Why men don't like church: testosterone

The Ottawa Citizen ^ | Sunday, December 22, 2002 | Emanuella Grinberg

[tutstar]

In my opinion, being religious in today's society is a bigger risk than not being religious. How many Judge Roy Moores are out there?

[ninenot]

In addition to which, you can notice a "feminization" of the music and 'decorative' arts now au courant in many Catholic churches. "Group hug" music is simply not appealing to men, nor are burlap wallhangings with oddly-affixed felt shapes.

Masculinity is definitely "out" these days.

[Desdemona]

Masculinity is definitely "out" these days.

Ummmm,...no.

Masculinity is just fine.

[Desdemona]

ping

[ninenot]

as well as man enough to hold the truth of God's work above all else.

AND Man enough to die for others.

This example of self-sacrifice ought to inspire the entire USMC.

[ninenot]

Well, the Bible is pretty clear on that -- hellsville for the little children

Well, your friends are either wholly mis-informed or are holding back: there's a Gospel passage in which Christ states UNEQUIVOCALLY "unless you are like one of these [little children] you shall NOT enter the Kingdom."

OTOH, maybe you don't really want to understand religion, eh?

[thulldud]

Thanks for proving what I just said.

You can't live in that hermetically-sealed, logic-proof enclosure forever.

You silly religionists, you make me laugh with your goofy beliefs.

I don't make things up. And if this makes you laugh, better get it in while you can.

[ninenot]

Well--I was referencing the "community experience", and you might not be.

Most of the St.Louis Jesuit crap is quite feminine (and you and I both know why--some of those poor creatures were from Milwaukee.) It is not metrically-enough driven to have any masculinity component to speak of (and a parallel from the "good old days" is 'Mother, Dear, O Pray for Me.'

Drivel.

Compare "Oh, God, Our Help in Ages Past," or even "A Mighty Fortress" or the Old Hundredth. While one may argue that these items are a bit too masculine, they are the diametric opposite of "Eagles Wings."

BTW: Gregorian Chant is the solution. Has no over-riding 'masculine' nor 'feminine' quality--actually balanced.

[Desdemona]

Well--I was referencing the "community experience", and you might not be.

Annoying, isn't it?

The St. Louis Jesuits (most now have left the society, except Foley and Dan Schutte) were (and still are) musically clueless. Too much Peter, Paul and Mary influence.

Chant works for all occations. There we agree.

[TomSmedley]

and it often takes supreme concentration to get through the often repetitious ritual to the intellectual meat...

At one time, prayer services in a local church I know and love were serious sessions of "back-seat driving" the universe. The prayers ranged around the world, and embraced real-world issues near to home. When praying for "kings and those in authority," folks would start out at the most important area of leadership -- fathers and husbands in the church -- and work their way down to the least important, the most trivial -- President Bush.

Alas, a new philosophy of prayer began directing these events, and the "signal to noise ratio" degraded below 1. There was a striking decline in the attention invested in the world around us, and a sickening hyptertrophy of effeminate "let's see how spiritual I can make myself feel" emotional acrobatics.

I'm praying more in private, now.

[Catholicguy]

<> Fortunately, I am in a healthy Parish. Yesterday, during the sermon, the Pastor reminded MEN of their DUTY to be the Spiritual Leaders of their family and that if the MEN did not do their job - there would be social chaos because one can't rely on the Priest, Sister, School Church to do the work that men are created for. The Church is in the home (as well as the Local Parish) and when folks bitch about the state of the Church, they seldom, if ever, look in the mirror as the source of the problem.

IMO, many are "bored" at Mass because they have NO idea what the Mass is about. Those who are "bored" at Mass reveal their ignorance of what the Mass is; and there is blame aplenty for that condition<>

[TomSmedley]

A great book on Catholicism, Goodbye, Good Men:

See also a great book on the issue by a catholic writer, Leon Podle's tome on the feminization of Chrisianity.

[anncoulteriscool]

****Huh! I thought it was because on Sunday the NFL conflicts with church in the western part of the country. (lame joke, I know)*****

I've always wondered about that....i've always lived in eastern time zone so I could go to church in morning and get home in time for footballl games!

[Mr. K]

"It seems that not being religious is a form of risk-taking, consistent with other patterns of short-sighted behaviour in men," said Rodney Stark..."

'Mr.' Stark obviously must not have the xperience of being a man...

[Blood of Tyrants]

I asked them if a non-beliver, a baby raised in some non-Christian country, for instance, would get to heaven, or spend eternity in hell. Well, the Bible is pretty clear on that -- hellsville for the little children -- tough luck on them.

You apparently don't know the Bible or you would't have made such a broad and incorrect statement. It is clear about the matter and children will not be held accountable for their sins as they cannot fully conceive of right and wrong. God is infinitely wise, just, and compassionate. Or perhaps that man is wiser and more compassionate in this matter?. Those raised without the Gospel will be held accountable according to natural law; i.e. that God's greatness is everywhere and there are things that are inherently wrong.

And the Bible also teaches that guaranteed salvation is not and should not be used as a "get out of jail free card". It is not a license to sin, it is a pardon FROM sin. Salvation doesn't make you perfect, only forgiven. Those who think that they can attain salvation without a change in heart and actions are in for a rude awakening.

BTW, I have no desire to "grab the hot coals and try to burn out the eyes" of non-believers. Well, perhaps with the exception of the ACLU.

[jlogajan]

It is clear about the matter and children will not be held accountable for their sins as they cannot fully conceive of right and wrong.

That would be a more rational position -- unfortunately it isn't what the Bible says. Anyhow, it wasn't just children I was referring to, but children who also grow up to be adults but never hear of Jesus are still sent to that great dumpster of eternal fire. The Bible says that Jesus said the only way to heaven is through a belief in him. Since these "children come adults" never have the requiste belief, the outcome is clear. Hell.

[Campion]

The Bible says that Jesus said the only way to heaven is through a belief in him.

No, it says that the only way to heaven is through him. The "a belief in" part is something added by some Protestant evangelicals. (And no, "faith" is not identical to "a belief in," anymore than being faithful to your wife means believing she exists and that she married you.)

God saves. Man does not save. Man's belief in God does not save. God saves. He can save a little child who dies in a non-Christian environment never having known about Jesus, if he so desires. It's not for us to set limits on his grace and mercy.

It's really none of our business what God does or did with people who unavoidably die without hearing the Gospel. It is our business to preach the Gospel to those we can reach, and to concern ourselves with their salvation, and in particular, with the salvation of the person we see in the mirror.

[jlogajan]

It's really none of our business what God does or did with people who unavoidably die without hearing the Gospel. It is our business to preach the Gospel to those we can reach

That would seem a cruel pursuit, if through ignorance they were guaranteed entry into heaven, and thus by your "evangelism" you introduce to them "choice" and therefore the threat of hell.

[MHT]

While I agree with you that knowing God requires self-sacrifice and self-discipline, I think that your information about why some churches are growing and some are dying is instructive. Most 21st-century people probably would not enjoy most 17th-century activities including religious services that required sitting a better part of the day, often in complete silence. Similarly, people of today are often more in touch with their spiritual selves through contemporary music, etc., and these mega-churches are using brilliant marketing to get Americans back into the pews. Church as an activity competes in ways it did not a century ago (i.e., ball games, travel and work commitments, shared custody, etc.) as well as with itself on television and radio.

However, whether or not people do or do not go to church on Sunday, I have come to the conclusion that, much like keeping the Christmas spirit the whole year through, it's often better to keep the faith going the whole week through. I would rather see a man pray about how life is going to work out for the guy he's about to fire than be in a church parking lot where basic rules of civility, muchless Christianity, have been forgotten. And because so many churches seem to preach about anything but the Bible (fund-raisers, schools budgets, political stands, etc.), it's often better to be engaged in reading the Bible in daily private quiet prayer time than enduring temporal rhetoric and calling it "worship".