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September 5, 2002 | Illstillbe

Posted on 09/05/2002 6:59:29 AM PDT by illstillbe

Welcome to PeopleForAFreeCountry.com

No. I have no wish to trick any of you. The ongoing and virulent decline towards bitterness ... grudges carried from one thread to another ... name calling ... defections and assaults on good Patriots' integrity here lately got me to thinking what a site would look like if it was up and running during the Revolutionary War ... during a time when ALL of our futures were at stake, as they are now.

Would it be any different ... or would the same passions and conflicts prevail ... the same differences of opinion? What did they use instead of tin foil ... did they even need it?! What were the arguments ... how were they resolved, if they were?

We've the luxury of FreeRepublic to settle disputes ... or carry them on ... be active or not ... on a minute-by-minute basis. If these long ago Patriots had the same ... how would they have responded?!

I would ask ... if flames are in this thread's future, please direct them towards me ... otherwise...

Here's a start to a thread, begun well over 200 years ago, where everything old is new again ...

~~~~~


TOPICS: Extended News; Free Republic; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: taxreform
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To: FreeMe

Oh yeah? Well the Battle of Cowpens was a JOKE! Generals Green and Morgan didn't win the battle. I don't care what anybody says. Washington doesn't know one end of a musket from the other... and Green and Morgan are no better. What idiots. Next thing you know, they'll be sending our guys to Guilford Court, for crying out loud.

WE NEED PEOPLE IN COMMAND WHO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING!

Signed : arnold knows
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To: arnold knows

Thank you for finally saying what many of us is thinking. I, for one, am disappointed and disillusioned in our war tactics and leaders. I am tired of the in fighting and name-calling. Some people just can't see the wart on the end of their nose. That wart being Washington and all his land-grabbing cronies who are in this for political gain.

I begin to think People For A Free Country is a cult ... one I plan on leaving unless things begin to change around here.

Signed: George was my King
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To: Arnold knows; George was my King

Its apparent FreeMe has decided to ignore you both. But I can't. The Battle of Cowpens was brilliantly fought and led. Washington may not be perfect, but I have not seen anyone better. You armchair Generals overreach, I think ... and are doing nothing to help the cause.

Signed: LibertyLives
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To: LibertyLives

"But I have not seen anyone better" ... that must be the stupidest thing I have ever seen posted on PFAFC.

Queue tied too tight?! Just because you have not seen anybody better doesn't mean THERE ISN'T SOMEONE BETTER!

I swear, this sight has lost its focus. Just because we criticize Washington and his gang doesn't mean we want to remain tied to Britain. But is seems to me we are using a lot of folks who DON'T belong here ... Canadians ... Frenchmen come to mind ... to do the job your King Washington can't do himself ...

Signed: still in the woods
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To: arnold knows; George was my King; still in the woods

I really wish we could stop fighting amongst ourselves. I've noticed movement north. There are more important things to fight about.

Signed: BetsyR
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To: BetsyR

Oh shut up you. You're an egg shy of a pudding, as usual. And just looky here! We did battle at Guilford! And guess WHAT?! We LOST!

Ever wonder why there are stripes/bars on our new flag?! 'Tis a symbol! We went from one prison to another ... I really hope you Washington-worshippers are happy now.

Signed: rabble-rouser
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To: rabble-rouse

Hate to rain on your grog-filled parade ... we may have technically lost at Guilford Court, but it was a defining moment in the war. The British suffered losses not acceptable. Cornwallis in on the run.

Signed: KingGeorgeWearsBloomers
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To: KingGeorgeWearsBloomers

That's it. This site is obviously a bullhorn for weak-kneed Washington. I am done with it.

When the day dawns and you see we've done something so tactically dumb as to wage a battle in Yorktown ... or someplace just as difficult to prevail ... maybe you'll wake up.

I won't be there to see it though. I've better fields to plow.

Signed: only when it's my way
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To: ALL

I don't think their intent is to win. I think they only want more land. They are in cahoots with the King and are poisoning our soldiers and using tainted bandages. I have a reliable source, which told me of this.

Signed:everything everywhere is evil
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To: General Horatio Gates:

George Washington is a Mason. If that doesn't shed some candle light on the matter, what will? Liberty for common people? Hmmmph! Obviously, this ill-conceived revolution is nothing but a plot for a new world order.

Signed: Illuminnutti
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To: ordinary man:

What nut would position troops at Valley Forge ... in the WINTER ... right outside a British stronghold in Philadelphia? And you say Washington knows what he's doing?!” Training”.. Yeah, right ... drinking and conspiring, more like it. WAKE UP! The enemy is within!!! And why does he have to take his wife with him everywhere he goes ... does she spoon-feed him?!

Signed: red coats are coming
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To: LibertyLives:

And WHAT kind of General hires a German....von...von Stupid...that's it Von Stupid... to train and drill soldiers! The idea! Doesn’t he know the British are HIRING German mercenaries, for Pete's Sake? Sounds to me like Georgie General has a SPY in his camp!

Signed: a Tory Wannabe
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To: still in the woods:

And if I hear the King of Mount Vernon complain one more time about his soldiers not getting paid, I'm going to Puke!

Signed: Tax Tea!
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To: Tory Wannabe.

Worse than that, have you hear about the little Jamaican half-breed artillery officer he's got as an aide-de-camp? Somebody Hamilton? Why he lets that little bandy rooster of a man have any kind of command is beyond me...

Signed: Missing England
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To: Missing England:

Well, ME, you just reminded me of that Frenchie Georgie has warmed up to! Something verrrrry amiss there!

Signed: William Pitt
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To: Tax Tea!

You have a point. What did they do with that levy money we raised? We need a full accounting now, before things go any further. I just don't trust that Washington, he never smiles. The fighting should stop until we get some answers! I smell kickbacks.

Signed: Missing England
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To: William Pit

I’ve got to run. The soldiers that are quartered here need to check their mail. And I think they just killed our pig.

Signed: Missing England
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To: wigs is:

you’ve your facts wrong. We recaptured Stonypoint with General Washington personally leading the charge. End result ... very few Americans died ... over 60 Tories did and more than 500 Tories taken prisoner.

Signed: Stay the Course
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To: Stay the Course.

Sure ... confuse the issue. There's no talking to you ... nothing I can say will prove to you Washington is a lightweight ... maybe when we are all subjects to the King again ... and your Washington acts as his left hand ... you will finally believe what has been so obvious all along. Those who follow never lead.

Signed: I’m talking listen
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To: stay the course:

Stay, sometimes I tremble for our young country...I wake up to the mist clearing from the meadow...the old trees rising beyond up to Heaven, it seems. And I tremble and ache for the loss and sacrifice...And then I think of my dearest childhood friend, Abigail. She lives over on the coast now, married of course to another Friend. He will not fight, but instead build boats for the Cause. And my cousin, joined up with Washington at the start...5 years, it has been now! And my neighbor's sons....so strong and determined, proud...even after Guildford Courthouse.Some..some spirit moves among us.... Faith, stay the course....FAITH!

Signed: Angel in the Whirlwind
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To: Sweet Song Of Liberty

You are way off key here SSOL. How can you possibly minimalist or rationalize the resounding defeat at the Battle of Camden?! The "brilliant" General Horatio Gates and his troops crumbled like week-old cornbread.

I haven't seen anything that pathetic since the massacre of Jane McCrea.

Why don't you go back to the Tory Underground where you belong if you are going to be willing to swallow that twaddle?

Signed: manic-minuteman
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To: manic-minuteman

General Gates had 1400 Continentals and patriot troops from Virginia and North Carolina. He was still vastly outnumbered. Retreat was the only option.

I am of the notion that the problem points to our scouts. I don't think Gates had been given intelligent information to correctly formulate an attack.

To compare this to the torture/murder of Jane McCrea is beyond the pail.

Signed: NoLibertyNoLife
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To: NoLibertyNoLife

Come back to ground, man! A retreat is a defeat! My 10-year-old Nathan would have known better than to take on forces so much larger than his own.

Now I hear rumblings in Maryland that they are drafting an Articles of Confederation ... and get this ... each state is to remain sovereign! LOL! Like that will work ... Washington and Jefferson will be be payin' off their cronies with this one ... that's if any of us survive.

Signed: Brummell's jolly ghost
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To: Brummell's jolly ghost

If you and I had been on the Mayflower, I would have been sorely tempted to push you overboard.

Why not talk about all the battles we have won thus far?!

Signed: Queen Victoria Lacked Eyebrows
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To: Queen Victoria Lacked Eyebrows

Cease and desist with the taunting or you will be relegated to the stockade.

Signed: Shopkeeper
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1 posted on 09/05/2002 6:59:29 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: A Citizen Reporter; ABG(anybody but Gore); acnielsen guy; Angelwood; arazitjh; b4its2late; ...
And away we go!!!!
2 posted on 09/05/2002 7:00:04 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: All
I should mention that not all of these "imaginary" posts were written by me. This was discussed over on the ATRW thread ... and several other posters contributed. My thanks to them and to a certain somebody who formatted the above.
3 posted on 09/05/2002 7:03:44 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: illstillbe
Sounds like an interesting thread! :^)
4 posted on 09/05/2002 7:03:47 AM PDT by Pippin
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To: illstillbe
Simply O U T S T A N D I N G ! ! !
5 posted on 09/05/2002 7:04:28 AM PDT by Rivendell
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To: illstillbe
Patriots BTT!!!!
6 posted on 09/05/2002 7:05:11 AM PDT by Neets
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To: Pippin
I really like the name change!

Not that there was anything wrong with your previous name mind you, it's just that I have a soft spot in my heart for Hobbits!!

7 posted on 09/05/2002 7:07:05 AM PDT by Rivendell
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To: illstillbe
Way cool.

Or should I say: Thou art coolest. (?)

8 posted on 09/05/2002 7:07:20 AM PDT by Chairman_December_19th_Society
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To: Rivendell; Pippin
LOL! Well, it was fun to do ... feel free to add some of your own imaginings ... for I do not think human nature has changed much over the years ... and still we continue to grow and achieve ... and survive.
9 posted on 09/05/2002 7:07:21 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: Chairman_December_19th_Society
As art thou, Chairman!
10 posted on 09/05/2002 7:08:09 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: illstillbe
Your thread strikes on something that has been crossing my mind lately, namely how Ye Olde Time Freepers would have reacted to, for example, the response by Washington to the Whiskey Rebellion.

THE WHISKEY REBELLION

"The single largest armed confrontation among American citizens between the Revolution and the Civil War"

Thomas Slaughter

THE OFFENSE

Illustration of man carrying grain into still shed
click photo for credit
In 1790, the new national government of the United States was attempting to establish itself. Because the government had assumed the debts incurred by the colonies during the Revolution the government was deep in debt. During the 1791 winter session of Congress both houses approved a bill that put an excise tax on all distilled spirits. United States Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton, proposed the bill to help prevent the national debt from growing. Loud protests from all districts of the new nation soon followed. These protests were loudest in the western counties of Pennsylvania.

Acceptance of the excise tax varied with the scale of the production; large producers, who produced alcohol as a business venture, were more willing to accept the new tax. They could make an annual tax payment of six cents per gallon. A smaller producer, who only made whiskey occasionally, had to make payments throughout the year at a rate of about nine cents per gallon. Large producers could reduce the cost of the excise tax if they produced even larger quantities. Thus, the new tax gave the large producers a competitive advantage over small producers.


The smaller producers, who were generally in the western counties, had a very different perspective of the tax. To them the tax was abhorrent. The frontier farmers detested the excise because it was only payable in cash, something rare on the western frontier. Due to the great effort required to transport any product over the mountains back to the markets of the East, farmers felt it made much more sense to transport the distilled spirits of their grain rather than the raw grain itself.



THE REBELLION

Illustration of barrels and musket
click photo for credit
The Whiskey Rebellion took place throughout the western frontier. There was not one state south of New York whose western counties did not protest the new excise with some sort of violence. Probably the biggest concern about the excise tax was the revenues from it would support a national government the western people felt was not representing them well. Their grievances involved resolving the Indian problems and opening the Mississippi River to navigation. "They were 'convinced that a tax upon liquors which are the common drink of a nation operates in proportion to the number and not to the wealth of the people, and of course is unjust in itself, and oppressive upon the poor.'" Without solving these problems the national government could expect no compliance to he excise law.


People in the West resisted the excise tax with different attitudes. Most simply refused to pay the tax while others rebelled with violence. Excise officers received most of the fury from the rebels. Each officer was to open an office in his county of operation. The easiest form of non-payment was to prevent the excise officer from establishing an office in the county. To do this, rebels threatened anyone who offered to house the excise office. More often than not, the excise officer received threats to his well being. These threats were usually enough to discourage the officer from staying and trying to collect the tax. When an officer was brave enough to stay, the residents who opposed the tax committed such humiliations as tarring, feathering, and torturing the offender. This usually convinced the excise officer to leave the area.

WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA'S ROLE

"Western Pennsylvania was 'a center of terrorism under the guiding hand of Albert Gallatin.' "

Robert Hendrickson

The residents of western Pennsylvania played a major role in the "Whiskey Rebellion." It was the violent reaction of the people in this area that compelled President George Washington to call 12,950 militia men to suppress the rebellion in 1794. The residents of western Pennsylvania not only threatened the excise tax collectors, they proceeded to carry out their threats. An angry mob marched on collector John Neville's house in Washington County, had a shoot out with him and his slaves, and eventually burned his home. Fortunately, Neville narrowly escaped the grasp of the crowd. Not only did this mob attack the tax collector but they also stole the mail from a post rider leaving Pittsburgh. The logic behind this action was to discover who in the local area opposed the rebels. This was a federal offense for which the rebels could be prosecuted. Their actions of civil disobedience should not be considered as totally without justification.

ALBERT GALLATIN'S ROLE


Portait of young Albert Gallatin Since the people of western Pennsylvania felt they were not being well represented by Congress they decided to choose their own assembly. Each county was to choose between three and five representatives. These people were to bring the demands of their county to the assembly. Many of the representatives had ill feelings toward the national government. These people tried to push the residents of western Pennsylvania toward open insurrection. Men such as Hugh Henry Brackenridge and Albert Gallatin were the moderating force at these meetings and prevented the radicals from dominating the proceedings. Albert Gallatin's role was as a representative of the residents of Fayette County. As such he had to transmit the sentiment of the meetings even though he may have disagreed. Gallatin served as secretary and also delivered speeches that helped to pacify those radicals who were at the meetings. Often Gallatin delivered these speeches while radicals were in the crowd with their weapons in hand. Gallatin spoke about the mistake of open rebellion toward the government.


Unfortunately for Gallatin, the government officials did not differentiate between the moderates and the radicals who took part in these meetings. Participation brought guilt as far as those in the government were concerned. In 1794 the militia called by Washington marched to dispel the rebels in western pennsylvania. They also brought a list of names of participants that certain members of the Presidential staff wanted arrested. This list included Brackenridge and Gallatin. Twenty rebels were arrested. Fortunately, Albert Gallatin was not among them. Of the twenty rebels arrested, none were found guilty. The fact that he was included on the list of rebels caused Albert Gallatin in later reflections to call his participation in the Whiskey Rebellion his "only political sin."

NPS HOME search nps Friendship Hill welcome page Friendship Hill home page


FRIENDSHIP HILL NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE
223 New Geneva Road | Point Marion, Pennsylvania 15474 | (724) 725-9190 | E-mail: Brian_Reedy@nps.gov
Would there have been endless propaganda streams trashing Washington as a statist? Would we have endless articles from Ye Olde Lew Rockwell demanding the abolition of the fledgling government?
11 posted on 09/05/2002 7:13:32 AM PDT by William McKinley
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To: illstillbe
To: All

Hath anyone a clue to who the whiner might be that was in the back of the boat as we forged the Delaware constantly asking "Are we there yet?"

Signed: Gen G.W.
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Could it have been a daschle relative??? Inquiring minds would like to know!

12 posted on 09/05/2002 7:14:44 AM PDT by Rivendell
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To: illstillbe
After your last broadside at me, on August 24th, would you be so kind as to remove me from your ping list? Thanks in advance...
13 posted on 09/05/2002 7:15:10 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: illstillbe
Good work!
14 posted on 09/05/2002 7:16:42 AM PDT by lsee
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To: William McKinley
That is fascinating, William! Gives me much to ponder ... I had not "traveled" that far yet ...I would imagine the resulting thread would end up in the Backroom in swift order. LOL!
15 posted on 09/05/2002 7:16:59 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: illstillbe
So much talent ! ! ! You all are great.
16 posted on 09/05/2002 7:18:31 AM PDT by kassie
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To: Lazamataz
Mail L.
17 posted on 09/05/2002 7:18:48 AM PDT by Neets
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To: Rivendell
#12 ... LOL! Good one! My own imagination needs a bit of a refill right now. HA!
18 posted on 09/05/2002 7:19:56 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: illstillbe; Orual; aculeus; general_re; BlueLancer; Poohbah; hellinahandcart
Five stars.
19 posted on 09/05/2002 7:19:58 AM PDT by dighton
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To: lsee
Well, thank you!! It's interesting to imagine what might have been going through those Patriots' minds all those many years ago.
20 posted on 09/05/2002 7:20:57 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: illstillbe
This is a riot.
21 posted on 09/05/2002 7:28:59 AM PDT by hellinahandcart
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To: dighton
To: FearlesslyFree

Let's see ... Washington decides to make an attack on Howe's HUGE army in Germantown ... and he decided to do this in the fog ... and you still say he's brilliant? Give me Arnold any day, I say.
Posted by: Blunderbuss

22 posted on 09/05/2002 7:30:38 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: hellinahandcart
Thank you, hellinahandcart ... I have always liked your name!
23 posted on 09/05/2002 7:31:42 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: illstillbe
I think it is likely that there would have been differing accounts presented by differing factions. For example, the bit I included above talks about the intimidation tactics which were used to discourage anyone from taking the position of a tax collector. Yet one can find other accounts that make it sound as if the reason no one was willing to collect the taxes was because of a philosophical opposition rather than violent intimidation. What would the forum have been like? Perhaps this line from the second piece I linked to provides a clue:
Washington, Hamilton, and the Cabinet covered up the extent of the revolution because they didn't want to advertise the extent of their failure.

24 posted on 09/05/2002 7:33:25 AM PDT by William McKinley
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To: kassie
kassie ... thank you ... we all had fun doing it. I am glad you enjoyed it!
25 posted on 09/05/2002 7:35:33 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: William McKinley
I think you are correct, Willaim ...

To:Morning Glory

Get your head out of the clouds! 'Tis treason! Nothing less!
Posted by: Watching Judiciously

26 posted on 09/05/2002 7:38:00 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: hellinahandcart; OneidaM; illstillbe
To: Shopkeeper

May I asked why I was banned the other day. All I said was that I saw a black metal bird dropping off black clad men..

Signed:A+bess

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27 posted on 09/05/2002 7:39:19 AM PDT by Dog
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To: illstillbe
To: Gen Cornwalis

Cowpens lost - supplies taken - all troops captured or killed.

Maybe these bright red coats weren't such a wise uniform choice after all...

Signed: Col. "POW" Tarelton
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28 posted on 09/05/2002 7:40:10 AM PDT by Rivendell
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To: Dog
A+bess ... LOL! A+bert's Great Grandmum ... HAR!
29 posted on 09/05/2002 7:41:40 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: Rivendell
HEHEHE!!!
30 posted on 09/05/2002 7:41:40 AM PDT by Neets
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To: Rivendell
wise uniform choice ... HA!

I've always wondered about that. Sorta like wearing black to a wedding ...

31 posted on 09/05/2002 7:42:44 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: Dog
re #27

ROTFLMKO!!!

32 posted on 09/05/2002 7:42:57 AM PDT by Rivendell
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To: Dog
Good one Jim!!!!
33 posted on 09/05/2002 7:44:35 AM PDT by Neets
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To: illstillbe
LOL! Excellent work, and hopefully a perspective on things that will tickle some otherwise inactive funnybones!
34 posted on 09/05/2002 7:45:37 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: William McKinley
"Would there have been endless propaganda streams trashing Washington as a statist? Would we have endless articles from Ye Olde Lew Rockwell demanding the abolition of the fledgling government?"

I would hope so, the tax was punitive and unfair.

35 posted on 09/05/2002 7:47:05 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: Miss Marple
Hello, Miss Marple! Indeed ... it's a hopeful thought you have.
36 posted on 09/05/2002 7:48:18 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: MissAmericanPie
I would hope so ...

The figurative cable lines would undoubtedly have been smoking ...

37 posted on 09/05/2002 7:49:14 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: illstillbe; Tennessee_Bob; Howlin
LOL!
38 posted on 09/05/2002 7:49:53 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Miss Marple
Well I think it is time we got series.
39 posted on 09/05/2002 7:50:33 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: mercy; MadIvan
Something you might have fun with, mercy ... with apologies to our dear MadIvan ... we're after fightin' it again, sir ... but only to try and make a wee point. *grins*
40 posted on 09/05/2002 7:51:04 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: RedBloodedAmerican
Can't you wait at least until I get out of the shower!!!
41 posted on 09/05/2002 7:51:18 AM PDT by Neets
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To: OneidaM
Haven't we learned our wesson yet?
42 posted on 09/05/2002 7:53:36 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: illstillbe; OneidaM
To:thickhead

Please...get it through your thick head....it's,

One if by land

Two if by sea

I on the opposite shore will be.

Not... one, two, buckle my shoe,three four close the door.

Signed:PRevere

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43 posted on 09/05/2002 7:53:43 AM PDT by lysie
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To: RedBloodedAmerican
Hello, RedBlooded! I enjoy reading your posts ... though I do, occasionally, need to duct tape my hands. *wink*
44 posted on 09/05/2002 7:54:01 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: Dog
To: A+bess

That is what happens when you clad yourself in shiny burlap...

Signed: AttucksWasMyFriend

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45 posted on 09/05/2002 7:54:28 AM PDT by mhking
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To: MissAmericanPie
That it probably was.

But calls at the time for the abolition of the government were stupid.

Unless you are saying that Washington should not be remembered as a great President.

46 posted on 09/05/2002 7:54:48 AM PDT by William McKinley
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To: lysander13135
#43

lysander .. ROTFLOL! Good one! HAR!

47 posted on 09/05/2002 7:55:12 AM PDT by illstillbe
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To: illstillbe; OneidaM
(((hugs)) Great job.
48 posted on 09/05/2002 7:56:04 AM PDT by lysie
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To: mhking
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
49 posted on 09/05/2002 7:57:20 AM PDT by Dog
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To: lysander13135
Good one toots!!!!
50 posted on 09/05/2002 8:01:08 AM PDT by Neets
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