Why do Bush/Ashcroft continue anti-gun policies?

Keep and Bear Arms ^ | 28 August 2002 | Harry Schneider

[AdamSelene235]

Felons shouldn't have guns. Period.

Roughly 12% of Americans are convicted Felons. Less than half of them were incarcerated for their crimes. FYI, the classic common law definition of Felony (and the one Scalia uses) is a serious crime punishable by death.

I have a friend who is a convicted felon because his dog jumped the fence and chased a deer while he was on vacation.

[jwalsh07]

Whats my position Jesse as regards the RTKABA and felons?

[jwalsh07]

Suppose felons were to be prohibited, as part of their sentence, from criticizing the government, or from attending Catholic Mass. Would that be constitutionally kosher in your view? And is the second amendment any less sacrosanct than the first?

It depends. If the Catholic Priests are the rapists in the news I'd certainly prohibit them from the Catholic Church.

But as a rule, no I wouldn't prohibit them from doing those things nor would I prohibit them from voting, that is as long as they are earning their own way. I believe in redemption.

However, felons who have committed violent crimes against innocent citizens can and should have their RTKABA abridged. Though I believe in redemption, I don't believe in turning the other cheek so I can get sucker punched again.

Now a couple for you.

Whats the recidivsm rate for violent criminals?

What rights can be abridged for citizens who committ violent crimes against other citizens?

And who does the abridging, the felon or the state?

[Travis McGee]

However, felons who have committed violent crimes against innocent citizens can and should have their RTKABA abridged.

Fine, what about the vast majority who are NON violent felons, convicted of a paper crime 25 years ago?

[Jesse]

Whats my position Jesse as regards the RTKABA and felons?

I don't know. As I said, my response was to your assertion in this thread from the reply you posted and I referenced that Bush and Ashcroft support the individual right to keep and bear arms. I do not believe that they do. All I said was, if you think that Bush and Ashcroft really support the individual right to keep and bear arms, you are mistaken, that is, if you critically read their position and examine what they are doing, not what their sound bites are.

I also made reference to other people who asserted that all felons should not be allowed to possess firearms. I thought I made it clear that I was not talking about you in this regard when I said "The people who think..." I never claimed to read everything you have ever posted. If my assertion is wrong then by all means correct me.

[jwalsh07]

They should have the RTKABA.

I'm arguing with absolutists. Some seem to argue that life, liberty and property can be abridged but in no case can the RTKABA. I disagree. How about you?

[wardaddy]

I think all non-violent felons should have immediate restoration of RKBA after completion of punishment. Violent felons could have to request approval from a review board like the Marshall's service used to do for Federal Felons.

That's a compromise to me. Many Southern and Rocky Mountain states already restore RKBA to felons after completion of punishment. The Feds do not...as well as quite a few states. That overlapping jurisdiction can cost one an easy 5 spot even if they think they are safe in their state. Take Mississippi, say you are a state felon who's been clean for 20 years and you are driving down the Federally managed Natchez Trace with an unloaded .06 on your way home from deer camp. You are stopped speeding by a US Trace Ranger and he busts you for possession of a firearm by a felon under Fed jursidiction. 5 years min/man with no parole unless the US attorney has a heart and gives you a break. The judge has no choice unless he chooses to nullify....which is as rare as a virgin in a cathouse. It's confusing, unfair, and very serious.

[nopardons]

It's " broken " ; not " broke ". Since you can't even write your mother tongue, it isn't surprising that you don't understand politcs, government, nor even reality, either.

" KING " ? I've never said that's what he is , nor implied it. That you can even consider using that term, also proves how very little you are capable of any understanding anout anything at all. Your posts are poorly worded rehashings of of other people's rants. You " feel "; you don't THINK ! That means that you are easily persuaded by any glib tongue and therefore, not worthy to even comment ; let alone receive a cogent, rational reply.

[harpseal]

I own a number of firearms and I voted for GWB and I supported his run against the Goron. I should be able to purchase any standard infantry arm used by the US armed forces. I should be able to carry openly or concealed anywhere in the USA. I should not have to fill out any form or pay any fee to exercise an inherent right that is guaranteed by the Bill of Rights.

My complaint with GWB is not that different from the many complaints I have had with many politicians over the last 40 years. I want to see the US Constitution enforced. I want to see GWB play hardball with the US Senate and appoint judges who will enforce the Constitution as written. In short my big complaint with GWB is he is not living up to his potential.

Stay well - stay safe - Stay armed - yorktown

[packrat01]

Is YOUR church on the ATF-Approved list? I don't think mine is, even though there has only been one visitor (that we know of) that was an ATF Agent.

[inquest]

Notwithstanding the fact that you still haven't answered my question about whether the situation I described would be constitutional, not just OK by you, I'll take up your questions.

Whats the recidivsm rate for violent criminals?

I have no idea. But if you're implying that it's too high, then the remedy is to put them in jail longer, or flog them, or execute them, or whatever (oh, and not to mention promote widespread gun ownership. That's usually pretty effective at stopping recividism dead in its tracks).

What rights can be abridged for citizens who committ violent crimes against other citizens?

Once they're in jail, they're in a domain completely separate from society, and completely subject to the arbitrary rule of the jail warden (as limited by applicable statutory law). That's the nature of prison. To treat them like jailbirds when they're back in society at large is to effectively extend the prison walls around all of society, something that freedom-loving people should be adamantly opposed to. It's simply a matter of closing a loophole that would otherwise be big enough to engulf the entire Constitution.

And who does the abridging, the felon or the state?

Philosophically, the felon. Legally, the state.

[TLI]

Is YOUR church on the ATF-Approved list?

I highly doubt that it is, as it is attended by many veterans..

[Shooter 2.5]

"I remember from history that it was often JEWISH POLICEMEN who led the doomed Jews to the death trains in occupied European ghettos. They wanted to kep their jobs, they wanted to "keep order", and they wanted to avoind the train ride themselves. They just got put on the trains last, the filth.

See if you can find a book called "Am I a Murderer?: Testament of a Jewish Ghetto Policeman" by Calel Perechondnik. It's a fascinating autobiography on one Jew's attempts to survive a slaughter.

[packrat01]

Good thing we (still) have the 1st Amendment to protect us from them... < sarcasm >

[Travis McGee]

That would be a start. Why do you think at all levels govt is striving to lower the bar for taking RKBA away, spending untold manhours poring through decades old paper file misdemeanor records for nonviolent "crimes" which "could have" been punishable by a year and a day in jail, but which were plead out to no fine and no time? Peeing in the alley behind a bar at age 21 in college, that type of "crime"?

[Travis McGee]

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for it.

I think that millions of "good Americans" would just shut up and keep their job on the "Munich-Aushwitz Rail Road", and most cops would go on house to house confiscation raids.

[jwh_Denver]

Well I can see I've popped your cork enough. And I used 1 word that was wrong? Petty petty you, amoung other things.

[jwh_Denver]

Uh oh. I misspelled a word. Rocket flames back at me! Pull out the stops now!

[Cato]

First we get more pro-gun people in Congress and the Senate

We are running out of time to do that. Next suggestion.

BTW, your way is what got us here. You HOPED that critter would vote your way but he didn't. Remember the term INCREMENTALISM. It would do you good to remember it and how it has worked to get us to this point.

We might try filing lawsuits against any and all Congresscritters and the Senate Snakes who pass these laws. Put in front of a friendly judge we could get faster repsonse time than from the aformentioned animals.

Working with them critters reminds me of BEGGING.

"Please give us our God-given rights back. Pretty Please with sugar on it."

LOL,
CATO

[Shooter 2.5]

BTW, your way is what got us here.

Oh, gee. In that case, vote for anti-gun politicians and hope they're lying. < extreme sarcasm >