Facts and Myths - an examination of McPherson's "Causes of the Civil War" essay

myself

[Colt .45]

Great post! Good to see some more of the truth rising to the top of this bucket of "Civil War History" crap that Yankees have been ramming at us for years.

MEGA-BUMP!

[Drennan Whyte]

If you are interested in what the southerners themselves said I encourage you to look into a greater sample on the subject.

"Mississippi is firmly convinced that there is but one alternative:

This new union with Lincoln Black Republicans and free negroes, without slavery, or, slavery under our old constitutional bond of union, without Lincoln Black Republicans, or free negroes either, to molest us.

If we take the former, then submission to negro equality is our fate. if the latter, then secession is inevitable --- each State for itself and by itself, but with a view to the immediate formation of a Southern Confederacy, under our present Constitution, by such of the slave-holding States as shall agree in their conventions to unite with us." - William L. Harris, December 17, 1860

Mr. Harris was appointed a comissioner to the State of Georgia by Mississippi Governor John J. Pettus. In this capacity he delivered an address to the Georgia General Assembly on the need and reasons for secession.

[dtel]

It is very easy, convenient and dishonest to apply our idea of race relations on our forefathers.
They were raised in a different time with different values.
Most of the posters on this forum would not have lived to the age of 16 in either the north or south because of their outspoken opinions and wise mouths.
Plugged dead. Myself probably included.
The northerns cared no more for the negro than the southron they were both scared of turning them loose in society, plain and simple.
Were their fears unfounded, I do not know.
I have no problem with the black man, the white man or the brown man, as long as they are honest and not full of sh*t.

[Drennan Whyte]

GOPCapitalist suggested we look to the words of the leaders of the time for the reasons why they seceded. I'm doing just that.

"What was the reason that induced Georgia to take the step of secession? This reason may be summed up in one single proposition. It was a conviction, a deep conviction on the part of Georgia, that a separation from the North-was the only thing that could prevent the abolition of her slavery. This conviction, sir, was the main cause. It is true, sir, that the effect of this conviction was strengthened by a further conviction that such a separation would be the best remedy for the fugitive slave evil, and also the best, if not the only remedy, for the territorial evil. But, doubtless, if it had not been for the first conviction this step would never have been taken. It therefore becomes important to inquire whether this conviction was well founded." - Henry Benning, February 18, 1861

Mr. Benning was appointed secession commissioner by the governor of Georgia. This quote is from his address to the Virginia secession convention

[dtel]

It looks like the moderator took care of business, bump.
I would also like to add to my previous post, the two independent unions would have been one in most conflicts.
The old, I can talk bad about my brother, but you can't.

To all:

I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it.

[Drennan Whyte]

I would also like to add to my previous post, the two independent unions would have been one in most conflicts.

Brothers notwithstanding, when the Great Britain and the colonies separated they fought one more war, nearly fought several others, and didn't fight on the same side for over 130 years.

[dtel]

So what is the point?
They were an ocean away and we really, really hated them.
Do you hate all southrons?
There would have been conflicts and there might still be conflicts. But it's not like we aren't killing more folks per capita than any other nation anyway.
While it is hip and cool to bash the southern accent and way of life, does anyone really think the northern, Rosie-type accent sounds any more intelligent?
You'se guys can kiss my *ss.

[Drennan Whyte]

They were an ocean away and we really, really hated them.

Following a Southern military victory don't you think that we would have really, really hated each other? Don't you think that one conflict would have followed another? Don't you think that mistrust and bad feelings couldn't have continued to this day? And since I haven't said a thing about southern accents or southern intelligence you don't mind if I decline your offer to kiss your ass or any other part?

[dtel]

Who said the south even had to win?
I am just trrying to point out if the nations had gone their seperate ways, that the dynamics of North and South America would have changed dramatically. Probably for the better.
That nasty little illegal immigration thing would look a lot different now.
I didn't mean to slander you as a Yank do-gooder, but if you intend to paint all southrens as racist pigs,
you'se guys can kiss my arse.

[Democratic_Machiavelli]

Hmmm. Interesting. I'll look the subject over in the next few days...see what I can find.

(Don't have time right now to look at all I wrote. I apologize in advance for sounding like an idiot.) As for my comment, I meant that, from what I understand, the South felt that, to paraphrase an example from the movie "Gettysburg" (forgive me), the nation was like a big gentleman's club. If a state didn't like the rules, they could leave. It's a reminder of the questions that arose around the time the Constitution was being written. No northern state, as far as I know, ever talked about secession as a possibility (though I know of at least one border state that seriously tried to secede but was stopped by federal troops).

I think I'll join the discussion again after I've checked out some of the stuff that's already been talked about. Thanks to everyone for the info.

[NovemberCharlie]

No northern state, as far as I know, ever talked about secession as a possibility...

Massachusetts. There was talk of the Northeast seceding because of their opposition to the War of 1812.

[NovemberCharlie]

You mentioned the almost-XIIIth Amendment. Do you happen to know what the Southern reaction to it was?

[Old Professer]

All I know is the north raped, pillaged and burned the deep south as the war was ending in spite or just plain meanness.

I am not from the south.

[dtel]

...The plantation prospered. In 1858 the Smith County assessment for the property was $29,700. The value placed on 720 acres of land was $3,100; other personal property included 40 negroes, value $24,000; 11 horses, value $1,200; 60 cattle, value $360; and sundries valued at $470. The year that Richard B. Hubbard Sr. died (1864), the Hubbard Plantation was valued at $36,700, including 44 negroes to do the work, horses, cattle and miscellaneous property of $4,140- a tremendously rich "spread" of the era...

From
Hubbard and Hide-A-Way
a history
June T. Parker, 1976.

For discussion only.

A slave was worth ten times the amount of a cow.
You know I try, but I can't put my mind totally in their time. but I am thinking if a slave was worth ten times as much as a cow and six times as much as a horse, the asset was not allowed to waste away.

[GOPcapitalist]

You mentioned the almost-XIIIth Amendment. Do you happen to know what the Southern reaction to it was?

Seven states had already left the union by the time it passed. It wasn't enough to stop secession or bring any southern states back in. All the border state congressmen, the northern democrats, and several of the northern republicans supported it on the vote. Maryland, Ohio, and Illinois ratified it and West Viriginia voted to support it with their lincoln-backed "legislature in exile."

[Rebelo3]

"According to Article I of the constitution, the feds are required to put down rebellions"

There was no rebellion. The Southern States seceded from the Union, and Lincoln had no authority to rule that they could not. Slavery was safe in the Union as evidenced by the fact that there were UNION SLAVE STATES, including Delaware which kept slavery to the end. They voted against the 13th Admenment, saying that slavery was a States' Rights issue.

[dtel]

This Smith county is in the EVIL (shudder) State of Texas.

"Texas Governor Richard B. Hubbard Jr., 1876-1879, was elected Lt. Governor in 1873 and succeeded to the governorship when Governor Richard Coke resigned to become Texas Senator. His accomplishments as Governor included reducing public debt, fighting land fraud, promoting educational reforms and restoring public control of the prison systems. Although at odds with politicians, he was popular with the Peoiple of Texas."

A little more background info, from the same source.

[muleboy]

dtel's question is a good one, and your answer is as well.

The one thing that is closest to certainty is that an imperialist exercise of power from North America across an ocean would have been delayed for decades. (the Gulf doesn't count).

This "fact" would have made the history of the 20th century vastly different, and quite probably better.

[stainlessbanner]

If you don't secede at first, remember try again!

• 1798 Virginia and Kentucky Resolves. Said states could nullify national law if they violated individual state rights!
• 1804 Massachusetts plotted to secede and tried to get New York to withdraw from the union and establish a "Northern Confederacy".
• 1807 Embargo Act New Jersey was going to secede due prohibition of foreign trade
• 1814, delegates from several New England states threatened to secede over President James Madison's war policies against England.
• 1844, the Massachusetts Legislature threatened secession when Congress started debating whether to admit Texas into the Union.

[TexConfederate1861]

Absolutely:

But forget trying to convince the Yankeecrats....we have all been knocking but...NOBODY'S HOME!