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Gun Control Group Warns of 'Sniper Subculture'
cns news ^ | 25 oct 02 | Robert B. Bluey

Posted on 10/25/2002 7:35:27 AM PDT by white trash redneck

An underground "sniper subculture" is brewing in the United States thanks to the aggressive marketing of so-called sniper rifles by gun manufacturers and lax gun-control regulations, according to a gun-control advocacy group.

The Violence Policy Center held a press briefing on the purported sniper subculture Thursday, only hours after police apprehended two suspects with alleged connections to the deaths of 10 people in the Washington, D.C., area. The group claims it warned of such an episode more than three years ago in its "One Shot, One Kill" report.

Tom Diaz, the group's senior policy analyst, warned that more incidents, similar to the shootings in the last three weeks, could happen unless federal and state lawmakers curb the sale of some long-guns and place new restrictions on shooting schools that teach individuals how to use firearms.

"From everything we see about the growth of books, the growth of websites, the apparent commercial success of these schools, we believe this subculture is growing," he said.

The resources available to gun owners, Diaz said, illustrate the ease with which anyone could carry out shootings similar to those in the Washington region.

"I don't know what their [snipers'] background or motivation are, but I know what they have been doing is exactly what you can learn from these books or at these schools," he said.

Police arrested John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo on federal firearms charges early Thursday morning. Authorities have not yet conclusively connected the pair to the shootings.

Joe Waldron, the executive director of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, said Diaz is using the shootings to advance his political agenda.

"This is another attempt by the Violence Policy Center to exploit tragedy and select buzz words that appeal to people's emotions," Waldron said. "In this case, they're saying it's the sniper subculture. Are there people who pay attention to those things? Yeah, but I don't believe it exists as an identifiable subculture."

But Diaz said one has to look no further than bookstores and the Internet to find evidence of the trend. While he does think it is appropriate to regulate schools that train gun owners, he shied away from any government interference with gun publications.

"I don't advocate for any restriction on the books and videos," Diaz said. "If people think it's morally a good thing to put these things out and if Amazon and Barnes & Noble are comfortable selling books that show how to shoot down helicopters and kill other human beings, then so be it."

He was not as lenient, though, when it came to what he termed "sniper schools," training centers that teach long-range shooting, located throughout the United States. While he said some limit training to police or military officers, others invite anyone seeking instruction to attend.

"Police and military snipers are well-screened," he said. "We have no bone to pick with them. They have an honorable and necessary profession, but we're concerned about the bleed-over into the civilian world."

Waldron said the facilities Diaz referred to have done a good job teaching people how to properly and appropriately use firearms. He added that training schools require background checks before any student is allowed to participate.

In addition, Diaz said the federal government should enact stricter gun-control measures. Tougher restrictions must be placed on so-called sniper rifles, such as the .50, .308, and .223 calibers, he said.

"The .50 caliber semi-automatic rifle, under federal law, is less regulated than a handgun," Diaz said. "That type of rifle ought to be brought under the National Firearms Act, a law that regulates machine guns."

Erich Pratt, spokesman for Gun Owners of America, said such a move would be unwarranted since those rifles are primarily used for hunting. He said the .50 caliber rifle is an "extremely big and bulky" firearm and he was unaware if one had ever been used to commit a crime.

According to a November 2001 Bureau of Justice Statistics report, rifles of all calibers were used in 1.3 percent of the crimes committed by felons currently serving sentences in state or federal prisons. The report did not specify the caliber of weapons used by the offenders.

Pratt echoed Waldron's concern that Diaz was merely using the recent spate of shootings to capitalize on efforts to impose greater restrictions on Second Amendment rights of citizens.

"They jump on every chance the can to demonize gun owners and firearms," Pratt said. "There have been 10 tragic murders in the last few weeks, but in that same time there have been thousands of self-defense cases [with firearms] that haven't grabbed the headlines."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; snipers; vpc
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It seems to me that there have been more military trained mass murder "snipers," like this creep Mohammed and Charles Starkweather in Austin, than there have been civilian trained members of the "sniper culture." In fact, I believe that there have been exactly zero civilian trained members of the "sniper culture" who have perpetrated atrocities like this.
1 posted on 10/25/2002 7:35:27 AM PDT by white trash redneck
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To: *bang_list

2 posted on 10/25/2002 7:38:19 AM PDT by Joe Brower
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To: white trash redneck
For some reason these anti-gun nuts seem to think that someone is going to come sniping for them personally. They're kooks!
3 posted on 10/25/2002 7:42:07 AM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: white trash redneck
They are shameless - Muhammad was not remotely part of any private sniper training group.
4 posted on 10/25/2002 7:43:03 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: white trash redneck
What about the Islamic jihadist subculture?
5 posted on 10/25/2002 7:46:08 AM PDT by valkyrieanne
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To: white trash redneck
Why all the concern about a "sniper subculture" and not a word about the "pop-a-cap-in-yo-ass" rap/hip-hop culture?
6 posted on 10/25/2002 7:48:12 AM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: white trash redneck
Tougher restrictions must be placed on so-called sniper rifles, such as the .50, .308, and .223 calibers, he said.

.50, .308, .223...How about the 223, the 50, and everything in between, just to make sure that we did not miss any other potential "sniper" rifle calibers. We already know handguns are evil. A large number of shotguns are used in crime, so we should go ahead and ban them too. Of course, this does not mean that anyone is against honest use of proper sporting guns. [sarcasm on]

7 posted on 10/25/2002 7:50:26 AM PDT by Stat-boy
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To: white trash redneck
...Charles Starkweather in Austin...

If you're referring to the "Texas Tower Sniper", it's Charles Whitman.

8 posted on 10/25/2002 7:53:39 AM PDT by DuncanWaring
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To: BenLurkin
It is just their fear, ignorance, and hoplophobia! I usually get them to burn by telling them, "On gun ownership, I'm 'pro-choice'." They practically have a seizure, right there on the spot!
9 posted on 10/25/2002 7:57:01 AM PDT by sheik yerbouty
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To: white trash redneck; dcwusmc
Wonder why VPC jumped past the 30.06??? My Garand is quite the gem at long range, and is well known to be extremely accurate out to 1000 yds with iron sight's. We all knew they would eventually come after the long gun's, as soon as they figured they couldn't demonize handgun's effectively any longer. The sniper wanna be was just the ticket for 'em. Isn't VPC run by that scumbag Morris Dee's?, or does he head up some other left/wacko group? Anyway, bttt...

dcw, you're a Garand kinda guy, thought you might want to see this.Blackbird.
10 posted on 10/25/2002 7:57:27 AM PDT by BlackbirdSST
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To: BenLurkin
For some reason these anti-gun nuts seem to think that someone is going to come sniping for them personally

I can't help wondering if this would be a bad thing or not. Gun control fanatics such as Diaz will never be satisfied as long as a single solitary ordinary citized has the slightest means of self-defense. So, if you follow gun control to its obvious conclusion there are only three end points.

  1. We are all totally disarmed and enslaved.
  2. We are all dead
  3. They are all dead
They work tirelessly to disarm and enslave us. Appeals to logic are useless, because it isn't a logical issue with them. It's an issue of dogma or doxology. The Bill of Rights means nothing to them. Our freedom is less than nothing to them, in fact our freedom is one of the things that they, being moral cowards, envy, hate and fear. Our safety is meaningless to them. They can only see in one dimension, they will never change, so if someone silenced a few of the more vocal ones would this necessarily be bad?
11 posted on 10/25/2002 7:58:20 AM PDT by from occupied ga
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To: white trash redneck
A bit of a stretch from the number-one antigun propaganda machine. They walk a fine line between being perceived as "experts" and looking extremely stupid when they try to shift perceptions by lumping dissimilar problems together to frighten people. Here they just look stupid.
12 posted on 10/25/2002 7:59:16 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Stat-boy
Dont forget black powder! Why that Sharps could kill at 1200 yards! Heck, even the old Kentucky long rifle could hold a 5" circle at 100 yards.
13 posted on 10/25/2002 7:59:53 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: white trash redneck
Remember, any and all rifles used for deer hunting are "high powered sniper rifles". That's the real motivaton behind the anti-gun-nazis.
14 posted on 10/25/2002 8:00:51 AM PDT by A. Patriot
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To: BenLurkin
1. There is a sniper sub-culture in America. They are called
Muslim terrorists.

2. About one more stupid gun law and they will be right.
There will be people coming after them.
15 posted on 10/25/2002 8:03:23 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: from occupied ga
Our freedom is less than nothing to them, in fact our freedom is one of the things that they, being moral cowards, envy, hate and fear.

Those who support gun control should be arrested and tried for sedition against the Bill of Rights.

16 posted on 10/25/2002 8:08:30 AM PDT by Mulder
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To: sheik yerbouty
It is just their fear, ignorance, and hoplophobia!

10-4 on hoplophobia. Obviously you've read Jeff Cooper's writings. As Col. Cooper points out these liberal anti-gunners don't understand weapons and don't want anyone having power they don't have and are afraid of.

Per gun schools, the good ones require background information and a sign-off from a responsible reference as part of the application process.

And what's wrong with "civilians" having "sniper" training anyway? A well-trained civilian can become a counter-sniper in situations like what happened in the DC area or elsewhere. Don't be telling me I can't get training that helps me survive in a dangerous situation or take the fight to the bad guys.

17 posted on 10/25/2002 8:10:44 AM PDT by toddst
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To: white trash redneck
One thing to notice is how quickly the leftists are trying to exploit the tragedy to push their misguided policies. Much as I hate the tactic, it's gotten to the point that it's necessary for the right to do the same thing. Let's use the tragedy to remind people that Jihad is going on within our borders. Until we eliminate it (with extreme prejudice if necessary) we can just look forward to more violence.
18 posted on 10/25/2002 8:11:29 AM PDT by Our man in washington
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To: white trash redneck
Lets close the shooting schools so that all future gun owners are not properly trained on how to use them and are not advised on the responsibilities that go along with gun ownership.
These people just keep getting stupider and stupider. Un-eff'ing believable!
19 posted on 10/25/2002 8:13:47 AM PDT by HEY4QDEMS
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To: taxcontrol
Dont forget black powder! Why that Sharps could kill at 1200 yards! Heck, even the old Kentucky long rifle could hold a 5" circle at 100 yards.

LOL! You are absolutely correct. In addition, we need to take immediate actions to ban whatever gun it was that Tom Selleck used in Quigley Down Under.

20 posted on 10/25/2002 8:15:40 AM PDT by Stat-boy
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To: BlackbirdSST
thanks for the ping. Yep, love my Garand. It's a sweet weapon. This moron knows ZIP about firearms and is too stupid to learn. Hate is a wasteful thing!
21 posted on 10/25/2002 8:21:50 AM PDT by dcwusmc
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To: from occupied ga
Appeals to logic are useless, because it isn't a logical issue with them. It's an issue of dogma or doxology. The Bill of Rights means nothing to them. Our freedom is less than nothing to them, in fact our freedom is one of the things that they, being moral cowards, envy, hate and fear.

Correct on all counts. I'll put in my vote for option #3.

22 posted on 10/25/2002 8:21:54 AM PDT by Noumenon
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To: Mulder
Those who support gun control should be arrested and tried for sedition against the Bill of Rights.

You left out the conclusion: that they be hung by the neck until they are dead.

23 posted on 10/25/2002 8:23:21 AM PDT by Noumenon
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To: Noumenon
I'll put in my vote for option #3.

That would be my first choice.

24 posted on 10/25/2002 8:25:25 AM PDT by from occupied ga
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To: white trash redneck
"Police and military snipers are well-screened," he said. "We have no bone to pick with them. They have an honorable and necessary profession, but we're concerned about the bleed-over into the civilian world."

This propagandist shows his disdain, here, for traditional America. The Police and military in America are not supposed to be a class apart. They are simply citizens with a particular job. But the Founding Fathers wanted an entire sub-continent of well trained gun users. That was to be our strength--the primary defense of our freedom. (See The Right & Duty To Keep & Bear Arms.)

It is interesting, isn't it, that it was one of those dangerous civilians, who finally located the snipers. It is surely a pity that Mr. Diaz cannot share a cell with the killers, so that he could study those who actually prey upon the innocent.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

25 posted on 10/25/2002 8:26:46 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: white trash redneck
worse than that, the so-called "sniper's weapons" the gun control-dummies are discussing are what the rest of us call "deer rifles".

also, just yesterday a bill was considered in congress to OUTLAW "pump action" weapons of ALL KINDS!

folks, it's time to WAKE UP, kick every single LIB out of city,state & federal government before they suceed in outlawing ALL GUNS.

for a free dixie,sw

26 posted on 10/25/2002 8:30:41 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: DuncanWaring
If you're referring to the "Texas Tower Sniper", it's Charles Whitman.

Thanks for the correction. Even as I wrote down "Starkwether," it didn't seem quite correct.

27 posted on 10/25/2002 8:34:37 AM PDT by white trash redneck
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To: toddst
And what's wrong with "civilians" having "sniper" training anyway?

Not a whole lot of difference between the skills involved in precision rifle shooting (HP, benchrest) plus hunting (stalking, using cover) and sniping. Their protestations to the contrary, the hoplophobes will be going after hunting and competitive shooting once they've closed down the "sniper" schools.

28 posted on 10/25/2002 8:37:24 AM PDT by white trash redneck
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To: taxcontrol
Don't be silly. Black powder at over 1000 yds? In the immortal words of General John Sedgwick, "they couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

What's that you say? That was just before they shot him? Oh. Never mind.

29 posted on 10/25/2002 8:37:45 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: white trash redneck
The resources available to gun owners, Diaz said, illustrate the ease with which anyone could carry out shootings similar to those in the Washington region.

The resources available to knife owners, Diaz said, illustrate the ease with which anyone could carry out stabbings similar to those in the Washington region.

The resources available to car owners, Diaz said, illustrate the ease with which anyone could carry out hit and runs similar to those in the Washington region.

If someone wants to harm someone else...they will find a way.

30 posted on 10/25/2002 8:40:14 AM PDT by Lucas1
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To: Ohioan
"Police and military snipers are well-screened," he said. "We have no bone to pick with them. They have an honorable and necessary profession, but we're concerned about the bleed-over into the civilian world."

Yes how can one forget the honorable and necessary actions of Lon Horouchi at Ruby Ridge. And of course the FBI's actions at Waco were also the very definition of honorable and necessary. < /sarcasm> (I put the sarcasm tag on for anyone who voted for Clinton or wandered over from DU and made it through all of the big words to this point)

31 posted on 10/25/2002 8:42:50 AM PDT by from occupied ga
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To: white trash redneck
Tom Diaz, the group's senior policy analyst, warned that more incidents, similar to the shootings in the last three weeks, could happen...

Only when we get a legal hunting season on the like of you're sorry waste of skin!

32 posted on 10/25/2002 8:45:43 AM PDT by bullseye1911
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To: white trash redneck
It seems to me that there have been more military trained mass murder "snipers," like this creep Mohammed and Charles [Whitman] in Austin, than there have been civilian trained members of the "sniper culture." In fact, I believe that there have been exactly zero civilian trained members of the "sniper culture" who have perpetrated atrocities like this.

Now, now, you know how mad it makes them when you use facts. I saw a poll on Fox last night, something like 76% of the public said more restrictive gun control laws would have had NO impact on the sniper killings. It's kind of scary, though, that 24% apparently thought it would have.

33 posted on 10/25/2002 8:45:43 AM PDT by coramdeo
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To: white trash redneck
the "cop killer bullets" the LIBS complain about, according to THEIR DEFINITION are "bullets which will penetrate a bullet-proof vest".

that means EVERY DEER RIFLE would be banned, should their "cop killer bullet" legislation pass into law!

free dixie,sw

34 posted on 10/25/2002 8:48:26 AM PDT by stand watie
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To: BlackbirdSST
I always like to find out who's behind outfits like the VPC. As usual, the liberal 'philanthropic' foundations are working hard to undermine American principles and the Constitution. I couldn't find anything about who's behind VPC at its website, but here's what a writer at KeepandBearArms.com had to say:

"Now back to the Violence Policy Center, a small anti-gun think-tank supported by grants from liberal-left foundations and wealthy benefactors who can afford their own armed bodyguards, but prefer a disarmed peasantry.

Our friends at the VPC have a standard procedure for dealing with all gun-related issues. They don't exactly lie, but they are masters of the half-truth and the twisted sound bite. Some of their past work has been diabolically brilliant. Millions of soccer moms who knew nothing about guns were terrified by VPC-inspired campaigns like the one that labeled gun shows 'Tupperware parties for criminals.'

Even when their tactics were blatantly dishonest, you had to admire their creativity and dedication to the cause."
35 posted on 10/25/2002 8:49:03 AM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: BlackbirdSST
Wonder why VPC jumped past the 30.06

Maybe because renowned gun-grabber Sarah Brady recently purchased a .30-06 "sniper" rifle for her son.

36 posted on 10/25/2002 8:49:14 AM PDT by GnL
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To: white trash redneck
. . . the hoplophobes will be going after hunting and competitive shooting once they've closed down the "sniper" schools.

Yep, they'll try and close down everything related to the "gun culture." Not on my watch will it happen and I (we) have a lot of (skilled) dedicated company. In fact, the hoplophobes have no idea. We'll leave it there . .

37 posted on 10/25/2002 8:54:54 AM PDT by toddst
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To: white trash redneck
"The .50 caliber semi-automatic rifle, under federal law, is less regulated than a handgun," Diaz said. "That type of rifle ought to be brought under the National Firearms Act, a law that regulates machine guns."

Can this jerk cite a SINGLE case where a .50BMG was used in a crime ?

God it's refreshing to see politicians and activists scared out of their minds.

38 posted on 10/25/2002 8:56:21 AM PDT by Centurion2000
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To: Bernard Marx
I seem to recall that Morris Dees heads up the lefty group harranging the militia movement. In times such as these, they come out from under every rock, and it get's hard to keep up with who is who. SPLC leaps to mind. At any rate, thanks for the input. Blackbird.
39 posted on 10/25/2002 9:01:51 AM PDT by BlackbirdSST
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To: Bernard Marx
Millions of soccer moms who knew nothing about guns were terrified by VPC-inspired campaigns like the one that labeled gun shows 'Tupperware parties for criminals.'

Too right! They are also responsible for the Eddie Eagle Program smear - "Joe Camel with feathers," and for the mendacious little cliche "gunshow loophole." They tried for some time to promote the silly phrase "pocket rockets," meaning concealable pistols, but that one flew with the wings of a lead brick. Can't win 'em all...

40 posted on 10/25/2002 9:05:10 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: from occupied ga
In the 17 and 1800's the people had the same type of firearms that the gov't had. The means of defense were equal.
No longer the case, gun control politicians would prefer we have nothing but registered BB guns and dull, blunt objects to defend our lives, property and families.
This comes about because the politically, mentally and physically dis-armed are FEARFULL people. Watch out for the fearfull....they will destroy anything for that warm, fuzzy, safe feeling.

41 posted on 10/25/2002 9:10:46 AM PDT by aeronca
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To: BenLurkin
For some reason these anti-gun nuts seem to think that someone is going to come sniping for them personally.</i?

When they start to come for the guns, they will be correct.

42 posted on 10/25/2002 9:11:05 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants
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To: GnL
Yep, no doubt you're right! Hypocrites, one and all! In any case, my message remain's clear to them all, anytime they want my gun's of any caliber, they are welcome to come up the driveway!!! I would urge Sarah B. and Chuckie to lead the way, and bring a camera crew, the look on their face, when they encounter my first line of defense,( my very territorial and protective Timberwolf, Harley) will be priceless. Blackbird.
43 posted on 10/25/2002 9:11:50 AM PDT by BlackbirdSST
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To: A. Patriot
Perhaps the deer and duck hunter crowd will now believe us when we tell them they want to take ALL of the guns away.
44 posted on 10/25/2002 9:15:24 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants
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To: white trash redneck

"I don't know what their [snipers'] background or motivation are, but I know what they have been doing is exactly what you can learn from these books or at these schools," he said.

An honest culture in government would be good. You should prove that you understand the U.S. constitution -- "..the right to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed". You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. High ranking government officials -- politicians and bureaucrats -- are a prime example. They all take an oath to uphold the constitution but fail to uphold it in practice.

Politics suck -- politics suck objectivity out and insert irrationality in

Sometimes a small error will be compounded over and over until it becomes a massive problem.

In mid-term and presidential elections tens-of-millions of people vote for the lesser of evils despite that it still begets evil. How can so many people thinking they're right be so wrong?

45 posted on 10/25/2002 9:18:52 AM PDT by Zon
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To: from occupied ga
The reality is - it's the only choice. One of the premier lessons of the twentieth century.
46 posted on 10/25/2002 9:21:08 AM PDT by Noumenon
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To: white trash redneck
If these military buffs were a real threat, I doubt that there would be any gun control advocates left around to harp on it!
47 posted on 10/25/2002 9:22:37 AM PDT by The Scorpion King
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Perhaps the deer and duck hunter crowd will now believe us when we tell them they want to take ALL of the guns away.

Wishfull thinking. I have been around these type of people a long time. They either believe "I got my gun and I aint gonna let anyone take it away (so I don't have to get involved" or "my hunting guns are protected under the constitution, why does anyone need those assault guns anyways?" Some are just plain cowards. Their reason for not getting involved: "I don't want to get on some gubmint list"

These types are either very ignorant or just cowards (or just "sorry people" as we say here in the South.) In the past, I have worked the NRA table at many gun shows. I know of what I speak.

48 posted on 10/25/2002 9:32:39 AM PDT by A. Patriot
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To: BlackbirdSST
In any case, my message remain's clear to them all, anytime they want my gun's of any caliber, they are welcome to come up the driveway!!!

By the time that sort thing starts, my family and I will have taken to the field with specific objectives in mind.

It's amusing to consider that these anti-self defense fascists don't seem to understand is that anything is a weapon.

49 posted on 10/25/2002 9:35:12 AM PDT by Noumenon
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To: aeronca
Watch out for the fearfull

I agree. I also think that we should be able to defend ourselves from the organized gangs of criminals as well as the random unorganized ones.

Organized gangs of criminals can be identified by several characteristics. They all dress alike - frequently wearing face masks so as to avoid being identified with their evil deeds. The have their "colors" that they wear (in some cases sets of initials). They get extremely vengeful when one of their own is wounded or killed. They make a great effort to track down anyone who injures one of the gang. Their attitude is one of "them" and "us" They view anyone not in their gang as a potential source of trouble or as a potential victim to be extorted. They enjoy bullying maiming and killing people, but are cowards at heart. Organized criminal gangs are frequently armed with the latest in modern automatic weaponry purchased with the money extorted from non gang members. They extort money from people for "protection" but in reality give no protection. These are just a few of the more obvious characteristics of organized criminal gangs. I'm sure people here can think of more.

50 posted on 10/25/2002 9:37:33 AM PDT by from occupied ga
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