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The Bible vs. The Quran
Islam Review.com ^ | 08-30-02 | Abdullah Al Araby

Posted on 08/31/2002 5:30:20 AM PDT by vance

The Bible vs. The Quran

By Abdullah Al Araby

The Quran is the Muslims' Holy Book, the same as is the Bible to Christians, Muslims regard the Quran as the infallible utterance of the Almighty. The word "Quran" means recitation. The name was applied by Mohammed to each individual portion of the Book, but was later used for the whole Book.

Mohammed proclaimed the Quran as the miracle that proved his prophethood. There has been, however, much debate among intellectual Muslims on the issue of the miracle of the Quran. Some Arabic scholars like az-Zamakhshari noted more than one hundred grammatical errors in the Quran.

The Quran is written in Arabic poetic prose. It is divided into 114 Surahs or chapters, and contains the religious, social, civil, commercial, military, and legal code of Islam. It also contains stories which occur in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures and Apocrypha.

The Quran, however, contradicts the Bible in many of the details of these stories, including some of the names of the people involved. When faced by these contradictions, Muslims justify them by claiming that the Bible must have been altered. Yet in no place in the Quran do we find the Omniscient (knowing everything) Allah pointing out these altered passages of the Bible, or revealing the correct ones. Such a claim can also be disputed by historical evidence, as well as by the Quran itself, which approved of the Bible, and said so repeatedly:

There is enough evidence to support the claim that the Quran may have been tampered with. Nobody knows where the original Quran is. The Quran that we have in our hands now is called the Uthman's Quran, which was collected long after Mohammed's death. Parts of the original Quran must have been lost, after many of the reciters of the Quran died or were killed in battle. Uthman, the third Caliph (successor of Mohammed) gathered what was left of the Quran, arranged it by length of Surahs rather than chronologically, then burned all other existing copies.

The Bible, on the other hand, has stood the test of time. To suggest that the Bible has been altered is against both reason and historic findings.

Neither Christians nor Jews can reasonably be accused of altering their Scriptures. One reason is that they didn't have anything to gain from doing so, and if they did, they wouldn't willingly spill their blood defending it. In the book of Revelation God puts a severe punishment on those who add to or take away, any part of God's Word. (See Revelation 22:18 & 19)

The Jews were also commanded not to commit such a terrible act. (See Deuteronomy 4:2)

Furthermore, Christians and Jews did not alter their Scriptures based on historic evidence. Many manuscripts of early copies of the Bible were discovered through the years, and were found to match the text we have now. Here are some of these famous manuscript:

The Sinaitic - It was written in the middle of the fourth century, about 270 years before Islam. It contains the whole of the New Testament and a large part of the Old Testament. It is now kept in the British Museum

The Alexandrian - It was written in the early fifth century, more than 200 years before Islam. It contains the whole Bible, except a few pages that have been lost. It is also kept in the British Museum.

The Vatican - It was written in the early fourth century, about 300 years before Islam. It contains the whole Bible. It is now kept in the Vatican Library at Rome.

These and other manuscripts such as Codex Ephraemi and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the thousands of other copies or part of copies of the early Bibles prove beyond doubt that the Bible could not possibly be altered or corrupted.

CAN GOD CONTRADICT HIMSELF?

Many stories of the Bible that have been recorded in the Quran were misquoted and are contradictory to the Bible. Here are a few: examples:

The story of Cain and Abel

After Cain killed his brother Abel, The Quran says that "Allah sent a raven who scratched the ground to show him how to hide the shame of his brother." Surah 5:31. This is not mentioned in the Bible.

The story of Noah and the flood

The Quran in Surah 11:42 & 43 says that one of the sons of Noah refused to go into the Ark and was drowned in the flood, while the Bible says that all three sons of Noah went into the Ark with him and were saved from the flood (Genesis 7:7).

In Surah 11:44 the Quran says that the Ark came to rest on top of mount Judi, While the Bible says that it was Mount Ararat (Genesis 8:4).

The Story of Abraham

Abraham's father, according to the Quran, is Azar (Surah 6:74), while the Bible says that his name was Terah (Genesis 11:26).

The Quran says Abraham had two sons, the Bible says they were eight.

The Quran says some of Abraham's descendants lived in the valley of Mecca (Surah 14:37),while the Bible says they lived in Hebron (Genesis 13:18).

The Quran says that Abraham had two wives, in the Bible he had three.

The Quran says that he built the Kaaba (Surah 2:125-127). The Bible has no record of that.

The story of Moses

The Quran states that the one who adopted Moses was Pharaoh's wife (Surah 28:9), While the Bible says it was Pharaoh's daughter (Exodus 2:5)

The Quran states that Haman lived in Egypt during Moses' time (Surah 28:6), while the Bible says that Haman lived in Persia during King Ahasuerus time (Esther 3:1).

The story of Mary (the mother of Jesus)

The Quran states that her brother was Aaron (Surah 19:28), while the Bible says that Aaron lived 1300 years before Mary (Numbers 26:59).

That she gave birth to Jesus under a palm tree (Surah 19:23),while the Bible says it was in a stable (Luke 2:7).

That Jesus spoke and made miracles at the time he was a baby (Surah 19:24-26). The Bible has no record of that. That Zacharias could not speak for three nights (Surah 19:10), while the Bible says he could not speak until the child was born (or for about 9 months) Luke 1:20.

CAN GOD MAKE THESE ERRORS?

Muslims believe that the Quran is a direct utterance of Allah (God). Because God is infallible, one would expect the Quran to be infallible also. However, by examining the Quran, we are faced by many statements that go against the undisputed facts of science. It would be unacceptable if such errors were attributed to a learned human being, worse yet to attribute them to the Omniscient God. The list of the errors in the Quran is very long, and are discussed in full detail in other books. Here, we have a limited space to list only a few samples. Our goal is to question whether God can make such errors, whether God was in fact the author of the Quran.

Geographical Errors

The Earth is stationary

"He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs." Surah 31:10

The Sun sets in a spring

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." Surah 18:86

Historical Errors

Pharaoh built the tower of Babel in Egypt

"Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs! no god do I know for you but myself: therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!" Surah 28:38

Alexander the Great was a prophet

"They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain (Alexander the Great) Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story." Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends. One (such) way he followed, Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." Surah 18:83-88

Ethical Errors

Legalizing perjury

"God will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing." Surah 2:225

Legalizing murder

"O Apostle! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding." Surah 8:65

Legalizing deceit

"God will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth God make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful." Surah 5:89

Scientific Errors

A corps leaning on a staff for a year

"Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff: so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task)." Surah 34:14

A nap lasting three hundred and nine years

"So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more)" Surah 18:9-26

Legal Errors

Scourging the witness

"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-" Surah 24:4

God ordains taking spoils

"And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to God,- and to the Apostle, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in God and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For God hath power over all things." Surah 8:41

Since the Bible came first, and since there is every reason to believe that the Bible was kept uncorrupted, Muslim theologians have lots of explaining to do with regard to such contradictions and errors in their Book.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: islam; mohammed
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1 posted on 08/31/2002 5:30:20 AM PDT by vance
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To: vance
I would also recommend "Why I Am Not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq (currently in print and available through bookstores in the U.S.). Among other things, he reveals that there are no fewer than 14 different "readings" of the Koran, that all of the existing "schools" of thought originated in Persia, that all moderates and philosophers have been murdered for years, and (best of all) that the "uncreated word of G-d" as expressed in the Koran isn't even grammatically correct in many places, let alone a stellar example of Arabic literature.

What is troubling is not just that there are inconsistencies (i.e., in one Surah it says that drinking to excess is sinful...while another forbids drinking alcoholic beverages), but that there are really two voices: those portions which were written while Mohammed was still in Mecca are more moderate and conciliatory regarding Jews and Christians than those which were written in Medina, after he had gained military strength and broken his treaty with the Jewish tribes who resided in Mecca.

The extremists have all latched onto the most strident and war-like portions of this book, which justifies murder, deceit, slavery, etc.
2 posted on 08/31/2002 5:43:35 AM PDT by SaudiDuck
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To: vance
Why does the Koran need a million footnotes?
3 posted on 08/31/2002 5:44:18 AM PDT by alisasny
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To: vance
Every religion has its big-eyed True Beleivers, including the author of this childish diatribe.
4 posted on 08/31/2002 5:45:59 AM PDT by Seti 1
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To: vance
Oh, and I nearly forgot...that silly prophet labored under the delusion that Merriam, the sister of Moses, and Mary, the mother of Jesus, were one and the same person. Thus Jesus is Moses' cousin in their teaching...quite the feat, given the hundreds of years between the two figures.
5 posted on 08/31/2002 5:46:23 AM PDT by SaudiDuck
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To: vance
The Quran says Abraham had two sons, the Bible says they were eight.

If you have eight sons, you must also have two sons, right?

... Mr Logic

6 posted on 08/31/2002 5:47:23 AM PDT by wotan
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To: wotan
The Quran says Abraham had two sons, the Bible says they were eight.

Who was Abraham's 7th son? And who was the 7th son of Abraham's 7th son?

7 posted on 08/31/2002 5:53:51 AM PDT by Consort
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To: vance
The Bible, on the other hand, has stood the test of time. To suggest that the Bible has been altered is against both reason and historic findings.

Okay, this is where I stopped reading. This statement is absolutely false. Next contestant please.

8 posted on 08/31/2002 6:08:15 AM PDT by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
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To: Jimer
Johnny Rivers?
9 posted on 08/31/2002 6:12:05 AM PDT by joesnuffy
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To: Seti 1
In your future you will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, If you don't do so before you leave the earth it will be too late.
10 posted on 08/31/2002 6:18:40 AM PDT by marbren
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To: SaudiDuck
...the Koran isn't even grammatically correct in many places, let alone a stellar
example of Arabic literature.


Now there's a press shocker.
Especially after that recent report (even done by Arab scholars) revealed the very
small number of books published in the Arab world each year (compared to the tsunami of
books in the Western world).

Of course, there's plenty of dreck published in the West, but that's a whole other story.
11 posted on 08/31/2002 6:19:13 AM PDT by VOA
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To: SaudiDuck
The extremists have all latched onto the most strident and war-like portions of this book,
which justifies murder, deceit, slavery, etc.


I'll give them a break on this angle.
It's not the first or last time some yahoos have selectively latched onto
portions of a good book/philosophy/religion in order to "go for the gusto" and grab
anything they lust after.
12 posted on 08/31/2002 6:23:17 AM PDT by VOA
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To: vance
bump
13 posted on 08/31/2002 6:31:35 AM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: vance
In ancient times it was the common practice for folks throughout the Arab speaking world to send copies of their gods (usually as an idol) as well as their sacred scriptures to Mecca for both display and safe storage around the Kaaba.

Eventually Mohammad had all the idols burned.

To Moslems that is very important. To Westerners, and to more than one Turkish sultan, it was much more important to know that acient texts were buried in the earth, and in caves near Mecca.

Mohammad himself said he was in a cave in the area and reached down to pick up a text to read (allegedly at the command of an angel.)

Forget about the angel for a moment, we have Mohammad's own testimony that there were texts in a cave to read. Whether he or a close confederate read them, Mohammad recited the words to other people.

None of this is difficult to believe, and we do, in fact, have the testimony of hundreds of people concerning how Mohammad recited Holy Writ.

Jews and pre-Judaic Hebrews had followed the trade routes that run through Arabia for centuries. Abraham himself followed those routes. As far as I have learned anything about the matter it has always been the custom of the Jews to bury a worn-out Torah in the earth, the same as the Jews bury their dead in the earth.

The probability of having a Torah buried in and around Mecca is very good. The probability of having even more ancient Hebraic texts buried there is also very good, and we might even be able to find buried texts containing the disposition of property owned by various persons found in the Bible.

Mohammad said changes had been made in the texts attriuted to God. He could say that if and only if he had more than one copy, At the same time he seems to have never obtained a full copy of any of the Gospels or the Letters.

On the other hand, Mohammad probably had more and better access to ancient documents than anyone else in the world at that time since this was the worst part of the Dark Ages. No doubt he made mistakes. No doubt there was no one around to correct them!

14 posted on 08/31/2002 6:31:37 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: vance
I don't want to offend anybody and I speak only for myself but they're both just books written by people. The only versions most of us can read are translations of translations of translations. Maybe they were inspired maybe they weren't. There is wisdom and nonsense in both. To think that all one has to do or know in life is contained in one book is hopeful at best.

The Sermon on the Mount and the Ten Commandments are possibly the best the Bible has to offer, the detailed rules and practices laid down in Leviticus are just strange. The Koran is similarly detailed in it's rulings reminding one of the FASB rules for accounting.

Flame away if you feel threatened but it seems to me that there is more one has to do for spiritual development than read one book, IMHO.

15 posted on 08/31/2002 6:38:13 AM PDT by muir_redwoods
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To: muawiyah
Interesting theory, but I think Mohammed claimed to be illiterate (it was "divine inspiration" that allowed him to read the text) and even if he could read, I doubt he could read Hebrew.
16 posted on 08/31/2002 6:38:50 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: vance
The Bible vs. The Quran

Each requires faith, not reason, to be accepted by the respective believers. Arguing over which one is 'right' seems difficult.

17 posted on 08/31/2002 7:11:17 AM PDT by RJCogburn
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To: vance


I much prefer Quorn to the Quran.
18 posted on 08/31/2002 7:16:48 AM PDT by July 4th
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To: Seti 1
Are you a true believer in the idea that intelligent life exists around other stars? Compare our evidence for this to our evidence that Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

As easy as it is to believe other stars host aliens every bit of evidence we have so far supports the idea that we are alone (lets leave off extra-dimensional beings), . As hard as it is to believe Jesus is who he claimed he was, hundreds of eyewitnesses gave their lives rather than recant their testamony of the resurrection.\

It seems there is more actual evidence for the position of the Christian than for the position you espouse in your screen name. I urge you to study the most important question in life for the last 2,000 years....Who is Jesus?

19 posted on 08/31/2002 7:39:13 AM PDT by Ahban
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To: marbren
Get lost, you twit.
20 posted on 08/31/2002 9:01:45 AM PDT by Seti 1
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To: vance
Rev. 22:18-19 warns against adding or taking away from "the prophecy of this book" (that is, Revelation or the Apocalypse of John)--it doesn't refer to the Bible as a whole. This was written before the early Christians had agreed on the canon of the Scriptures.

Similarly, Deut. 4:2 has Moses telling the Israelites not to add to or take away from what he is telling them about the Lord's commandments--so his admonition applies at most to the five books of Moses, not to the entire Hebrew Bible.

Luke 2:7 doesn't actually say that Jesus was born in a stable--that is an inference from the mention of a manger.

21 posted on 08/31/2002 9:03:55 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Ahban
Your reply is off the mark. The Seti in my "screen name" was the name of an Egyptian pharoah and not a reference to extra you-know-whats. I had been reading Egyptian history just before I chose it and it was about the fourth try. I just figured no one else had chosen it.

We have no records of anyone who was an "eyewitness" to the Resurrection. Even the gospels were written a couple of generations later and repeated and recopied for several centuries before being put down in any form existing today.

Certainly many people believe in Christ but a great many more do not so if we are voting, you lose.
22 posted on 08/31/2002 9:17:35 AM PDT by Seti 1
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To: AmishDude
it was "divine inspiration" that allowed him to read the text

Sort of like Joseph Smith.

23 posted on 08/31/2002 9:20:39 AM PDT by Seti 1
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To: vance
bump
24 posted on 08/31/2002 10:48:44 AM PDT by The Californian
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To: Seti 1
Even the gospels were written a couple of generations later and repeated and recopied for several centuries before being put down in any form existing today.

Close, but not exactly. Historical evidence exists that point to the Gospels being written within 30+ years of the death/resurrection of Jesus.

The books of the New Testament do not appear in chronological order. The Apostle Paul wrote the Epistles (books of the NT that come after the book of Acts) before the four Gospels were written. Acts was finished before Paul died in A.D. 62. So the Gospels were written after the Epistles, but before Acts. This means that the gospel of Mark was probably written in the late 40s, Matthew and Luke in the early-mid 50s, and John in the late 50s.

The sheer magnitude of subjects that could be discussed regarding the Gospels and historical accuracy of the Bible prevents me from writing much more about it. I recommend Craig Blomberg's book The Historical Reliability of the Gospels, or Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ. Both are good reads.

The search for truth is often a life-long one. Good luck on your journey.

25 posted on 08/31/2002 11:05:10 AM PDT by Genesis defender
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
This statement is absolutely false.

Prove it.

26 posted on 08/31/2002 11:07:39 AM PDT by Genesis defender
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To: Seti 1
OK then, let's compare the historocity, as actual persons, of the Egyptian god seti with that of Jesus Christ. Either way, the evidence for Jesus is far superior. So much so that as we span the scope of human history and ask ourselves,"If God ever did come down to Earth and show Himself to us, when in history did He do it?" the clear answer is in the person of Christ. His life had more impact on human progress than any other person.

Furthermore, we are not voting. If voting is what makes something true, then Clinton was a better man than Bush I. Something can be true even when the majority declares, for motives of their own, that it is false.

I also take issue with your claims for the dates. We have scrapes and fragments of the gospels from the first century, or at worst the beginning of the second. That would be within one lifetime of the recorded events. Mark was likely written by about 60 AD by a man who was Peter's confidant. John was written by an eyewitness apostle. I don't want to stop to look it up now, but I remember the other two gospels were written by an eyewitness and the "secretary" of an eyewitness (Luke).

Josh McDowell's The new Evidence that Demands a Verdict" goes into great detail about the truth of this, if you care to know it.

27 posted on 08/31/2002 11:29:17 AM PDT by Ahban
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To: muawiyah
The probability of having a Torah buried in and around Mecca is very good. The probability of having even more ancient Hebraic texts buried there is also very good, and we might even be able to find buried texts containing the disposition of property owned by various persons found in the Bible.

Because of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we know that, around the time of Jesus (600 years before Mohammed), the Torah was pretty much the same as it is today. If any ancient pre-Torah texts were found buried in Arabia, they would have been written in an ancient Phoenician script which no Jew or Arab of his time would have been able to read. Since about 1000 years before the time of Mohammed, the Jews had changed over from Phoenician script to the square Assyrian script in which all modern Torahs are written.

So, the idea that Mohammed based the Koran on some ancient Hebrew writings is highly unlikely.

28 posted on 08/31/2002 11:43:01 AM PDT by Inyokern
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To: muir_redwoods
I'm not feeling threatened just a little shocked at your claim of "translation after translation", when the evidence is before your face that the translations are accurate and can be backed up with ancient documents dating from 40 years from the ressurection of Christ. I find your logic odd.
29 posted on 08/31/2002 11:44:13 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: RJCogburn
No Argument, Islam is crap...

Comparing Cristians and Muslims is like camparing apples and oranges.

Muhammad was a murderer and a pedifile.

Of course that's just my opinion based on what I've learned and you know how opinions are.
30 posted on 08/31/2002 11:56:14 AM PDT by Carbonsteel
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To: RJCogburn
No Argument, Islam is crap...

Comparing Christians and Muslims is like camparing apples and oranges.

Muhammad was a murderer and a pedifile.

Of course that's just my opinion based on what I've learned and you know how opinions are.
31 posted on 08/31/2002 11:57:16 AM PDT by Carbonsteel
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To: Seti 1
It is written: As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before me, every tongue will confess to God.

Romans 14:11

God said it, not marbren.

32 posted on 08/31/2002 12:14:34 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
What evidenced do you have that the bible has been altered? Have you done a an investigation?
33 posted on 08/31/2002 12:29:59 PM PDT by moteineye
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To: muir_redwoods
I don't want to offend anybody and I speak only for myself but they're both just books written by people.

Two small points:

1. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

2 Timothy 3:16

2. Throughout His Word, Jesus Christ spoke often of hell and the fact that unsaved, unredeemed men would face an eternity in damnation. Mankind would never write a book condeming himself to hell.

The Sermon on the Mount and the Ten Commandments are possibly the best the Bible has to offer...

Actually the entire Word of God is precious and priceless; giving guidance and answers to everything from finances to marriage to child rearing. However, the best that the Bible "has to offer" is the message of salvation; the good news that we as fallen, damned sinners do not have to spend eternity separated from God. There is a way out of the punishment that we deserve and will receive apart from our trusting Christ and accepting His sacrifice on the Cross in our stead for our sins.

Without that message, nothing else matters. Nothing.

34 posted on 08/31/2002 12:31:16 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: muawiyah
No need for such elaborate explantions. Mecca and Medina and all of Arabia for that matter were full of Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and pagans even after the prophet died.
35 posted on 08/31/2002 12:45:41 PM PDT by Destro
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To: Carbonsteel
The Koran is a plagarism and a perversion of the Bible.
36 posted on 08/31/2002 12:45:50 PM PDT by Trickyguy
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To: moteineye; Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
According to scholars I have read the old testament Bible fails in terms of historical accuracy in many of its stories and the translations sometimes get botched like "Thou shalt not kill" should be "Thou shalt not murder".

Not that I agree with the scholars I mentioned, just letting you know what the arguments agianst Bible accuracy are.

PS: The Egyptians who recorded everything seem to have no record of Moses or the Exodus.

37 posted on 08/31/2002 12:50:20 PM PDT by Destro
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: GiovannaNicoletta
So you BELIEVE.
39 posted on 08/31/2002 1:43:32 PM PDT by muir_redwoods
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To: Genesis defender
The search for truth is often a life-long one. Good luck on your journey.

You will agree that the dates you give are not universally agreed upon. At any rate, the Apostles are not likely to have been eyewitnesses to the Resurrection, although perhaps they knew someone who was (by your chronology).

As for good reads, try:

R.E. Friedman. Who Wrote the Bible
Israel Finkelstein & N. A. Silberman. The Bible Unearthed
J.K. Hoffmeier. Israel in Egypt
Thomas Thompson. The Mythic Past
D.B.Redford. Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times
Those are the books on my desk where I'm now sitting. They deal mostly with the OT which I find more interesting since I'm more interested in archeology than religion.

40 posted on 08/31/2002 1:58:23 PM PDT by Seti 1
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
"The Bible, on the other hand, has stood the test of time. To suggest that the Bible has been altered is against both reason and historic findings. "

You:" Okay, this is where I stopped reading. This statement is absolutely false. Next contestant please."

Hate to rain on your one person parade but ... back you your ridiculous statment.

41 posted on 08/31/2002 2:11:48 PM PDT by nmh
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To: muir_redwoods
Right, and you disbelieve, but I did want to get it on the record that God said that He wrote the Bible, not man.
42 posted on 08/31/2002 2:13:07 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: vance
Thank you for posting this. Maybe some will see ... but as you know, many will not.

Have a wonderful weekend too!

43 posted on 08/31/2002 2:13:14 PM PDT by nmh
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To: RJCogburn
It's sad to read a statement like this:

"Each requires faith, not reason, to be accepted by the respective believers. Arguing over which one is 'right' seems difficult."

Faith and reason go hand in hand when it comes to the Bible. This is not so with the koran. Again contrary to your who is "right" ... it is the Bible that is right. If you'd read it, you'd know that to be true. Those who know the Bible as being "right" don't have the difficulty of seeing where the koran is wrong, contradictory and illogical. It's just another blessing from being familiar with the Word of God. BTW, God isn't relative either. Right and wrong are clearly written about.

I like this verse on reasoning:

Isa.1:18

[18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

What the Lord is saying is that believing in Him and His teachings is not unreasonable and neither is faith in Him.

44 posted on 08/31/2002 2:21:41 PM PDT by nmh
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To: Ahban
OK then, let's compare the historocity, as actual persons, of the Egyptian god seti with that of Jesus Christ.

OK, let's do that. Seti was a great pharaoh (and therefore a god) and the father of a greater one. He built temples all over Egypt (most notably at Abydos and Luxor). His name and deeds are written on stone, plaster and papyrus in copious amounts. And if you would like to meet him, his mummy currently resides in the Cairo Museum.

If you are interested in checking out the Ancient Egyptian religion (which was an active religion for twice the length of time Christanity has been around) in its modern manifestation you can go to: http://www.netjer.org/home/. I'm not a believer but I find this group amusing.

45 posted on 08/31/2002 2:23:20 PM PDT by Seti 1
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To: skull stomper
Christians are the largest religious group on the planet,and in the USA.

The largest, yes, but far less than half and, therefore, fewer people believe in Christ than don't. Got it? Or should I go through it one more time? I know, here's the numbers:

Christianity: 2 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
Buddhism: 360 million
Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
primal-indigenous: 150 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 14 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 6 million
Jainism: 4 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 3 million
Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
Scientology: 600 thousand
Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

46 posted on 08/31/2002 2:35:03 PM PDT by Seti 1
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To: Destro
You are right about the Exodus. There is no mention of it anywhere. Several million slaves revolt, perform several miracles including killing all the first-borns, then destroy pharaoh and his army before taking off into the desert. Yet no scribe writes it down. Scribes in palaces, temples, warehouses, etc., record that such-and such slave was absent sick on such-and-such day and that 20 deben of wheat was issued to the painters at Abu Simbel but they let the slave revolt and the death of the pharaoh slip their minds--all of them. How do the Biblical archaeologists handle this? They say that any day now something will turn up.They also have a problem with the pharaoh they identify as the guilty king--actually, he lived into his late 90's and died of an infected jaw. He was the son of Seti and lies with his father in the Cairo Museum.

So for 40 years several million people wandered around the desert, leaving no trace, although traces of older and smaller groups of travelers are common.

Then Joshua takes over and utterly destroys the major cities of Canaan. Oops! Most of these cities have been identified and dug and there are no destruction layers where there ought to be. Several weren't founded until centuries later. How do the Believers explain this? Hoffmeier, who is a Believer and an expert thinks all those stories about destroyed cities were just typical bragging, not to be taken seriously.

OK, but David and Solomon--they are real enough, right? Sorry, Charley. In all the thousands of tablets comprising the diplomatic correspondence of the kings of numerous cities, the names of David and Solomon do not occur. (Now before someone races in to tell me about the Tell Dan inscription which says "bit dwd" on it, which can mean House of David among other things please go to the following:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/5210/tel_dan.htm.

This will put you in touch with a very serious scholar who is charging that the Tell Dan inscription is a forgery.

47 posted on 08/31/2002 3:27:25 PM PDT by Seti 1
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To: Seti 1
Twice the length of Christianity? Christianity is either Judism fulfilled or it is nothing. I guess one could say Judism is the pure form of proto-christianity (what God was leading us to). Some who have studied the matter more than I say Hinduism is a corrupted form of proto-christianity as well. Once you cut through all the goo there is one ultimate god expressed in three forms. There is a flood story with a Noah-type character.

Jesus may not have built any temples, but He built a kingdom in the hearts of men that has changed History forever. The works of Seti are of historical interest only, save the tiny group you reference.

I'll admit You can't find the body of Jesus anywhere. That is not because He didn't exist, its because He STILL exists. We have proof Seti is not an actual God, it rests, as you say, in the Cario museum. We have no such proof concerning Jesus even though it was in the interests of the authorities of the day to take steps to ensure the body of Jesus was available as a museum piece.

48 posted on 08/31/2002 3:39:53 PM PDT by Ahban
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To: Seti 1
Hmmmm. You do believe the holocaust occurred, right?

As far as the dates not matching, I think the scholars are off by about 2-3 centuries because the Egyptian king lists have some folks in there that were not kings. If they go a little earlier, the archeology is a much better, though admittatdly not perfect, match.

The cities founded centuries later were most likely re-establishments of the original destroyed cities.

As far as the lack of official documents of the Exodus, people were probably busy cleaning up after the disaster. BESIDES, GOVERNMENTS record their victories, not their humiliations at the hands of slaves.

How many records would they find in Iraq 2,000 years from now of the American's victory in desert storm? If there is any mention at all, it will be of THEIR great victory over us!!! Technology has changed, but I think we can both agree that the mindset of absolute dictatorships does not!!

49 posted on 08/31/2002 3:51:08 PM PDT by Ahban
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To: vance
bump
50 posted on 08/31/2002 3:54:52 PM PDT by tutstar
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