Turin Shroud may be genuine after all

UPI via The Washington Times ^ | 10/9/2002 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

[SteveH]

GURAT, France, Sept. 24 (UPI) -- The Turin Shroud bearing the features of a crucified man may well be the cloth that enveloped the body of Christ, a renowned textile historian told United Press International Tuesday.

Disputing inconclusive carbon-dating tests suggesting the shroud hailed from medieval times, Swiss specialist Mechthild Flury-Lemberg said it could be almost 2,000 years old.

[null and void]

Perhaps. Coulda been one of those tough wiry squirts...

[Mat_Helm]

I Believe

[Steve0113]

Otherwise Judas wouldn't have needed to betray him...

That's a very good point I hadn't heard before. There must have been nothing unusual about His appearance.

[john in missouri]

Now here's an interesting thing. You talk about Christian faith, but refer to people's beliefs (based on quite a bit of evidence) that the Shroud of Turin just might have been the cloth Jesus was buried in as "crap." You publicly denigrate others, referring to me, for example, as a "rag worshipper" simply because I find it useful to have historical evidence for faith. Not even because I necessarily believe differently than you, but just because I find that historical evidence might be a useful thing.

Isn't there something just a little tiny bit incongruous here?

[rustbucket]

Thanks. You saved me from doing the calculations myself. This brings back memories of the nuclear chemical engineering course I took in grad school.

[ALS]

On my part or yours?

[Illbay]

I'm with you.

[Illbay]

Yeah, just you watch. Next thing you know "eternity futures" will go into the toilet, then where will you be with your nifty portfolio?

[Judith Anne]

Your comment to me indicates that you think me ignorant of scripture. Since you have chosen to flame me based on YOUR ignorance of me, I suggest you take it back, or find yourself on the receiving end of a little flaming yourself.

And for your information, Jesus Christ, Risen Son of the Almighty God, is Lord. Not you. YOU are no authority.

[ALS]

Looks like you are the flamer. Calm down. Does the bible say to freak out?

[Urbane_Guerilla]

As an agnostic, the shroud intrigues and fascinates me. I have followed this story for many years with an open mind. St Paul said that the literal resurrection of Christ was a necessary element of Christian faith, and that has always seemed to me to be unarguably true.

If in fact Jesus were the Son of God, who rose from the dead, it is necessarily believable that His burial shroud should be divinely preserved and presented to a later age, as a logical proof of the central fact of Christianity. What more stunning evidence than the meticulous scientific study of that fact, in the age of sceptical science?

The implications of the shroud, given the uniqueness of the shroud, deserve respectful attention.

[Judith Anne]

Interesting--you get called on your remark, then tell me to calm down. And you know I'm not calm, because....?

I'm interested in the shroud. So are a lot of people. You've made several remarks to me and other posters indicating that such an interest is tantamount to being anti-Christian, and you support those remarks with....? Evidence? No. Actual scripture? No.

Why don't you post on another thread, where at least you have some genuine knowledge? It would make you look better....

[ALS]

Because I read your last reply and you insist on calling those who refuse to worship Baal/rags, "anti-christian".
Shouldn't you be posting over in the needlework thread?

[Judith Anne]

You know something, ALS? I can't even figure out what you're trying to say--nobody is talking about worshipping Baal/rags here--this is just an interesting thread about the Shroud of Turin.

[Swordmaker]

My current thinking is that it is a type of painting where a clay statue is made and then covered with paint. The cloth is layed over the statue and then made to conform to the statue with felt hammers. This accounts for the image being only on the surface and the almost photographic nature of the image.

There are several problems with this scenario... first, there is NO PAINT on the shroud. There are no pigments at all. Secondly, the blood stains are human blood, type AB... and the image does NOT exist beneath the blood stains which means the blood was placed beforethe image was created... without disturbing the blood.

[Swordmaker]

Flury-Lemberg questioned the relevance of findings by other researchers who discovered pollen and dust traceable to the Middle Ages on the cloth.

"Of course it had such particles on it," she said, "after all, the Shroud was exhibited a great deal in those days."

This is a straw man argument... it is the wrong question and a non-sequitur.

It is NOT that there were "pollen and dust traceable to the Middle Ages on the cloth"... that is not unexpected... but rather that there were pollen and dust from the Middle EAST on the shroud... a place it could NEVER have been if it were a 13th Century forgery.

[RightOnline]

"Nuff said"? Hardly.

Say the word, and I'll FReepmail you the contact info for Dr. Tom D'Muhala, the physicist who led the STURP team in '78 and has been actively involved in Shroud research since.

Tell Tom how you have it all figured out without all the facts. I'll go pop some corn.........

[HINTS: You ignore things like: from what point on the Shroud was the sample taken for carbon dating (.....the one spot the team told 'em to avoid.......); anything resembling calibration among carbon dating labs at the time of the testing, the difference between "precision" and "accuracy", etc. ]

[Swordmaker]

Ping the list...

Alamo-Girl;
HiTech RedNeck;
Don Joe;
Young Werther;
RightWhale;
SMEDLEYBUTLER;
mjp;
M. Thatcher;
MHGinTN;
my_pointy_head_is_sharp;
Fred Mertz;
reformed_democrat;
AnalogReigns;
not-an-ostrich;
Justa; NYer;
Stavka2;
Ann Archy;
gPal;
SkyPilot;
AnAmericanMother;
Prodigal Son;
justsomedude;
Cap'n Crunch;
gcruse;
aruanan;
lodwick;
Asmodeus;
Freakazoid;
RightOnline;
two23;
Chemnitz;
Virginia-American;
Bloody Sam Roberts;
BoomerBob;
Dan Day;
js1138;
patent;
Desdemona;
Straight Vermonter;
Theresa;
BlackVeil;
polemikos;
Catholicguy;
eastsider;
ALS;
siobhan

[Swordmaker]

That's it? That's the rebuttal of the radiocarbon dating?

No... that is not "it". There is much more evidence invalidating the carbon-14 testing. The sample was taken contrary to the agreed protocols; the area it was cut from was an area that had been rewoven in medieval times (threads on half of the sample are righthand twist while the main body of the shroud is left hand twist); and a large body of information shows that linen is inherently un-carbondatable with numerous samples of Egyptian linens from mummy wrappings dating hundreds or thousands of years YOUNGER than the body they wrap... yet clearly they are contemporary with the body.

[Swordmaker]

It was estimated that if you combined all the pieces of wood from the cross that different churches claimed to have, you would have enough material to build a house.

That estimate was merely a facetious means of pointing out the absurdities of relic worship. However a recent survey of "pieces of the true cross" was done and found that when the total volume of all the pieces venerated in Catholic churches is tabulated, there is approximately enough to make 2/3rds of the patibulum, the cross piece.