Posted on 11/06/2002 11:11:35 AM PST by Polycarp
If it was accidental, shame on Polycarp. Be more careful.
If it was deliberate, Shame on Polycarp. Be more honest.
My reply to you:
Stick to the subject. Do you understand what "Scripture" is and what is not "Scripture"?
I repeat again for those who have trouble with English, the Scripture does not teach the perpetual virginity of Mary, or her sinlessness, or her ascension into heaven, or the blasphemous attempt by the RCC to make her a virtual equal with Christ by proclaiming her as co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix. If you want to continue in your Mariolitry, go ahead and continue to pray to her as Roman Catholics and their fallible Popes do:
...Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul...
Salvation Only Through Mary The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary. Sweet heart of Mary, be my salvation! Pope Pius IX For, since it is the will of Divine Providence that we should have the God-Man through Mary, there is no other way for us to receive Christ except from her hands. Pope Pius X He will not taste death forever who, in his dying moments, has recourse to the Blessed Virgin Mary. What will it cost you to save us? Has not Jesus placed in your hands all the treasures of His grace and mercy? You sit crowned as Queen at the right hand of your Son: your dominion reaches as far as the heavens, and to you are subject the earth and all creatures dwelling thereon. Your dominion reaches even down into the abyss of Hell, and you alone O Mary, save us from the hands of Satan. Pope Pius XI Nothing comes to us except through the mediation of Mary, for such is the will of God. O Virgin Most Holy, no one abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; no one O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee! Every one of the multitudes, therefore, whom the evil of calamitous circumstances has stolen away from Catholic unity, must be born again to Christ by that same Mother whom God has endowed with a never-failing fertility to bring forth a holy people.Pope Leo XIII
A clear example of Scripture's teaching the opposite of Mary's perpetual virginity and Mariolatry may be found in Matthew 12:46-50, and in Mark 3:31-35, and in Luke 8:19-21, where it is recorded that Mary and His brethren came and sent Him word, `Thy mother and thy brethren stand without desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told Him, Who is my mother and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hands towards his disciples and said, Behold my Mother and my brethren; for whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.' Or as Luke expresses it, `my mother and my brethren are those who hear the word of God and do it.' Jesus further resisted the beginning of Mariolatry in Luke 11:27-28 “As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, ‘Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.’ He replied, ‘Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.’”
Holy Mary, Mother of God—What a statement! Is it true? Not by any stretch of the imagination. The Bible clearly teaches that the only HOLY one is God. Mary in what is known as her Magnificat, rejoices in God HER SAVIOR (Lk.1: 47). Holiness does not need saving. Mary, after the birth of Jesus, offers a sacrifice for HER SINS. Holiness need not offer a sacrifice for sins. Mary, as any believer, received her righteousness as a gift from the Father. There was nothing inherently holy about Mary. Even Thomas Aquinas denies the "immaculate conception" of Mary. Regarding the "Mother of God" statement much not need be said. God was not born nor was He created. Mary gave birth to the "humanity" of Jesus. Jesus was God, because He is God! The statement "Mother of God" developed out of a reaction to the denial of the Deity of Jesus by some. That overreaction has resulted in the tail wagging the dog so to speak. Mary was the vessel by which the incarnation took place but she was not the supplier of Divine chromosomes.
Mary was a wonderful vessel that the Father used. Mary was chosen for these reasons:
1. She was a fine, virtuous, faithful to the law Jewish maiden.
2. She was of the "seed" of King David.
3. She was a virgin.
These qualifications were the biblical reasons to choose her. Not having just one of these prerequisites would have caused God’s prophecies to fail. Did Mary play an important role in the Bible? Yes, but so did Noah and Joseph, etc. Remember, Jesus never called Mary Mother. Not even once! No Apostle ever asks her opinion on anything. No one in the Bible ever asks Mary to pray for them. After the first chapter of the fifth book of the New Testament she is never mentioned again, and then only in a list of other believers.
She is emphatically not the queen of heaven, let’s be clear about this, because the Bible never gives her this title. There is no queen ruling in heaven. The throne belongs to God and to the Lamb, but not to Mary (see Revelation 7:15,17; 22:1). In John 14:1 the Lord called heaven, "my Father’s house," but never said it was His mother’s house. Those who know the Holy Scriptures know that "queen of heaven" is an idolatrous title from the pagan mythology of Babylon (Semiramis), repeated in Egypt (Isis) and elsewhere by other names (see Jeremiah 44:15-19, 25). According to verse 15 of this text, many of the devotees of the pagan "queen of heaven" were women. This pagan practice of devotion to female deities invaded the professing church after the Roman Emperor legalized Christianity and professed to believe, making it popular. Instead of being persecuted, Christians were to be allowed to build temples to worship in, and some pagans erased the names of their gods and goddesses and substituted Biblical names. Instead of the Babylonian mother-god Semiramis and her son Tammuz, or the Egyptian mother-god Isis, and her son Horus, they put the names Mary and Jesus. This practice of devotion to the mother and her son is neither Christian, nor apostolic, nor Biblical.
We are not told to believe in Mary, trust her, nor pray to her. The Lord Jesus said, "Ye believe in God, believe also in me" (John 14:1) but He never said, "believe also in my mother." If it were necessary, why didn’t He say so? He taught the disciples to pray in that wonderful way, saying, "Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name" but have you noticed that He never taught them to pray to Mary? Christ said that whatever we ask the Father in His name, will be given us (John 15:16; 16:23). We can go directly to the Father through the Son, and Mary is never presented as a mediatrix or intercessor. No one in the New Testament ever prayed to her. The true Mary cannot hear our prayers nor answer them. She would have to be omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent to do that, and she is not, for she is not God. Anyone who prays to her is guilty of false religion and idolatry.
Peter wrote: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
I'm not concerned with what Popes or demonic apparitions preaching heresy [such as at Fatima - see Gal.1:8 and 1 Tim.4:1] We are to try the spirits - not all are of God [1John 4:1]. Spiritual deception will be more seductive as the time of Christ's coming draws near [Matt.24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.]
Put your complete trust in the Christ of the Bible - not a church, not Christ's mother, not the Pope, not me, not yourself or anyone but the sovereign God through Christ.
Heb.10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
1Pet.2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 ¶ To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev.1:3 ¶ Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
The reason the veil between the Holy of Holies in the Temple and the outer courts was rent by God from top to bottom was to declare that our High Priest [Christ] by his once for all sacrifice had done away with any need for an earthly priest. This is why priests are not mentioned as officers of the New Testament church. Pastors are to be married. We are seeing some of the fruits of the unbiblical practice of a celibate priesthood in the RCC priestly scandals of our day.
1Tim.4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
We do not need a presumptuous sinful, fallible, finite, mortal, earthly, human priest [the Pope] to be our mediator and high priest [or even Mary], when we have a sinless, infallible, infinite, eternal, heavenly Divine priest to be our only Pontifex Maximus [Highest Priest]- our Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone.
Heb.7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself...
Heb.8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb.9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Heb.10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
My third year Greek professor in seminary visited a RCC church in France that featured an enormous cross with Christ nailed to one side and Mary nailed to the other. To whom do Catholics pray more often, Christ or Mary? Who receives the most attention in the rosary, Christ or Mary? To whom did the current Pope dedicate the rest of his ministry to after the failed assasination attempt, Christ or Mary? Whom do the demonic manifestations at Fatima exalt more, Christ or Mary?
I appreciate the moral stands of many Catholics and the current Pope against abortion and homosexuality [although sodomite priests should be dealt with more severely]. But I have no desire to exchange Mariology for true biblical Theology and Christology. Mary was a sinner saved by grace just as I am.
Mary rejoice in God, her Savior [Luke 1:47]. Only sinners need salvation from sin all mankind has sinned, except Christ, whom the Bible does call sinless [Rom.3:23; Heb.4:15; Heb.7:26].
Enough! I have to get some sleep. At least we can all agree on praising God for the way the elections turned out last Tuesday.
Colossians 4:10 uses a separate Greek word to specify brothers and cousins, unlike the Hebrew or Aramaic languages which are sometimes ambiguous at this point:
Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and also Barnabas’ cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him); The bible never uses these two Greek words anepsios or sungenis in reference to Jesus brothers.
the term brother is never used in the New Testament to denote a cousin or relative or anything other than a BROTHER.
John 1:41 He *found first his own brother Simon, and *said to him, "We have found the Messiah"
Declaring it is not showing it.
His, Bob Z.
I stand corrected...but my point was Vatican II represented a substantial leap into mainstream Christian thought...i.e., RC's could now attend Mass and understand what was being said without a Latin-to-English dictionary. Also, charismatic programs such as Crussillo (THAT MANY PROTESTANT CHURCHES HAVE COPIED) were born.
It wasn't a "pronouncement" (or an "announcement" either), it was a major change. It bridged a major gap in the events of the bible we use for contemplation while praying.
How so? You don't need a script to pray
Not philosophy, tradition. And it comes from the early church. And she was "Immaculately" conceived. Human, not divine, but without sin. It all a mystery.
My contention is that if she indeed was, it would have been mentioned somewhere in Scripture...it is not. And if she were Immaculately conceived, why wasn't St. Anne, her mother, also; and her grandmother, her great-grandmother, her great-great-grandmother, et al?
The point of theology is that if God is truly omnipotent, which Judeo-Christianity teaches, then why does He need intercessors like St. Mary? And if Mary was truly miraculous, the why did she need her son to change water into wine at Cana?
As if those teachings of the Catholic Church about Mary were ever proved in the first place. They are not backed up by the Bible.
How absurd (to quote a certain poster here).
"He breathed on them...." Is this missing from your Bible? Does it change the meaning?
Heehee: as an Orthodox Christian, I think it's important to qualify: "source of all Protestant sects." Orthodox declared Rome heretical 500 years before the Reformation. When the reformers came to the same conclusion, they threw the baby out with the bathwater, though. So to speak.
The Church which gained it's property, wealth, and power from Constantine is not the "mother" of the Christian Church I recognize.
So, are you a Nestorian or an Arian?
I resist labels of all kinds. Suffice it to say, I believe Mary was the mother of the human Jesus. Does that satisfy you?
DING! DING! DING! Folks we have our winner of the day!
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