Freedom of Religion (Islam Counts)

Vanity | 11/17/02 | Persuasion

[Morrigan]

You asked for the definitions of "cult" and "religion"? Here they are:

Cult:
1.) a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader
b. the followers of such a religion or sect
2.) A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3.) The formal means of expressing religious reverence and religious ceremony and ritual
4.) A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease
5.) a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing
b. The object of such devotion
6.) An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest

Religion:
1.) a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and govornor of the universe
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship
2.) The life or condition of a person in a religious order
3.) A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a religious leader
4.) A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion

As you can see, the "religion" you defend so vociferously is a cult.

[Persuasion]

Cult: a. A Religion or religious sect...

It seems to fit both your definitions.

The wording is not, "Freedom of Religion, except for this one or that one."

It is not "Freedom of Religion, except for certain cults."

Their belief in Islam is protected, so long as it does not lead them to break any laws or to threaten the lives of other citizens.

So let me ask you again. What do you believe in? American Principles or getting your own way?

[Persuasion]

Muslims are violent, hateful, intolerant people.

Tell me, if that is the case, how do they differ from you?

[Persuasion]

I will accept your criticism of me and I will accept your defense of Muslims when I begin to see Muslims themselves turning in the terrorists in their communities. Until that happens, I can only repeat the words of the president whom you support whole-heartedly: “You’re either with us, or you’re with the terrorists.”

There are a couple problems with that. Many muslims live in very peaceful communities. Take my community. It's rather doubtful that any terrorists live here in my small town. If there are any, I sure don't know about them. I'd turn them in if I did. Now, a muslim is no more omnicient than I am. You can't turn in what's not there, and it's hard to know what IS there.

How many terrorists have you turned in lately? *gasp* None? Good heavens. Call the national guard. You're either with us or against us!

[Destructor]

"Muslims are violent, hateful, intolerant people."

"Tell me, if that is the case, how do they differ from you?"

For openers, I don't go around blowing people up! You reek of the stench of Liberalism! Why are you such an ardent defender of these malevolent creatures? Are you trying to be a good little politically correct robot? You are completely ignorant of Islam and what it's all about! I suggest you do a little reading.

Basically, Muslims want to spread Islam "by the sword." Their Koran tells them to convert people of other religions by force. If the people refuse to convert to Islam, then they are to be put to death.

[Persuasion]

For openers, I don't go around blowing people up!

Neither have the people I'm talking about. Tell me again. How are you different? You reek of the stench of Liberalism! Why are you such an ardent defender of these malevolent creatures?

Better than the stench of unthinking nazism.

I am an ardent defender of every innocent American. Whatever his or her religion happens to be. Because I happen to believe in the principles laid forth in the declaration of independence.

Why are you so ardently anti-american?

I told you before and I'll tell you again. I am not defending Islam. I don't agree with Islam. If every muslim followed everything in the Koran word for word, I might agree with you that each one is a threat. But it is naive to think that is the case.

You've criticized me for not reading, sir, but if you yourself would have read, you would already known this.

[MoGalahad]

You really should change your handle, Persuasion, because your self-righteous hypocrisy won't cut it on this board. If you can't see the difference between those who post on this board and the terrorists then you have some serious moral issues that need immediate attention. If you won't fight against those who intend to steal your freedom from you maybe you would be happier in Europe.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

You know I won't stereotype all my feelings about a certain group into one category. There are good people, peace loving people who "believe" that killing people is wrong. Who thought 9/11 was wrong and denounced it.

However, I'm really studying this subject. It is appearing those people are in the minority regarding Islam, not many Muslims are willing to speak out. That is unfortunate, because their silence is breeding hate and misunderstanding.

Just recently on the O'Reilly Factor on Fox News, they had a Muslim Mother who is being an activist for Muslims right to PRAY during school!! (several times a day.. and yes, to have special priviledges that would cause teachers to accomodate them).

I don't hate an entire group of people, but I must say it is wise that we know our enemies. RADICAL ISLAM is our enemy. I'm not sure I want to categorize all Muslims into the same mold. Without causing harm to my family, I'm remaining cautiously optimistic,..but cognitive.

The President is indeed a very wise man.. in that we can't have all out war in our own country. There would be chaos. We would be reduced to a third world country if we allow that kind of thing to happen on our soil. (Which would be playing right into the enemies hands.. they are jealous of us, and hate us).

Instead we must be willing to allow our government methods of tracking KNOWN behaviour.. and taking these people down one by one. Chop off the "heads" and the rest of the body follows/dies.

I'm coming to my feelings on this subject, because the leaders of the Muslim/Islam communities are failing to assure the rest of us that what happened is deplorable to them. A sin to Allah.

Its hard to stay un-prejudiced when there is so much "audacity" by the people of the Muslim faith. They won't speak out against their fellow Muslim, but they will speak out against other percieved wrongs.

They need to step forward more in stating that what a RADICAL Group of Islamist did, WAS WRONG!! They need to publicly CONDEMN it!

I believe our country is a melting pot of many nations and many religious beliefs. I just think we would be wise to be prudent.. to watch our backs and make sure "all" of us are protected.

Many lives have been given for people to have the FREEDOM to practice different religious beliefs. We were founded on Christian Judeo beliefs as a country.. but we understood the rights of any to practice their faith in peace and freedom. While respecting the right of others to do the same.

PEACE being the key word. That and understanding that our nation was founded "Under God"..and with certain rights for all. But any who are given the great gift of having religious freedom in our country.. must realize that it doesn't NEGATE what this country was founded on. It doesn't mean we will change our charter.. who we are as a whole. We aren't the COUNTRY they came from, but the COUNTRY they came to live in.

So, because you and I have had intelligent debate, I'm becoming even MORE cautious. I think we need to have ways to track peoples behavior.. the world has changed.

I feel that if a "group" (no matter what they call their faith) has ill will towards any group in our country.. they should be watched, closely!!

I'm still contemplating this whole subject. But I also believe we must be vigilant to remain free and to keep our children and grandchildren safe.

I've appreciated your dialogue regarding this subject.

FRegards, Vets

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Please see my post 168. I meant to ping you also to my response.. but hit the post button too soon. :o)

I understand your sentiments,.. but it is important to realize who is causing Americans to percieve the Muslim faith this way. MUSLIMS!! They need to vocalize more, to help us understand where their feelings are on the subject of Radical Muslims wanting to harm us.

I understand that even THEY, the average Muslim in the United States, would be considered an "Infidel" for speaking out. But if they are to "Live" in peace and freedom in the United States,.. they need to do what is necessary to achieve that peace. Speaking out against sin (I understand their faith would consider murdering terrorists who killed innocent people as sinners, and people who will never know paradise). It would go a long way in healing us all as a nation if they condemned what happened. If they pointed out the differences from them and RADICAL Muslims. Look what has just happened in Africa.. in Nigeria.

Don't be as quick to judge those here who are trying to figure out what the Muslim community is thinking without much input from the Muslim communities. Lets put the responsibility where it needs to be. And that is with those who are not explaining their belief very well. Who are not assuring the rest of Americans that they have NO ILL WILL Towards us. It would do a lot of good if they did.

We understand where the President is coming from.. and support him 200 percent. He is doing an awesome job, under a multitude of complex situations. But he is also being very diligent. WE need to support his initiatives, his proposals. What he is doing will insure our safety. All of us.. Muslims, Jews, Buhddists, Christians and everyone, people of all religious beliefs!!

That people are feeling more and more ill will towards Muslims is because the Muslims are failing to explain where they stand. We are seeing them murder and protest in a lot of other countries. It would be very wise to speak out.. to denounce the violence that is being done by other Muslims in the world, including what the radical Islamist did to us.

FRegards, Vets

[Destructor]

"Neither have the people I'm talking about. Tell me again. How are you different?

Okay. I'll clarify that statement. I'm not committing terrorist acts, or lending financial support to terrorists. Maybe those "innocent civilians" that you refer to aren't committing terrorist acts themselves, but they are supporting terrorism with cash donations to terrorist organizations.

"Better than the stench of unthinking nazism."

That is a matter of opinion. Personally, I find Liberals and Nazis equally offensive!

"I am an ardent defender of every innocent American. Whatever his or her religion happens to be. Because I happen to believe in the principles laid forth in the declaration of independence."

Again, you're being duped. They aren't innocent, and a lot of them aren't really Americans! Many of them have over-stayed their Visa, and are in America under false pretenses.

Why are you so ardently anti-american?

Again, I'm not the one who's defending the enemies of America. That would be you!

"I told you before and I'll tell you again. I am not defending Islam. I don't agree with Islam. If every muslim followed everything in the Koran word for word, I might agree with you that each one is a threat. But it is naive to think that is the case."

You are being deceived. The vast majority of Muslims are down with the whole radical Islam thing.

"You've criticized me for not reading, sir, but if you yourself would have read, you would already known this."

I have read about Islam, and the life of "propeht" Muhammad. I know the truth about this religion of deception, and violence. You might buy into all of the politically correct lies of the Media, but I don't! Actions speak louder than words!!

[DB]

Then we agree on much. I also agree Bush cannot and should not come out and condemn Muslims outright, especially Muslims in this country. It would be a bloody disaster. Many (nearly all) innocent people would die. Vigilantly justice is not what this country is about or should ever be about. I do not subscribe to the idea that all Muslims must die even if I think their religion is the root cause of much suffering in the world.

I do think those who call for attacks on us, are making plans to attack us or actually do attack us should be crushed. Those who threaten us (by calling for attacks) should be taken at their word and we should respond accordingly.

Overall I don't know what the answer is. I do know it's going to take a long time and many innocent lives will be lost. Very sad times…

Thank you for the kind words.

[Morrigan]

"The belief in Islam is protected, so long as it does not lead them to break any laws or to threaten the lives of other citizens."

But yet Islam has done both. Therefore, by your words, it should not be protected.

It has lead its followers to kill, rape, and hate those that do not follow Islam. Islamic law, Shariah, threatens the lives of Islamic citizens.

The fact that many Muslims have not killed infidels is not the point. There were many Germans that did not kill any Jews during the Nazi regime, and the same can be said of Russians under the Stalin regime.

Tell me, did all of those "good" people make a difference? I think we all know the answer to that.

There is a saying: "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing." I do not agree with this. Evil flourishes when people are evil enough to let it.

So I ask YOU again: How do you condone such a thing?

[A_perfect_lady]

Oh, aren't you just the most precious little thing!! Let me guess... 21? 22? Whatever. Here's the deal from my side of the screen:

If they attacked my country, I hate them unrestrainedly.

If they merely gave a few bucks to help fund the attack on my country, I hate them unrestrainedly.

If they cheered when it happened, I hate them unrestrainedly.

If they merely shrugged when it happened, I hate them unrestrainedly.

If they were horrified when it happened, I want to know why they embrace such a controlling, inherently totalitarian religion.

If they cried when it happened, I encourage them to memorize the Bill of Rights, abandon that controlling, inherently totalitarian religion, and I will embrace them.

And that's my final offer. Bombing starts in 5 minutes.

[A_perfect_lady]

I will become tolerant of Islam when there are churches and synagogues in downtown Mecca.

And I betcha you aren't holding your breath any more than I am.

[A_perfect_lady]

I've got to do a vanity post about how much I abhor silly twits.

Ping me when you do, 'cuz I've had it up to here with little tail-waggers whose only goal in life is to tsk-tsk me for venting my true feelings.

[Persuasion]

Tell me, will you be bombing the christians who
shrugged? The atheists? The others?

[Persuasion]

Their belief in Islam. Emphasis on their.

Note. I did not say we should simply do nothing.

We should attack, but we should attack the right people.
Those that have attacked us and those that would have
us killed. Not those who have nothing to do with it.

This is not a hard concept.

[A_perfect_lady]

Tell me, will you be bombing the christians who shrugged? The atheists? The others?

If you're talking about China, North Korea, and the various other communist countries, they are next on my list. If you mean the Canadians, the French, and the Germans, they are on parole and losing ground fast. They rank lower because the aren't affiliated with our attackers. If you can't see the difference for yourself, there's obviously no point trying to make you understand.

[HennepinPrisoner]

Islam is a barbaric, violent religion and I have no tolerance for its followers.

Sue me.

[Morrigan]

Hon, obviously this is a hard concept for you, no offense.

No where did I ever call for the "extermination" as you say, of all Muslims. Nor did I advocate their mass murder or detainment in camps. I believe I said that if we did this, we would be no better than the Nazis.

Islam, however, should not be practiced. Only people that don't read or watch the news think it is a peaceful religion. From my experience, both in watching world events and dealing with Muslims personally, those that do practice Islam are of poor moral fibre. That is why they are weak enough to practice such a barbaric way of life. These kind of people are not needed in the United States, therefore there should be no more Muslim immigrants. We should also denounce Islam for the evil farce it is and not call it a "religion of peace" when it so clearly is not.

I realize that you know Muslims yourself and think they are "nice". There are many people that seem "nice" but that doesn't necessarily make it so. It is very easy to be nice to someone's face. What matters is what they do behind your back. That is something that we can never really be sure of when dealing with Muslims because of Islam. We can't trust what is going on behind our backs. And from what I have seen so far, we have every right to be distrustful.

What you need to understand is tolerance only goes so far. Tolerance is not a thing without its limits. Most of us have exhausted our tolerance, and you can't blame some people for blowing up. After all, they are only venting on a forum, they aren't, for example, driving planes full of passengers into the sides of buildings.