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The Patriarchal Family in History
The Dynamics of History | 1933 | Christopher Dawson

Posted on 10/18/2002 4:18:48 PM PDT by Askel5

THE PATRIARCHAL FAMILY IN HISTORY

Christopher Dawson | 1933

The traditional view of the family was founded on a somewhat naive and one-sided conception of history. The knowledge of the past was confined to the history of classical civilization and to that of the Jews, in both of which the patriarchal family reigned supreme. But when the European horizon was widened by the geographical discoveries of modern times, men suddenly realized the existence of societies whose social organization was utterly different to anything that they bad imagined.

The discovery of totemism and exogamy, of matrilinear institutions, of polyandry, and of customs of organized sexual licence gave rise to a whole host of new theories concerning the origins of marriage and the family. Under the influence of the prevalent evolutionary philosophy, scholars like Lewis Morgan elaborated the theory of the gradual evolution of the family from a condition of primitive sexual promiscuity through various forms of group-marriage and temporary pairing up to the higher forms of patriarchal and monogamous marriage as they exist in developed civilizations.

This theory naturally commended itself to socialists. It received the official imprimatur of the leaders of German Socialism in the later nineteenth century, and has become as much a part of orthodox socialist thought as the Marxian interpretation of history. It was, however, never fully accepted by the scientific world, and is today generally abandoned, although it still finds a few supporters among anthropologists. In England it is still maintained by Mr. E. S. Hartland and by Dr. Briffault, whose vast work The Mothers (3 Vols., 1927) is entirely devoted to the subject.

According to Briffault, primitive society was purely matriarchal in organization, and the primitive family group consisted only of a woman and her offspring. A prolonged sexual association, such as we find in all existing forms of marriage, except in Russia., is neither natural nor primitive, and has no place in matriarchal society. The original social unit was not the family, but the clan which was based on matrilinear kinship and was entirely communistic in its sexual and economic relations.

The family, as we understand it, owes nothing to biological or sexual causes, but is an economic institution arising from the development of private property and the consequent domination of women by men. It is “but a euphemism for the individualistic male with his subordinate dependents.”

But in spite of its logical coherence, and the undoubted existence of matrilinear institutions in primitive society, this theory has not been borne out by recent investigations. The whole tendency of modern anthropology has been to discredit the old views regarding primitive promiscuity and sexual communism, and to emphasize the importance and universality of marriage. Whether the social organization is matrilinear or patrilinear, whether morality is strict or loose, it is the universal rule of every known society that a woman before she bears a child must be married to an individual male partner.

The importance of this rule has been clearly shown by Dr. Malinowski. “The universal postulate of legitimacy,” he writes, “has a great sociological significance which is not yet sufficiently acknowledged. It means that in all human societies moral tradition and law decree that the group consisting of a woman and her offspring is not a sociologically complete unit. The ruling of culture runs here again on entirely the same lines as natural endowment; it declares that the human family must consist of the male as well as the female.” [1]

It is impossible to go back behind the family and find a state of society in which the sexual relations are in a pre-social stage, for the regulation of sexual relations is an essential prerequisite of any kind of culture. The family is not a product of culture; it is, as Malinowski shows, “the starting point of all human organization” and “the cradle of nascent culture.”

Neither the sexual nor the parental instinct is distinctively human. They exist equally among the animals, and they only acquire cultural significance when their purely biological function is transcended by the attainment of a permanent social relation. Marriage is the social consecration of the biological functions, by which the instinctive activities of sex and parenthood are socialized and a new synthesis of cultural and natural elements is created in the shape of the family. This synthesis differs from anything that exists in the animal world in that it no longer leaves man free to follow his own sexual instincts; he is forced to conform them to a certain social pattern.

The complete freedom from restraint which was formerly supposed to be characteristic of savage life is a romantic myth.

In all primitive societies sexual relations are regulated by a complex and meticulous system of restrictions, any breach of which is regarded not merely as an offence against tribal law, but as morally sinful. These rules mostly have their origin in the fear of incest, which is the fundamental crime against the family, since it leads to the disorganization of family sentiment and the destruction of family authority. It is unnecessary to insist upon the importance of the consequences of this fear of incest in both individual and social psychology, since it is the fundamental thesis of Freud and his school. Unfortunately, in his historical treatment of the subject, in Totem and Tabu, he inverts the true relation, and derives the sociological structure from a pre-existent psychological complex instead of vice versa.

In reality, as Dr. Malinowski has shown, the fundamental repression which lies at the root of social life is not the suppressed memory of an instinctive crime -- Freud’s prehistoric Oedipus tragedy -- but a deliberate constructive repression of anti-social impulses.

The beginning of culture implies the repression of instincts, and all the essentials of the Oedipus complex or any other complex are necessary by-products in the gradual formation of culture. [2]

The institution of the family inevitably creates a vital tension which is creative as well as painful. For human culture is not instinctive. It has to be conquered by a continuous moral effort, which involves the repression of natural instinct and the subordination and sacrifice of the individual impulse to the social purpose. It is the fundamental error of the modern hedonist to believe that man can abandon moral effort and throw off every repression and spiritual discipline and yet preserve all the achievements of culture.

It is the lesson of history that the higher the achievement of a culture the greater is the moral effort and the stricter is the social discipline that it demands. The old type of matrilinear society, though it is by no means devoid of moral discipline, involves considerably less repression and is consistent with a much laxer standard of sexual behaviour than is usual in patriarchal societies. But at the same time it is not capable of any high cultural achievement or of adapting itself to changed circumstances. It remains bound to its elaborate and cumbrous mechanism of tribal custom.

The patriarchal family, on the other hand, makes much greater demands on human nature. It requires chastity and self-sacrifice on the part of the wife and obedience and discipline on the part of the children, while even the father himself has to assume a heavy burden of responsibility and submit his personal feelings to the interests of the family tradition. But for these very reasons the patriarchal family is a much more efficient organ of cultural life. It is no longer limited to its primary sexual and reproductive functions. It becomes the dynamic principle of society and the source of social continuity.

Hence, too, it acquires a distinctively religious character, which was absent in matrilinear societies, and which is now expressed in the worship of the family hearth or the sacred fire and the ceremonies of the ancestral cult. The fundamental idea in marriage is no longer the satisfaction of the sexual appetite, but, as Plato says: “the need that every man feels of clinging to the eternal life of nature by leaving behind him children’s children who may minister to the gods in his stead. [3] This religious exaltation of the family profoundly affects men’s attitude to marriage and the sexual aspects of life in general.

It is not limited, as is often supposed, to the idealization of the possessive male as father and head of the household; it equally transforms the conception of womanhood. It was the patriarchal family which created those spiritual ideals of motherhood and virginity which have had so deep an influence on the moral development of culture. No doubt the deification of womanhood, through the worship of the Mother Goddess had its origin in the ancient matrilinear societies. But the primitive Mother Goddess is a barbaric and formidable deity who embodies the ruthless fecundity of nature, and her rites are usually marked by licentiousness and cruelty. It was the patriarchal culture which transformed this sinister goddess into the gracious figures of Demeter and Persephone and Aphrodite, and which created those higher types of divine virginity which we see in Athene, the giver of good counsel, and Artemis, the guardian of youth.

The patriarchal society was in fact the creator of those moral ideas which have entered so deeply into the texture of civilization that they have become a part of our thought. Not only the names of piety and chastity, honour and modesty, but the values for which they stand are derived from this source, so that even where the patriarchal family has passed away we are still dependent on the moral tradition that it created. [4]

Consequently, we find that the existing world civilizations from Europe to China are all founded on the tradition of the patriarchal family. It is to this that they owed the social strength which enabled them to prevail over the old cultures of matrilinear type which, alike in Europe and in Western Asia, in China and in India, had preceded the coming of the great classical cultures. Moreover, the stability of the latter has proved to be closely dependent on the preservation of the patriarchal ideal. A civilization like that of China, in which the patriarchal family remained the cornerstone of society and the foundation of religion and ethics, has preserved its cultural traditions for more than 2,000 years without losing its vitality.

In the classical cultures of the Mediterranean world, however, this was not the case. Here the patriarchal family failed to adapt itself to the urban conditions of the Hellenistic civilization, and consequently the whole culture lost its stability. Conditions of life both in the Greek city state and in the Roman Empire favoured the man without a family who could devote his whole energies to the duties and pleasures of public life. Late marriages and small families became the rule, and men satisfied their sexual instincts by homosexuality or by relations with slaves and prostitutes.

This aversion to marriage and the deliberate restriction of the family by the practice of infanticide and abortion was undoubtedly the main cause of the decline of ancient Greece, as Polybius pointed out in the second century B.C. [5] And the same factors were equally powerful in the society of the Empire, where the citizen class even in the provinces was extraordinarily sterile and was recruited not by natural increase, but by the constant introduction of alien elements, above all from the servile class.

Thus the ancient world lost its roots alike in the family and in the land and became prematurely withered.

The reconstitution of Western civilization was due to the coming of Christianity and the re-establishment of the family on a new basis. Though the Christian ideal of the family owes much to the patriarchal tradition which finds such a complete expression in the Old Testament, it was in several respects a new creation that differed essentially from anything that had previously existed. While the patriarchal family in its original form was an aristocratic institution which was the privilege of a ruling race or a patrician class, the Christian family was common to every class, even to the slaves. [6]

Still more important was the fact that the Church insisted for the first time on the mutual and bilateral character of sexual obligations. The husband belonged to the wife as exclusively as the wife to the husband. This rendered marriage a more personal and individual relation than it bad been under the patriarchal system.

The family was no longer a subsidiary member of a larger unity -- the kindred or “gens.” It was an autonomous self-contained unit which owed nothing to any power outside itself. It is precisely this character of exclusiveness and strict mutual obligation which is the chief ground of objection among the modern critics of Christian morality. But whatever may be thought of it, there can be no doubt that the resultant type of monogamous and indissoluble marriage has been the foundation of European society and has conditioned the whole development of our civilization. No doubt it involves a very severe effort of repression and discipline, but its, upholders would maintain that it has rendered possible an achievement which could never have been equalled under the laxer conditions of polygamous or matrilinear societies.

There is no historical justification of Bertrand Russell’s belief that the Christian attitude to marriage has had a brutalizing effect on sexual relations and has degraded the position of woman below even the level of ancient civilization: on the contrary, women have always had a wider share in social life and a greater influence on civilization in Europe than was the case either in Hellenic or oriental society. And this is in part due to those very ideals of asceticism and chastity which Bertrand Russell regards as the source of all our troubles.

For in a Catholic civilization the patriarchal ideal is counterbalanced by the ideal of virginity. The family for all its importance does not control the whole existence of its members. The spiritual side of life belongs to a spiritual society in which all authority is reserved to a celibate class.

Thus in one of the most important aspects of life the sexual relation is transcended, and husband and wife stand on an equal footing. I believe that this is the chief reason why the feminine element has achieved fuller expression in Catholic culture and why, even at the present day [1933], the feminine revolt against the restrictions of family life is so much less marked in Catholic society than elsewhere.

In Protestant Europe, on the other hand, the Reformation, by abandoning the ideal of virginity and by the destruction of monasticism and of the independent authority of the Church, accentuated the masculine element in the family. The Puritan spirit, nourished on the traditions of the Old Testament, created a new patriarchalism and made the family the religious as well as the social basis of society. Civilization lost its communal and public character and became private and domestic. And yet, by a curious freak of historical development, it was this Puritan and patriarchal society which gave birth to the new economic order which now threatens to destroy the family,.

Industrialism grew up, not in the continental centres of urban culture, but in the most remote districts of rural England, in the homes of nonconformist weavers and ironworkers. The new industrial society was entirely destitute of the communal spirit and of the civic traditions which had marked the ancient and the mediaeval city. It existed simply for the production of wealth and left every other side of life to private initiative. Although the old rural culture, based on the household as an independent economic unit, was passing away for ever, the strict ethos of the Puritan family continued to rule men’s lives.

This explains the anomalies of the Victorian period both in England and America. It was essentially an age of transition. Society had already entered on a phase of intense urban industrialism, while still remaining faithful to the patriarchal ideals of the old Puritan tradition. Both Puritan morality and industrial mass economy were excessive and one-sided developments, and when the two were brought together in one society they inevitably produced an impossible situation.

The problem that faces us today is, therefore, not so much the result of an intellectual revolt against the traditional Christian morality, it is due to the inherent contradictions of an abnormal state of culture.

The natural tendency, which is even more clearly visible in America than in England, is for the Puritan tradition to be abandoned and for society to give itself up passively to the machinery of modern cosmopolitan life. But this is no solution. It leads merely to the breaking down of the old structure of society and the loss of the traditional moral standards without creating anything which can take their place.

As in the decline of the ancient world, the family is steadily losing its form and its social significance, and the state absorbs more and more of the life of its members. The home is no longer a centre of social activity; it has become merely a sleeping place for a number of independent wage-earners. The functions which were formerly fulfilled by the head of the family are now being taken over by the state, which educates the children and takes the responsibility for their maintenance and health. Consequently, the father no longer holds a vital position in the family: as Mr. Bertrand Russell says, he is often a comparative stranger to his children, who know him only as “that man who comes for week-ends.”

Moreover, the reaction against the restrictions of family life which in the ancient world was confined to the males of the citizen class, is today common to every class and to both sexes. To the modern girl marriage and motherhood appear not as the conditions of a wider life, as they did to her grandmother, but as involving the sacrifice of her independence and the abandonment of her career.

The only remaining safeguards of family life in modern urban civilization are its social prestige and the sanctions of moral and religious tradition. Marriage is still the only form of sexual union which is openly tolerated by society, and the ordinary man and woman are usually ready to sacrifice their personal convenience rather than risk social ostracism. But if we accept the principles of the new morality, this last safeguard will be destroyed and the forces of dissolution will be allowed to operate unchecked.

It is true that Mr. Russell, at least, is willing to leave us the institution of marriage, on condition that it is strictly demoralized and no longer makes any demands on continence. But it is obvious that these conditions reduce marriage to a very subordinate position. It is no longer the exclusive or even the normal form of sexual relations: it is entirely limited to the rearing of children.

For, as Mr. Russell is never tired of pointing out, the use of contraceptives has made sexual intercourse independent of parenthood, and the marriage of the future will be confined to those who seek parenthood for its own sake rather than as the natural, fulfillment of sexual love.

But under these circumstances who will trouble to marry?

Marriage will lose all attractions for the young and the pleasure-loving and the poor and the ambitious. The energy of youth will be devoted to contraceptive love and only when men and women have become prosperous and middle-aged will they think seriously of settling down to rear a strictly limited family. It is impossible to imagine a system more contrary to the first principles of social well-being.

So far from helping modern society to surmount its present difficulties, it only precipitates the crisis. It must lead inevitably to a social decadence far more rapid and more universal than that which brought about the disintegration of ancient civilization. The advocates of birth-control can hardly fail to realize the consequences of a progressive decline of the population in a society in which it is already almost stationary, but for all that their propaganda is entirely directed towards a further diminution in the birth rate.

Many of them, like Dr. Stopes, are no doubt so much concerned with the problem of individual happiness that they do not stop to consider how the race is to be carried on. Others, such as Mr. Russell, are obsessed by the idea that over-population is the main cause of war and that a diminishing birth rate is the best guarantee of international peace. There is, however, nothing in history to justify this belief.

The largest and most prolific populations, such as the Chinese and the Hindus, have always been singularly unaggressive. The most warlike peoples are usually those who are relatively backward in culture and few in numbers, like the Huns and the Mongols, or the English in the fifteenth century, the Swedes in the seventeenth century, and the Prussians in the eighteenth century.

If, however, questions of population should give rise to war in the future, there can be no doubt that it is nations with wide possessions and a dwindling population who will be most likely to provoke an attack.

But it is much more likely that the process will be a peaceful one. The peoples who allow the natural bases of society to be destroyed by the artificial conditions of the new urban civilization will gradually disappear and their place will be taken by those populations which live under simpler conditions and preserve the traditional forms of the family.



The meek shall inherit the earth.




[1] B. Malinowski, Sex and Repression in Savage Society (1927), p. 213.
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[2] Malinowski, op. cit., p..i82.
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[3] Laws, 773 F.
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[4] For this reason the Catholic Church has always associated its teaching on marriage with the patriarchal tradition, and even today she still concludes the marriage service with the ancient patriarchal benediction: ‘May the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, be with you and may he fulfill his blessing upon you that you may see your children’s children even to the third and fourth generation.
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[5] He writes that in his days the diminution of population in Greece was so great that the towns were becoming deserted and the fields untilled. The reason of this is neither war nor pestilence, but because men “owing to vanity avarice or cowardice, no longer wish to marry or to bring up children.” In Boeotia especially he notes a tendency for men to leave their property to clubs for public benefactions instead of leaving it to their heirs, “so that the Boeotians often have more free dinners than there are days in the month.”. Polyb., Books XXXVI, 17, and XX, 6.
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[6] The same change, however, has taken place in China, where, owing to the influence of Confucianism, the whole population has gradually acquired the family institutions which were originally peculiar to the members of the feudal nobility.
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To: Polybius
Polybius brought up this point in his Histories, Book XXXVI, when he discussed when historians should not attribute certain calamities of society to the work of Fate or Chance or the Gods.

Great point, P!

It is a rather "primitive" idea that attributes success to the gods. Perhaps it is better called a fallacy. Although the primitive book of Job saw through this.

41 posted on 10/19/2002 12:34:21 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: cornelis
Great point, P! It is a rather "primitive" idea that attributes success to the gods. Perhaps it is better called a fallacy. Although the primitive book of Job saw through this.

However, whether he was a believer in the Gods or not, Polybius firmly believed that religion had a very favorable effect upon the character and virtue of the citizens of the Roman Republic.

Histories, Book VI, Chapter 56:

"The sphere in which the Roman commonwealth seems to me to show its superiority most decisively is that of religious belief.

Here we find that the very phenomenon which among other peoples is regarded as a subject for reproach, namely superstition, is actually the element which holds the Roman state together. These matters are treated with such solemnity and introduced so frequently both into public and into private life that nothing could exceed them in importance.

Many people may find this astonishing, but my own view is that the Romans have adopted these practices for the sake of the common people. This approach might not have been necessary had it ever been possible to form a state composed entirely of wise men. But as the masses are always fickle, filled with lawless desires, unreasoning anger and violent passions, they can only be restrained by mysterious terrors or other dramatizations of the subject.

For this reason I believe that the ancients were by no means acting foolishly or haphazardly when they introduced to the people various notions concerning the gods and the belief in the punishments of Hades, but rather that the moderns are foolish and take greater risks in rejecting them.

At any rate, the result is that among the Greeks, apart from anything else, men who hold public office cannot be trusted with the safekeeping of so much as a single talent, even if they have ten accountants and as many seals and twice as many witnesses, whereas among the Romans their magistrates handle large sums of money and scrupulously perform their duty because they have given their word on oath.

Among other nations it is a rare phenomenon to find a man who keeps his hands off public funds and whose record is clean in this respect, while among the Romans it is quite the exception to find a man who had been detected in such conduct."

When he describes such conduct, it should be kept in mind that Polybius was a Greek himself. :-)

42 posted on 10/19/2002 1:03:13 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: Askel5
The problem that faces us today is, therefore, not so much the result of an intellectual revolt against the traditional Christian morality, it is due to the inherent contradictions of an abnormal state of culture.

Wow. That's some "rabbit hole" you've got there, girl. But it sure does make perfect sense to me.

Will have to chew on this one for a while. Thanks for the bump to a truly excellent post.

43 posted on 10/19/2002 3:03:11 PM PDT by betty boop
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To: Polybius
Thanks for both of your informative posts.

I wonder if the decay mentioned couldn't have come from other causes than "decline in morality", with the latter following from the former.

For example, I wonder if Greece went through a land consolidation that disowned the small landower and the shepard of the commons. I thought I read that Rome experienced that - presumably after Polybius' time.

A new slave class, formerly self sufficient, then adopts slavish habits of "escape"...

44 posted on 10/19/2002 6:05:48 PM PDT by secretagent
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To: secretagent
I wonder if the decay mentioned couldn't have come from other causes than "decline in morality", with the latter following from the former....... For example, I wonder if Greece went through a land consolidation that disowned the small landower and the shepard of the commons. I thought I read that Rome experienced that - presumably after Polybius' time..... A new slave class, formerly self sufficient, then adopts slavish habits of "escape".

You are correct that Rome experienced a disownment of the small landowner and it occurred precisely during Polybius' lifetime between the Second and Third Punic Wars.

I would highly recommend "The Punic Wars" by Brian Caven for a detailed history of that period. During the First and Second Punic Wars, Rome relied on her citizen soldiers. They farmed their small farms during peace and then served in the Legions when duty called to defend the Republic.

The dogged determination that Rome showed until victory during the First and Second Punic War, despite massive naval losses in the First and devastating defeats by Hannibal in the Second, leaves you in awe of the Romans of that time period. It was their "Finest Hour" and the character of the Roman people during that time reminds you of the British and the American character during World War II.

However, the Roman government failed it's citizen soldiers in the end. Although some Conservatives glorify pure capitalism, what happened to Roman society after the Punic Wars shows that sometimes government does need to step in and do what is right, not only for the benefit of it's citizens but for it's own welfare.

Rome's failing was the absence of a social safety net for the families of their citizen soldiers. When a soldier lost his life or was badly wounded in battle and the wife could not maintain the farm in economic health, large landowners came in and bought those debt-ridden properties. The children of the veterans would then grow up landless and migrate to the city where the wealth from war booty allowed the government to feed Roman citizens that were less than productive.

The results were predictable and turned a noble citizen-warrior population into,.... well......Democrats.

The final nail in the coffin of the Roman Republic came when the Legions were manned by professional soldiers who were more loyal to their commanders than they were to the Republic. Where as earlier Romans fought to defend the Roman Republic and their homes, the new breed had nothing at home to fight for so they fought for their own enrichment.

Caesar just happened to be the commander that killed the Republic. With such an Army, it was only a matter of time before some commander did so.

A Julius Caesar would not have arisen in the citizen-soldier Roman army of the Punic Wars.

In regards to Greece, land ownership by large landowners was always a problem. In Athens, Solon (the Lawgiver) put a limit on the amount of land an individual could own in order to address the disownment of the small farmer. However, Greece only had about 20% of it's land suitable for farming so the Greeks had other venues such as maritime trade support it's citizens.

What truly brought about the end to ancient Greece was it's total lack of political unity. While the Romans had a gift for uniting, the Greeks were a herd of cats. Only massive threats such as Xerxes' invasion could get the Greeks to stop fighting each other and fight for Greece as a whole.

By the time of the Second Punic War, it became evident that whether the winner was Carthage or Rome, the divided Greeks would not be able to prevent a military takeover by the winner.

Polybius recounted a speech made by one Greek at a conference convened to attempt to resolve this problem of Greek disunity in the face of the military danger that was looming to the West:

Histories, Book V, Chapter 104.

I shall report the speech that Agesilaus of Naupactus made before the king and the allies at the first conference. It was as follows:

"It would be best of all if the Greeks never made war on each other, but regarded it as the highest favour in the gift of the gods could they speak ever with one heart and voice, and marching arm in arm like men fording a river, repel barbarian invaders and unite in preserving themselves and their cities. And if such a union is indeed unattainable as a whole, I would counsel you at the present moment at least to agree together and to take due precautions for your safety, in view of the vast armaments now in the field and the greatness of this war in the west.

For it is evident even to those of us who give but scanty attention to affairs of state, that whether the Carthaginians beat the Romans or the Romans the Carthaginians in this war, it is not in the least likely that the victors will be content with the sovereignty of Italy and Sicily, but they are sure to come here and extend their ambitions beyond the bounds of justice.

Therefore I implore you all to secure yourselves against this danger, and I address myself especially to King Philip. For you, Sire, the best security is, instead of exhausting the Greeks and making them an easy prey to the invader, on the contrary to take thought for them as for your own body, and to attend to the safety of every province of Greece as if it were part and parcel of your own dominions.

For if such be your policy the Greeks will bear you affection and render sure help to you in case of attack, while foreigners will be less disposed to plot against your throne, impressed as they will be by the loyalty of the Greeks to you.

If you desire a field of action, turn to the west and keep your eyes on the war in Italy, so that, wisely biding your time, you may some discovery at the proper moment compete for the sovereignty of the world. And the present times are by no means such as to exclude any hope of the kind.

But defer your differences with the Greeks and your wars here until you have repose enough for such matters, and give your whole attention now to the more urgent question, so that the power may still be yours of making war or peace with them at your pleasure.

For if once you wait for these clouds that loom in the west to settle on Greece, I very much fear lest we may all of us find these truces and wars and games at which we now play, so rudely interrupted that we shall be fain to pray to the gods to give us still the power of fighting in general with each other and making peace when we will, the power, in a word, of deciding our differences for ourselves."

45 posted on 10/20/2002 11:06:41 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: Polybius
Thanks Polybius. You really know this period!

Brian Caven, "The Punic Wars" - I'll see if I can find it used.

I don't know I agree with the majority of libertarians on land ownership or the Georgist libertarians who mark off land as a separate form of property, forever removed from private ownership.

Give me a recommendation for the Greek landowner situation, if you have one.

46 posted on 10/21/2002 10:13:36 AM PDT by secretagent
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To: LaBelleDameSansMerci
After reading your post, I feel like I have just been punched in the gut. You write beautifully. Thank you.
47 posted on 10/21/2002 1:32:35 PM PDT by Alain Chartier
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To: secretagent
Give me a recommendation for the Greek landowner situation, if you have one.

I don't have any particular text I can recommend to you dealing exclusively with the landowner situation in ancient Greece.

However, for an excellent, one stop shopping text on all things Classical, I highly recommend The Oxford Classical Dictionary that is actually a 1200 page, small font, one volume Classical encyclopedia rather than a dictionary.

It's entry on agriculture stated that although some large slave estates were established in pre-Alexandrian Greece, " Small estates remained neverthelessthe rule in the Greek motherland and were common also in the Greek colonies in Sicily and the Balck Sea coast."

Brian Caven, "The Punic Wars" - I'll see if I can find it used.

For any used book about any subject, try out the Adnced Book Exchange web page. It is a web page that gets used book dealers and buyers together. Just type in the title, author, list by cheapest price, hard back or paperback, etc. and you can find almost any used book you are looking for.

A quick search showed a copy for $10.

1. Caven, Brian
Punic Wars
Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London 1980. Light rubbing on DJ., First ? Edition, F/Fine, 308 pp. Bookseller Inventory #727 Price: US$ 10.00 (Convert Currency)
Bookseller: Milan Gilmore, Richmond, CA, U.S.A. | Search this Seller's Books | Ask a Question |

48 posted on 10/21/2002 10:05:58 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: Askel5
"...Where did you get that?..."

From the bowels of my brain.

"... have you read the Children of the Last Days series yet?...

No. Do you recommed it? I have an allergy to anything that smacks of millenialist infantile fatalism. (Maybe I should learn to submit before it's too late.)

49 posted on 10/23/2002 8:01:31 AM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: MHGinTN
"..humankind has lost the spark of frontiers and the room to ignite...

That is a stunning image. And yet, I reject your preceding conclusion. It is suffused with an anti-humaness that I am tempermentally, intellectually and spiritually unable to embrace. It is not so much a moral posture, in my opinion, as the physical posture of submission to a monstrous self-loathing---similar in many respects to the prayer posture of mohammedan men--a degrading, submissive anti-human posture; a posture that the Greeks loathed when they witnessed their Persian foes conducting their cultural rituals.

God did not become man in order to teach us to loath ourselves; still less to teach us to deform ourselves with fatalism and submissiveness. Further, I believe the idea of Jesus is as much an attempt by God to redeem himself as to redeem us. To rescue himself from the Grim Otherness which seems to please so many self-hating humans.

And yet, the news today reveals that the victims in Witchita died kneeling in submission; naked before their persecuters. So you may be correct. In which case I will proudly go down fighting, being wrong....

50 posted on 10/23/2002 8:22:38 AM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: Askel5
By the way, it turned out to be very interesting and informative thread. Still, I get the feeling of studying street signs in a ghost town. Carefully sifting through the yellow documents in a box in the attic as mildew suffues the air. We talk of Gramci--a nostradamus for the "Right"--and we read and re-read the Best Minds. All of them heartbreakingly right. I'll let Santayana's words describe us:

"...It is conservatism in a shipwreck. It has not the insight to embrace the fertile priciples of life, which are always ready to renew life after no matter what natural catastrophe. The good laggards have no courage to strip for the race. Rather than live otherwise, and live better, they prefer to nurse the memories of youth and to die with a retrospective smile upon their countenance....."

51 posted on 10/23/2002 8:33:24 AM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: LaBelleDameSansMerci
I reject your anthropomorphism of the Creator. The last physical frontier is beyond our generation ... deep space and other solar systems. The remaining frontier is the human spirit, that which lifted us above the animal kingdom from which our Creator raised us. That frontier is not dependant upon the vagaries of the spacetime universe of our physical perceptions. It is our collective ignorance regarding the nature of dimension time and dimension space that limits our peek into the future of humankind.
52 posted on 10/23/2002 5:55:56 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: blam; FairOpinion; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach
A Blast from the Past.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
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53 posted on 03/12/2007 11:29:46 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Sunday, March 11, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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