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Florida Terror-Alert Students Refuse Lie Tests
NewsMax.com ^ | 9/18/02 | Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff

Posted on 09/17/2002 10:37:06 PM PDT by kattracks

Three Muslim medical students who were stopped by police on Friday and interrogated for 17-hours after allegedly making jokes and threats related to the 9-11 anniversary have declined to take lie detector tests to back up their denials.

The refusal came after their accuser, Georgia resident Eunice Stone, said she'd be willing to submit to a lie test to prove her story, challenging them to do the same.

"While the young men were willing to take a polygraph.... we didn't want them to take a polygraph at this time," said the students' lawyer, Khummar Wahid, in an interview Tuesday night on MSNBC's "Phil Donahue Show."

"There's some scientific problems with taking a polygraph," complained Wahid, who is part of a legal team representing the three students assembled by the Council on American Islamic Relations.

Wahid said he also feared the test may be used as evidence against his clients, explaining, "at this time we're not 100 percent confident that the FDLE or Georgia or the FBI won't be in some way trying to file some sort of criminal charges here."

While he didn't expect his clients to be charged with a crime, the CAIR lawyer said he has yet to be told officially that they're in the clear. "We haven't gotten any real assurances publicly from (law enforcement) that they're not going to pursue anything here," he told Donahue.

The three Muslim students claim tipster Stone got it wrong when she called law enforcement on Thursday to report she overheard them while dining at a Georgia Shoney's restaurant making what sounded like plans for another terrorist attack on America.

"If they mourned 9-11, what will they think of 9-13?" one of the three said, according to the earwitness. "Do we have enough to bring it down?" the same student added, Stone said. "If we don't have enough to bring it down, I have contacts. We will get enough to bring it down," a second student allegedly replied.

According to reports the next day, a bomb sniffing dog in Florida later detected the presence of explosives in one of the students' vehicles after they were detained, but the FBI released the trio Friday without charges.

The students maintained that they made no references to 9-11 while dining at Shoney's and claimed that Stone had misinterpreted the rest of their comments.

Mrs. Stone told Donahue that if she had it to do over again, she'd do the same thing.

Read more on this subject in related Hot Topics:

War on Terrorism



TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: alligatoralley; aymangheith; bombhoax; florida; kambizbutt; omerchoudhary; terroristhoax
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1 posted on 09/17/2002 10:37:06 PM PDT by kattracks
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To: kattracks
I wouldn't take one, either; they're completely unreliable. Some states, to my knowledge, still have statutes and processes in place where the police departments can decline to investigate a rape complaint if the rape victim doesn't take and pass a lie-detector test. Would you want your mother or sister or daughter to depend on the "accuracy" of a lie-detector test in such a case? Polygraph tests are useful almost exclusively if the subject actually believes that they work and is thereby motivated to confess. Otherwise, they're just bad sci-fi.
2 posted on 09/17/2002 10:50:01 PM PDT by toenail
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To: toenail
Shut up.
3 posted on 09/17/2002 10:51:59 PM PDT by Hildy
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To: Hildy
Such engaging conversation, Hildy....
4 posted on 09/17/2002 10:53:52 PM PDT by toenail
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To: toenail
You're either with the us or with the terrorists.
5 posted on 09/17/2002 10:54:25 PM PDT by Hildy
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To: kattracks
"While the young men were willing to take a polygraph.... we didn't want them to take a polygraph at this time," said the students' lawyer, Khummar Wahid, in an interview Tuesday night on MSNBC's "Phil Donahue Show."

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

6 posted on 09/17/2002 10:57:31 PM PDT by freebilly
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To: Hildy
"You're either with the us or with the terrorists."

And?

7 posted on 09/17/2002 10:59:08 PM PDT by toenail
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To: Hildy
Please tell me you're jokeing.
8 posted on 09/17/2002 11:02:20 PM PDT by The FRugitive
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To: kattracks
"Wahid said he also feared the test may be used as evidence against his clients,

Where did this numb nuts go to law school?

9 posted on 09/17/2002 11:03:00 PM PDT by Michael.SF.
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To: toenail
These young men really have nothing to hide by taking a polygraph test. They committed no crime. So why not take the test?

By the way, they're all liars. I can tell. Know how?

Their story is too pat. In real life people squabble over what they discussed in the near past. These three were in total agreement and so, totally unreal. They are liars.

10 posted on 09/17/2002 11:04:48 PM PDT by goody2shooz
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To: The FRugitive
Hildy's not joking. If you're in a movie mood, "High Crimes" isn't half bad. The DVD's special feature section has a "Lie Detector 101" interview with a (if I'm not mistaken) former FBI agent, saying what one would think is common knowledge: polygraphs are used to elicit confessions from subjects who actually think that polygraphs work. Hildy will probably want Ashcroft to round her up for collusion....

Polygraphs? Ames.

11 posted on 09/17/2002 11:08:09 PM PDT by toenail
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To: Michael.SF.
Where did this numb nuts go to law school?

Nadine’s internet college for airline pilots, lawyers and manicurists.

12 posted on 09/17/2002 11:12:46 PM PDT by Texasforever
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To: goody2shooz
Polygragh tests have a high rate of false positives. If you really innocent it's better to refuse, rather than give them a reason to "believe" that you are guilty.
13 posted on 09/17/2002 11:14:53 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy
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To: toenail
Yea, I would never under any circumstances agree to a polygraph. Does that mean I'm a terrorist?

There are some scary people on FR.
14 posted on 09/17/2002 11:15:02 PM PDT by The FRugitive
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To: goody2shooz
My gripe here is that NewsMax think's it's newsworthy for someone to decline to take an unreliable, subjective test. If they were reliable, I might agree with you, but there's a reason they're not admissible in court. This is a non-story.
15 posted on 09/17/2002 11:24:15 PM PDT by toenail
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To: Oztrich Boy
They are not suspects in a crime. They have not been accused of breaking laws. Last I looked, gross stupidity wasn't on the books as a felony or misdemeanor.

In short, they have nothing to lose by being truthful.

In fact, they have a great deal to gain by telling the truth. Apologizing publicly to Eunice Stone for jerking her chain, scaring her out of her wits, and causing an alert in two states will go a long way to healing wounds right now. And further demonstrate that they are responsible, clear thinking and contrite young men who intended no harm.

The majority of Americans don't care if they are Arab or muslim, just that they be honest.

16 posted on 09/17/2002 11:27:29 PM PDT by goody2shooz
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To: Hildy
You tell 'em Hildy!! LOL
17 posted on 09/17/2002 11:27:43 PM PDT by The Final Harvest
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To: toenail
They are not perfect, and can be beaten by some people with special training, and by certain conscienceless psychopaths, but they are a valuable tool.

The NSA and CIA use them day in day out as a term of emplyment to check for undeclared foreign contacts etc.

18 posted on 09/17/2002 11:28:38 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: The FRugitive
Since you just got to FR on 9/1 - I bet you are the one who is joking; or else you're just a joke!!! LOL

I agree with Hildy - you're either with us or with the terrorists. So far the conversation appeared to be for the terrorists. So ... shut up!!
19 posted on 09/17/2002 11:30:24 PM PDT by The Final Harvest
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To: goody2shooz
Very perceptive!!
20 posted on 09/17/2002 11:33:17 PM PDT by The Final Harvest
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To: Travis McGee
http://antipolygraph.org/

Give them some time and coaching and I bet they can pass the old poly test...My guess is two of the three are being deceptive and Chadhoury is stuck with going along with the story...
21 posted on 09/17/2002 11:33:18 PM PDT by rolling_stone
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To: toenail
I actually got out of the Navy because I didn't want to take a polygraph, required for duty at NSA (Fort George Meade). I am fully aware they are unreliable.

But these three young men ARE NOT APPLYING FOR SECURITY JOBS NOR COMMITTED ANY CRIME. In other words they have no reason to avoid proving the truth of what they said and did in Shoneys.

Things look good if they pass, and if not, who cares?

22 posted on 09/17/2002 11:36:23 PM PDT by goody2shooz
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hmm if we are to take to heart some of the things on this thread--the bad news is, several courts all around the nation are "with the terrorists..." because they do NOT allow lie detector results in court.

for the most part, lie detectors are just to scare people into confessing.

23 posted on 09/17/2002 11:41:21 PM PDT by KneelBeforeZod
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To: toenail
I have had a lot of experience with lie detectors.

A modern (not like the one in the movies usually) lie detector which is conducted by a PROFESSIONAL (not just some Joe who took a week long course) is VERY VERY reliable.

In fact, from my experience, people who don't want to take them, are usually lieing.

Secondly, that stuff from the movie that was mentioned is bull$hit. That is hollywood crap. It is very VERY VERY hard to trick a lie detector, assuming you don't have a serious mental complication.

In fact, modern professionally administrated lie detectors are so accurate that the mossad, the shaback, and the CIA feel confident enough to use it on THEIR OWN AGENTS to verify truthfulness.

Don't believe anything in the movies.

Whether or not it should be allowed in court is a more complicated and seperate discussion, but as far as I'm concerned, if you're innocent, and really want to prove it, take one. If you're innocent you'll pass.

24 posted on 09/17/2002 11:45:44 PM PDT by solmar_israel
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To: Texasforever
Nadine’s internet college for airline pilots, lawyers and manicurists.

Do you have a link? I'm thinking of a career change. ;^)

25 posted on 09/17/2002 11:47:39 PM PDT by TankerKC
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To: freebilly
Yes, but they might be asked if they are aware that Princess Di was killed by the British SS so that she would not marry a Muslim? What if they were asked if the World Trade Center had been attacked by the Mossad? What if, what if? Only the Arab world has the truth. The West are all liars.
26 posted on 09/17/2002 11:52:06 PM PDT by AmericanVictory
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if they "passed" the lie detector test...would we all say "of course, they are crazy, thats how they passed."

I was on a jury for some guy who murdered his wife...he passed a lie detector test. Of course that was never allowed in court, but after we had convicted him, we read about it in the paper.

27 posted on 09/17/2002 11:52:48 PM PDT by KneelBeforeZod
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To: solmar_israel
I don't believe anything I see in movies. My point was something else entirely.

And for general screening, they're useful for guidance, but I wouldn't trust polygraphs in any specific instance.

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/senser071801.htm -- "As there are elsewhere in the Intelligence Community, there will be unexplainable false positives and, as we saw in the Ames case, false negatives. On balance, however, we believe the potential for damage to be done by traitors outweighs these concerns."

There was a thread a while back here on FR about detecting minute thermal changes around the eyes while lying. It's an evolutionary response, the article said, for reflexively looking for an escape route. I'll have to find out more about that; it sounds interesting. It would be great for swearing-in ceremonies for politicians.... Time for bed.

28 posted on 09/17/2002 11:56:22 PM PDT by toenail
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To: AmericanVictory
Yes, but they might be asked if they are aware that Princess Di was killed by the British SS so that she would not marry a Muslim? What if they were asked if the World Trade Center had been attacked by the Mossad? What if, what if? Only the Arab world has the truth. The West are all liars.

And they might be asked if America deserved 9/11 because of its Middle East policies and support of Zionism....

29 posted on 09/17/2002 11:57:17 PM PDT by freebilly
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To: toenail
now you know its not fair to quote the FBI when they say the good of the many outweighs the good of the few...

You're going to confuse everyone on this thread.

30 posted on 09/18/2002 12:01:21 AM PDT by KneelBeforeZod
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To: kattracks
Lie detector test or not, the one question I'd like answered (and probably the cops, too) is what set off the dogs? Are the dogs lying?
31 posted on 09/18/2002 12:17:13 AM PDT by etcetera
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To: kattracks
"If she had it to do over again, she'd do the same thing. "

Good for you, Eunice. You did the right thing. The Heroes of Flight 93 would be proud of you.

32 posted on 09/18/2002 12:25:45 AM PDT by Savage Beast
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To: toenail
Eunice Stone is willing. They're not.
33 posted on 09/18/2002 12:29:48 AM PDT by Savage Beast
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To: The FRugitive
Welcome aboard, FRugitive. Hope you own an asbestos suit...the flames can be brutal here. LOL
34 posted on 09/18/2002 1:25:24 AM PDT by brat
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To: Savage Beast
Eunice Stone is willing. They're not.

That says it all as far as I'm concerned. I've heard bits of some of their TV interviews - they keep changing their story. By refusing to take the lie dectector test - they just admitted they're "afraid" whether one believes the test are reliable or not.

35 posted on 09/18/2002 3:13:22 AM PDT by Elkiejg
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To: dennisw; Alouette; Thinkin' Gal
>The refusal came after their accuser, Georgia resident Eunice Stone, said she'd be willing to submit to a lie test to prove her story, challenging them to do the same.

Would a Muslim lie?

36 posted on 09/18/2002 3:44:34 AM PDT by 2sheep
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To: kattracks
You can pass a lie detector test. There are more than enough publications describing procedures. You can also practice lying. If you have a client who will be taking a lie detector test. You hire your own expert to prepare the witness. Lie detectors are a tool of intimidation for the uninitiated.

The idiot three may not be terrorists but they are definitly guilty of being a**h**es. (hope this is sanitized enough)
37 posted on 09/18/2002 3:45:05 AM PDT by Greeklawyer
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To: 2sheep
"Would a Muslim lie?"

Only to a non-Muslim.

Does it not say something about lying to non-Muslims in the Quran?
38 posted on 09/18/2002 3:49:04 AM PDT by Greeklawyer
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To: Savage Beast
Exactly! Everything else aside, {do they work, don't they? can they be beaten, are they accurate?} one fact still remains.

This woman who was called a liar stood up and said unequivocally that she would take one. Her three accusers all said they would not.

That in itself is the most telling fact in this case. IMO
39 posted on 09/18/2002 4:53:11 AM PDT by Hitlerys uterus
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To: solmar_israel
It is very VERY VERY hard to trick a lie detector, assuming you don't have a serious mental complication.

Like being a muslim?

Islamic Concept of Al-Taqiyah to infiltrate and destroy kafir countries

40 posted on 09/18/2002 5:05:03 AM PDT by FreedomPoster
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To: TankerKC; Texasforever
Nadine’s internet college for airline pilots, lawyers and manicurists.

I hear they're also doing training for those Federal professional airline security passenger annoyance positions at the aiports.

41 posted on 09/18/2002 5:07:26 AM PDT by FreedomPoster
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To: Greeklawyer
See my #40
42 posted on 09/18/2002 5:08:45 AM PDT by FreedomPoster
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To: Greeklawyer
"It's not a lie if you believe it."

George Castanza

43 posted on 09/18/2002 5:15:46 AM PDT by newfreep
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To: kattracks
"There's some scientific problems with taking a polygraph," complained Wahid, who is part of a legal team representing the three students assembled by the Council on American Islamic Relations.

Yes I agree that there is a valid reason for this man not wanting his "clients" to take a lie detector test. There IS a problem that could place them in peril. The problem is that the lie detectors detect LIES.

Eunice is putting her money where her mouth is. Why don't they?

44 posted on 09/18/2002 5:16:15 AM PDT by PleaseNoMore
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To: kattracks
The more I listen to these 3 stooges (and they are all over TV), the more convinced I've become that it was a setup for whatever reason:
1. to test police response
2. to disrupt
3. to get on TV
4. to make a fuss to discourage others from reporting suspicious behavior. Now Eunice is being called a liar and racist and other names.
45 posted on 09/18/2002 5:28:49 AM PDT by Dante3
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To: kattracks
I have been hoping all week for this turn of events. I don't blame anyone for not taking the test. I one had trouble with on during a job application. (got the job anyway).

But it's perfect for the publicity in this case, which is political rather than criminal.

46 posted on 09/18/2002 5:38:40 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Dante3
with appologies to William S.:

Me thinks they doth protest too much.
47 posted on 09/18/2002 6:17:19 AM PDT by Greeklawyer
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To: All
Is there any group set up to thank the woman who reported these comedians? I believe she needs our support and defense of her intentions.
48 posted on 09/18/2002 6:27:11 AM PDT by Greeklawyer
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To: toenail
You can lie and pass a polygraph. Was your original comment to lend support on Eunice's words alone? I would take that over a graph test.
49 posted on 09/18/2002 6:29:55 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Greeklawyer
Yes, a bank in her home town has set up a defense fund for her. I believe it is Regions Bank, but maybe someone else can verify that. She is going to need it. I heard her on a local radio call-in show last night and her attorney said that yesterday he received calls from the three attorneys representing the three Muslims. Apparently, they're planning to sue her. Can you believe that? There's also been a lot of hate mail and death threats to her. As a result, she is shielding her son who was with her at Shoney's from the publicity to protect him.
50 posted on 09/18/2002 6:34:53 AM PDT by twigs
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