[Bugbear]

Does anyone know what Moose was referring to by saying "The Duck is in the Noose"?

[FRMAG]

Considering that during a 26 year career I fired for record on 25 meter range at scaled targets in good to excellent conditions from a foxhole supported position its a crock.

The pressure on units to "keep the numbers up" is tremendous. That leads to the use of a .223/5.56 MM pencil all too often.

[xsrdx]

Others said about one in five qualify as expert.

That's about right. The news that qualifying "expert" is somehow a gimme would come as a surprise to a great many soldiers seeking additional promotion points, or the Expert Infantry Badge. 36 of 40 is tough, and usually requires many trips to the range and several hundred rounds.

The DC shooter wasn't a "sniper" - but he was a competent marskman. Every "expert" that climbs on the "my grandma can shoot better" bandwagon is doing a disservice to the training profession.

If it's that easy, we certainly don't need "experts" to train our soldiers or police, they can get all the training they need from reading Soldier Of Fortune.

This article is cr*p.

[sparkomatic]

That article is partly crap and partly true.

I spent 9 years in the army. I always fired expert. In fact in Basic Training I fired a perfect 40. And I'm mighty proud of it, too. In order to do that I had to hit about 4 (if I remember right) targets that were 300 meters distant.

The part that is true about the article is that the expert badge is meaningless. I know for a fact that there was quite a bit of cheating at the range. Since range scores translate directly to promotion points, a good score is important. And since scoring is done by your buddy, a good score is easily achievable.

But to make a blanket statement that the expert badge is meaningless, bothers me to a certain extent. Many of the expert badges out there are meaningless because they're not genuine. My badge is genuine and therefor I take exception to the comment.

How many are phony? I don't know, but I bet it's a high percentage.

I have a nephew in the army now, he says that some of the ranges have electronic scoring.

[sparkomatic]

Oh and hitting a nickel or dime at 100 yards is crap, too. The M-16 is not a less than 1 moa rifle. In fact, almost no rifle is a less than 1 moa rifle. I think the M-16 is probably closer to a 2 moa rifle. If a guy shoots a 3 round group there's a pretty good chance the guy can hit the nickel or dime. But he's not going to hit it every time. The rifle just simply isn't that good.

[Thumper1960]

The media, being gun stupid, spreads the stupidity around.

Here's for mandatory firearms training in ALL schools.

It's more important than knowing how to roll a condom on a bannana.

[abraxas_sandiego]

a friend of mine who's marine infantry was laughing about the army's "expert" rating for shooting at 300 meters---the marines have to hit the mark from 500 meters. time for the army to raise it's standards imho...

[glc1173@aol.com]

There's very little marksmanship ability needed to hit a stationary man-size target at 150 yds. or less - which is what these guys did. And they missed totally at least once - hardly the stuff of "snipers."

My shooting buddy's 16-year-old daughter is a much-better shot at that range - with iron sights - than Muhammad and Malvo were with a scope.

Scandals of antigun politicians - with how-to guide to "outing!

[Cicero]

After Basic Training, I was sent to Army Electronics School and then went into radar repair, so I was never sent to the firing range a second time. But I collected an expert badge from my one visit to the range in Basic Training at Fort Dix. I think I did better than some of my barracks-mates, but I don't consider myself an expert shot. And my vision isn't great, either.

20% may be a minority, but it's a fairly large minority. All it takes to qualify as expert is the will power to relax, hold your breath, not to flinch, and to give the trigger a steady squeeze.

[mrsmith]

"one in five qualify as expert"

I qualified as an expert, as would be expected from my earlier scoring. I think any young man who had been a competent hunter before basic could be expected to qualify as an expert.

[GISax]

The expert badge is only meaningless if your buddy pencil-whips your scorecard. Before I joined the army, I had never shot anything more intimidating than a BB gun. I now consistently hit 38-39 out of 40 and I am a bandsman for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!!!

Most people here could do what the "sniper" did with a couple hours training unless you shake so much you look like a human earthquake.

--Ear Assault!

[jackbill]

I still have my orders bestowing marksmanship badges on my basic training company from February, 1952. The weapon was the M-1 Garand.

Of the 230 shooters, there were:

27 Expert - 11.7%
110 Sharpshooter - 47.8%
85 - Marksman - 37%
8 - Unqualified - 3.4%%

I qualified as Expert and I had fired a .22 rifle only a couple of times as a teenager.