hit.
you and I are both atheists. I just believe in one less god that you do. When you figure out why you don't believe in any of the other gods of this age, you'll come to understand why I don't believe in yours.
Really?
Ok then... Habeas Corpus.
You, as well as everyone else, have already been given verifiable information on the existence of a Higher, Spiritual Power. It is just that many people don't pay close enough attention to fully comprehend the signs. It took me 30 years to become Aware. The signs are the coincidences that happen every single day in your life. Carl Jung wrote at length about them back in the early 1900's and coined the term meaningful coincidences and synchronicity. Pay very close attention to the coincidences that happen in your life. Once you start paying attention, you will eventually come to the realization that there is, without a doubt, a Higher Power or Greater Reality at work behind the scenes, guiding you along in your life. Also, learn about Karma. Make every thought and action in your life derive from these keywords: Love, patience, understanding, compassion, caring and positivity.
Those who would like to know more should read these two former #1 NY Times bestseller books: the celestine prophecies and the seat of the soul. Read more about Carl Jung. See these movies: signs, mothman prophecies and vanilla sky. Also the Matrix (derived from Jung's "collective unconcious").
But do one thing before all of this. The first line in Vanilla Sky: "Open your Eyes."
Best wishes to all.
EyesWideOpen in Bucks County, PA.
Was it the scene where the family is preparing to eat dinner and the question of preayer comes up? There was an unruly group of negroes behind me that thought the scene was hilarious. BTW I can refer to them as unruly negroes because I have a ghetto pass (American of African descent).
I noticed on your home page that you are 17 (or maybe 18 now) and are currently living in England, but that you are from Louisiana.
I'm curious whether you renounced your faith before or after you moved to England and/or before or after you got engaged?
I'm also curious how old you were when you made a profession of faith, if you did?
If you don't wish to answer my questions, then please just ignore this post. Thanks!
Your sword is wielded with great skill. Thanks.
Why do you continue to denigrate and blaspheme against God? Your comments concerning God are offensive to me.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.