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Cop took just 3 seconds to shoot dog
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Thursday, January 9, 2003

Posted on 01/08/2003 11:35:54 PM PST by JohnHuang2

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To: DannyTN
I guess that settles it then! :-)
651 posted on 01/12/2003 4:39:15 PM PST by Terriergal ("It's for the common good dontcha know!")
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To: optimistically_conservative
There were at least 5 officers in the video. Cokeville PD report says three of their officers were there and media reports 4 THP officers.......I wonder what the aggregate IQ was?

http://www.unknownnews.net/cache41.html

Officer who shot dog 'protecting self'
Mary Jo Denton
Herald-Citizen Staff

The police officer who shot and killed a dog during an incident on Interstate 40 here on New Year's Day says he felt he had no choice.
He was about to be attacked by the animal, he says.

And the whole episode originated with the Tennessee Highway Patrol, not the Cookeville Police Dept., city officials stress.

It was the THP officers who made the felony stop of a vehicle in which a North Carolina family was traveling, and the Cookeville Police Dept. was merely asked to come out and assist as backup officers.

State troopers involved were David Bush, David Roark, Jeff Phann, and Lt. Jerry Randolph.

Cookeville Police Officers Eric Hall and Mead McWhorter were dispatched to the I-40/S. Jefferson area at 5:14 p.m. that day to assist the THP.

(Sergeant Lamb of CPD was also there) One CPD had shotgun other had rifle.

More "details" here:
http://story.herald-citizen.com/newsstory5.htm
652 posted on 01/12/2003 5:08:19 PM PST by rolling_stone
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To: rolling_stone
"When asked during our investigation why the passenger door was not closed, Lt. Jerry Andrews indicated that if he or another officer had moved to that side of the car, he would have been in the line of any potential crossfire," the THP statement says. "Remember, at this time, the troopers on the scene were still under the impression that a felony may have been committed, and were acting accordingly."

I'm not buying this for a second. The tape clearly shows a THP officer approach the driver's side of the car shining his flashlight into the car. Someone needs to explain to me why he couldn't have proceeded either around the front of the car (not preferred) or the officer on the passenger side could not have moved up to the door and closed it (which he did do after Patton exited/was shot and Smoak's son was handcuffed).

Clearly, these officers prioritized the threat of the dogs leaving the vehicle - a gambled risk they lost. I can't help but wonder if this had actually been a car of felons, with firearms and aggressive dogs. It seems to me that angry barking dogs in the car may have prompted a sooner effort to close the open passenger side door.
653 posted on 01/12/2003 6:06:51 PM PST by optimistically_conservative
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To: optimistically_conservative
"When asked during our investigation why the passenger door was not closed, Lt. Jerry Andrews indicated that if he or another officer had moved to that side of the car, he would have been in the line of any potential crossfire," the THP statement says. "Remember, at this time, the troopers on the scene were still under the impression that a felony may have been committed, and were acting accordingly."

And the very next line of the same article states:

"Officers here in Cookeville who were not involved in the case and who viewed the tape yesterday said they believe it shows a trooper standing right beside the passenger door just before the dog hops out."

It sure looks like a trooper is standing next to the passenger side door when McWhorter passes him the cuffs, and even if he's not close enough to reach the door he's still in the line of fire that THP was worrying about.

654 posted on 01/12/2003 6:34:05 PM PST by delacoert
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To: delacoert
even if he's not close enough to reach the door he's still in the line of fire that THP was worrying about.

This "line of fire" is a line of bullshit.

There's going to be major coin passing to the Smoak's, likely from both the State of Tennessee and the city of Cookville.

655 posted on 01/12/2003 6:48:09 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
Absolutely. By already being in the line of fire it makes it rediculous to assert that the trooper didn't shut the door because he would then be in the line of fire.
656 posted on 01/12/2003 7:14:12 PM PST by delacoert
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To: Ken H
There was time enough to get all the occupants out of the car, handcuff them, and listen to repeated pleas from the family to close the doors so the dog wouldn't get out.

You are so knowing about time... the entire incident from the time the car stopped to the time the dog was shot was under 3 minutes. The LAST suspect was being handcuffed when the dog got out of the car. There are FOUR officers with THREE suspects counting Officer Hall acting as backup at a safer distance. The pleas to close the door occur only in the last 30 seconds or so. This is NOT a long time. The four officers were occupied with safely securing the human suspects.

The report on the breed of the dog is on the local TV station website.

657 posted on 01/12/2003 9:15:41 PM PST by Swordmaker
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To: Swordmaker
oops... lost a phrase... make that "...FOUR officers with THREE suspects in the video..."
658 posted on 01/12/2003 9:23:34 PM PST by Swordmaker
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To: Swordmaker
try counting again....
659 posted on 01/12/2003 9:29:20 PM PST by rolling_stone
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To: Swordmaker
You are so knowing about time...

Well, I knew enough not to claim it was THREE SECONDS.

In any event, the time and circumstances of the officers' failure to close the door, as well as other unanswered questions, will be gone over in great detail as the civil case proceeds.

660 posted on 01/12/2003 9:37:14 PM PST by Ken H
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To: Ken H
Well, I knew enough not to claim it was THREE SECONDS.

From the time the dog left the car until the shot was THREE SECONDS.

It was less than THREE MINUTES from the time the car was pulled over until the dog was shot.

661 posted on 01/12/2003 9:50:04 PM PST by Swordmaker
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To: Swordmaker
Your "THREE SECONDS" comment was in response to a question I posed as to why the officers failed to ascertain the potential level of threat the dog posed. See post #614 and #623.

BTW, I went to the Channel 5 news website and didn't see any "latest report" about the dog being part Pitbull. Could you provide a link or title of the article you read?

662 posted on 01/12/2003 10:13:55 PM PST by Ken H
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To: FreePaul
If the dispatcher says "sic-um" to a police officer (which did happen here) the police officer who blindly obeys should punished along with the dispatcher.

So if someone sees a lot of cash flying out of or off of a car, they shouldn't call the police? Or if the police get such a report, they should ignore it?

I don't know the area. Here we have a lot of meth labs. But other places it could be a nice guy who left his wallet on the roof and Andy Griffin would pull him over to hand it back to him, while Barney picked up all the stray bills for him.

663 posted on 01/12/2003 11:13:40 PM PST by patriciaruth (Airborne Assault!)
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To: Kevin Curry
Your post reminds me of the idiot liberal British newsman who got beat to a pulp in Afghanistan and hurried to assure everyone that his assailants weren't at fault, that he "deserved" his beating.

Can't believe I let that go by unchallenged. I'm slipping in my old age!

Look, I was a kid, I got bit by a dog, and that was that.

Maybe it was different where you grew up, but in my neighborhood kids had fights, bloodied noses, fell out of trees and broke bones, and got bit by dogs.

The parents knew those were the risks of growing up and being a kid.

No one tried to blame others for their own kid's stupidity and nobody gave a psychobabbling thought about questions of whether we "deserved" it or not.

664 posted on 01/12/2003 11:17:54 PM PST by Ken H
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To: palmer
That's your evidence that Hall was going after the dog? A few steps towards it (which also happened to be towards the car)?

No, that isn't my evidence that Hall was going after the dog. Is Hall's "backing up when he shot the dog" your only evidence that he wasn't going after the dog?

No wonder you refuse to admit he was backing up when he shot the dog. That would ruin your case.

Would it? You mean, of course, my saying that Hall moved forward from his covering position to shoot the dog intentionally?

Tell ya' what. You tell me where Hall was at 17:20:38. Find him. Where was he at that time?

Hall's a liar, but it isn't my job to prove it. Tell ya' something else. That lying lunatic almost blew Smoak's head off too after he'd finished with the dog's.

665 posted on 01/13/2003 2:30:38 AM PST by keri
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To: keri
That lying lunatic almost blew Smoak's head off too after he'd finished with the dog's.

It's clear on the tape that he turns to cover the Smoaks again but doesn't advance (like you claim he did with the dog). In fact he stands perfectly still, and doesn't move an inch for the rest of the tape. Had he shot at Mr. Smoak from his position he would have also hit both the of the cops holding Smoak. So, no, he didn't "almost blow Smoak's head off too".

666 posted on 01/13/2003 4:43:32 AM PST by palmer
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To: palmer
Hall doesn't move an inch??! That's Utter BS. Hall's back is to the camera for a second after he shoots the dog . Mr. Smoak is on the ground yelling and trying to get up. Hall starts *striding* toward Smoak with his shotgun leveled. The THP officer who grabbed Smoak more than likely saved Smoak's life.
667 posted on 01/13/2003 8:39:51 AM PST by keri
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To: keri
You seem to mixing up the details, there were two THP's who grab Smoak and hold him down. Hall turns to the Smoaks after he shoots the dog but he doesn't take one step anywhere.
668 posted on 01/13/2003 9:59:12 AM PST by palmer
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To: palmer
My details aren't mixed up at all. View the video at WKRN, the very beginning of it. The beginning of the clip actually shows what happened at the end of the shooting.

Hall's back is to the camera after he shoots the dog and Smoak is yelling "Ya'll shot my dog, why'd you shoot my dog?" We hear the voice of the TV female person .

Hall is most definitely moving sideways toward Mr. Smoak. My details are accurate. It's probably your failure to understand the clip isn't linear...if you watch it again, you should see exactly what I've described. I've done all I can do here. If you watch this clip as said, and focus on Hall as described, you will see I am right. If you still can't see it, you're blind and I can't help you.

669 posted on 01/13/2003 10:35:54 AM PST by keri
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To: FreedomCalls
"With a 12-gauge shotgun? What in the world was he going to do if they needed help? " Blast everthing in the general direction of the threat, of course.
670 posted on 01/13/2003 11:23:58 AM PST by DannyTN
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To: sinkspur
The Smoats should sue the TN State Police for leaving the door open. The Smoats should sue the Cookeville Police of shooting the dog. The TN State Police should sue Mr Smoats for recklessly leaving his wallet on top of the car and starting this mess. Mr. Smoats should be fined for littering. The lady who reported the Smoats car should be sued. The dispatcher should be sued. The gun maker and bullet manufacturers should be sued. The Smoats should be sued for not properly restraining the dog in a moving vehicle, which any vet will tell you an unrestrained dog is an accident waiting to happen. The car company should be sued for having made dog restraint devices standard. The police academies should be sued for not properly training for dog stops. The people who have called and threatened the 86 year old grandmother who is now afraid of her phone because she unfortunately is listed as E. Hall in Cookeville should sue everyone who has called her. Officer Hall should sue everyone who has made a threatening call or posted a threatening email.

sue Sue Sue SUE SSSSSUUUUUUUEEEEE!!!!!

671 posted on 01/13/2003 11:33:49 AM PST by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN
....sue Sue Sue SUE SSSSSUUUUUUUEEEEE!!!!!

That's Funny!

The police need to be de-militarized and a workable procedure for dealing with animal occupants of stopped vehicles should be created. The officer in question should apologize, and the family should be modestly compensated (by settlement). As for me, I'm going to restrain my dogs while transporting them from now on.

672 posted on 01/13/2003 11:56:19 AM PST by Theophilus
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To: Theophilus
Simple fact is the guy shot 3 seconds after the dog left the car -- clearly a dramatic & unnecessary overreaction. It's difficult to believe this was "life-threatening" - with several other armed law enforcement types within a step or two of him, it's difficult to believe that anything short of a bengal tiger could have caused life-threatening injuries before they could have come to his aid. This guy should not be a gun-toting law enforcement type. What if a 6-year old kid had leaped out of the car and run at him with a pocket knife??

673 posted on 01/13/2003 1:39:15 PM PST by tngary
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To: Ken H
I went to the Channel 5 news website and didn't see any "latest report" about the dog being part Pitbull. Could you provide a link or title of the article you read?

Part II Of Exclusive Interview With Cookeville Police Officer Eric Hall "Moments later one of the dogs, a boxer/bull terrier mix named Patton, jumped from the car."

674 posted on 01/13/2003 5:47:10 PM PST by delacoert
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To: delacoert
I went to the Channel 5 news website and didn't see any "latest report" about the dog being part Pitbull. Could you provide a link or title of the article you read?

Part II Of Exclusive Interview With Cookeville Police Officer Eric Hall "Moments later one of the dogs, a boxer/bull terrier mix named Patton, jumped from the car."

That is a quote from Hall, hardly unbiased in this. He is spinning the story to make you believe the dog was something it wasn't. What if he said "Moments later one of the dogs, a Godzilla/Rodan mix named Patton, jumped from the car"? It still would not change Patton into a Godzilla/Rodan mix, just as him saying "boxer/bull terrrier mix" does not change Patton into a boxer/bull terrier.

675 posted on 01/13/2003 9:17:30 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty" not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: FreedomCalls
That is a quote from Hall, hardly unbiased in this.

Actually, it is a statement witten by a reporter, i.e., no quotes around it and no reference made to Hall or any other source. It is also spoke by a reporter in one of the video segments on the newschannel5 website, not as a quote of Hall, but as a fact. Maybe its wrong, I don't know, but other reporters write stories stating that the dog was a "1 1/2-year-old pit bull-boxer mix":

"I don't ever want to see this happen to anybody else. That's why we can't let this go away," said James Smoak, who owned the 1 1/2-year-old pit bull-boxer mix named Patton." Police shoot vacationing family's dog by mistake By JOHN GEROME, Associated Press Writer

'The governor said he was "disappointed" and "outraged" that the 1 1/2-year-old pit bull-boxer mix was killed as the Smoaks returned from a Nashville vacation to Saluda, N.C.' Tenn. governor apologizes to N.C. family over shooting of dog By COLIN FLY Associated Press Writer.

676 posted on 01/14/2003 8:31:22 AM PST by delacoert
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To: optimistically_conservative
"We have had quite a few incidents like this . . . when safety has been at risk," Bank said. "So we're excited about the training because the training will allow the officers to understand when they need to worry and when they don't.

"Our animal control officers haven't had to shoot a dog in the past 10 years. The training is going to be a really positive, wonderful thing."

Doesn't the juxtaposition of the above two statements beg the question: Is police training regarding shooting people equally defective? If animal control officers had ZERO situations where deadly force was required against a dog, one wonders if a similar goal regardin police chases, etc. would reduce -perhaps eliminate - fatalities.

677 posted on 01/14/2003 2:53:37 PM PST by eno_
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To: optimistically_conservative
"Remember, at this time, the troopers on the scene were still under the FALSE impression that a felony may have been committed, and were acting accordingly."
678 posted on 01/14/2003 3:04:39 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: cinFLA
Ahhh, correcting Lt. Jerry Andrews' quote I see... (c;
679 posted on 01/14/2003 3:54:25 PM PST by optimistically_conservative
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To: eno_
Is police training regarding shooting people equally defective? ... one wonders if a similar goal regardin police chases, etc. would reduce -perhaps eliminate - fatalities.

My response -> (click me)

P.S. Some others that seem appropriate ... (1) (2)

680 posted on 01/14/2003 4:26:50 PM PST by optimistically_conservative
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To: optimistically_conservative
Some people think high-speed chases make good TV. But many people think they make really stupid-ass public safety policy. Do you really think cops have nothing to learn regarding the use of dangerous tactics and deadly force? That article about dealing with dogs sure indicates otherwise.
681 posted on 01/14/2003 6:36:55 PM PST by eno_
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To: eno_
I'm not sure where this is leading. I'd rather the police buy a few helicopters and break off a high speed pursuit as soon as the helicopter can get in position to pursue. Let the cars fall back and use the radio to stay close enough should the perp bail. That's not always feasible for smaller town budgets, but that's my preference.

Do you really think cops have nothing to learn regarding the use of dangerous tactics and deadly force?

I think police should always be in the learning process and especially in how new technologies can be used to reduce the use of deadly force.

I think neighborhoods policing themselves and neighborhood policing would go a long way toward reducing law enforcement use of deadly force.

682 posted on 01/14/2003 7:07:14 PM PST by optimistically_conservative
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To: optimistically_conservative
I think you could do better simply by firing every cop that WANTS to wear a ninja suit and break down people's doors. Such people should not be allowed anywhere near the job of policing. The other thing that would help would be to just go out and pick up every known perp with a default warrant. This is a big "Duh!" Most of the worst repeat offenders are already arrestable. But then, of course, crime would plummet and we would only need half (or less) of the police we have.
683 posted on 01/15/2003 4:05:42 AM PST by eno_
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To: delacoert; FreedomCalls; Swordmaker; keri
Here's something that I came across at "The Tennessean" news site from 01/14/03.

The article says it is Officers Hall's police report from 01/01/03. I boldened the portion that is relevant to my point.

Here is the quote from Hall regarding the dog shooting:

"Suddenly, a dog jumped from the suspects' vehicle, singled me out from the other officers, and charged toward me, growling in an aggressive manner. I yelled at the dog to get back but it attempted to circle me to attack, so I felt I had no other option but to protect myself.

Notice that Officer Hall did not claim that the dog actually attacked or lunged at him.

Neither did he claim that the dog actually circled him.

He only said that it "attempted to circle me to attack."

If Hall believed that the dog was lunging at him, he would have said so since that would be a major point in his defense.

I conclude that whatever it is the dog is doing on the video in the last moments, Officer Hall is saying he believed it was in preparation for an attack.

Any thoughts?

http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/03/01/27645288.shtml

684 posted on 01/15/2003 5:04:42 AM PST by Ken H
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To: All
Here's the link: http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/03/01/27645288.shtml
685 posted on 01/15/2003 5:09:04 AM PST by Ken H
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To: optimistically_conservative
I'd rather the police buy a few helicopters and break off a high speed pursuit as soon as the helicopter can get in position to pursue.

Speaking as a former worker for the City of Atlanta Police Helicopter Squad (the old version, before Maynard Jackson destroyed it), I don't think that would work. Even a big city can afford only a few copters, and given their range and turnaround time, they can't be ready to go at all times. They can only participate in a few chases -- when our guys got involved it was a big deal. Then you have the problems of weather . . . .

And of course, once you publicize the fact that your policy is not to pursue, EVERYBODY runs.

686 posted on 01/15/2003 5:30:21 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . ready on the right . . .)
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To: delacoert; Swordmaker; keri; FreedomCalls; dtel; eno_
From the Channel 5 news site, quoting from their interview with Officer Hall.

Here is how Hall described what happened next.

"As the dog came out, he came right at me. It was like a pitbull and it still came as I backed up. Then something happened after that."

Nothing else about the dog's actions is said by Hall in this article.

I guarantee you one thing, if I ever shot a dog who started to lunge at me, I would be making that point loud and clear every chance I got. I wouldn't say "something happened" or that the dog was attempting to move in such a way so that it could attack.

The claim that the video shows a dog either initiating an attack or commiting an attack is once again not backed up by Officer Hall's statements in this article.

http://216.247.183.73/news/0301/10/police_hall.htm

687 posted on 01/15/2003 6:44:44 AM PST by Ken H
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To: Ken H
Try again with link-- http://216.247.183.73/news/0301/10/police_hall.htm
688 posted on 01/15/2003 6:47:41 AM PST by Ken H
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To: Ken H
Here's the huge, vicious "pit bull" . . . not.

Supposed to be an American Bulldog - Boxer mix.

689 posted on 01/15/2003 6:52:14 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . ready on the right . . .)
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To: Ken H
I guarantee you one thing, if I ever shot a dog who started to lunge at me, I would be making that point loud and clear every chance I got. I wouldn't say "something happened" or that the dog was attempting to move in such a way so that it could attack.

If the only factor was the specific threat posed by the dog I'd tend to agree. However, when providing backup, the imperative is to protect the other officers from any and all threats. It is obvious to me that the specific threat of the dog attacking Hall himself was just a piece of the overall threat which was the disruption of control at the scene.

One could imagine that if the felony stop was legitimate, bad guys could have used the opportunity provided by the disruption to overwhelm a police officer.

Hall's decision to shoot was correct within the context of a legitimate felony stop. How was he supposed to know that it was not legit? The THCP dispatcher had set him up believe that carjacking/robbery suspects were being restrained. The THP troopers were in charge at the scene. He was providing backup. A dog is running into the middle scene and maybe attacking. It looks like a pit bull. A split second to decide.

690 posted on 01/15/2003 8:44:57 AM PST by delacoert
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To: Swordmaker
Your watch must have stopped. Better buy a timex
691 posted on 01/15/2003 8:48:05 AM PST by DeathfromBelow
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To: DeathfromBelow
Your watch must have stopped. Better buy a timex

Why? The entire unedited video is about 4 minutes and includes the cars moving on the road, the pullover, the extraction of the suspects from the car, the cuffing, the dog leaving, the dog being shot and the aftermath.

My watch has no problem.

692 posted on 01/15/2003 9:11:51 AM PST by Swordmaker
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To: keri
That is what I think also, I think that entire family could have easily been murdered if they had made one wrong move, did you see my post about the dog today, there will be meeting Friday, someone said this is the third dog that Eric Hall has murdered, he has a itchy finger. SCARY
693 posted on 01/15/2003 9:15:59 AM PST by mel
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To: delacoert
I agree with much of that post. It's entirely possible Hall acted within the guidelines of a felony stop procedure.

Hall's biggest problem, IMO, is the issue of public trust. Fairly or unfairly, he's the ogre at this point in the story. New facts may come out to change that, and the THP has yet to receive the same scrutiny.

Despite all that, I'm guessing his career in law enforcement is over. He shot an innocent family's pet dog and it's been seen on tape all over the US.

That is going to be very difficult to overcome.

694 posted on 01/15/2003 12:49:38 PM PST by Ken H
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To: AnAmericanMother
Anyone have a picture of the shooter? We need this guy permanently in the Internet's memory.
695 posted on 01/16/2003 10:57:07 AM PST by eno_
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To: Ken H
He shot an innocent family's pet dog and it's been seen on tape all over the US.

It's a worldwide story. If anything, the international press is even more down on the shooting. The U.S. press feeds at the police PR trough too much.

696 posted on 01/16/2003 10:59:02 AM PST by eno_
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Comment #697 Removed by Moderator

To: eno_
Anybody ever hear any followup on what happened to officer Hall? Did he skate, as usual? Or did something actually HAPPEN???
698 posted on 01/08/2004 9:06:43 PM PST by dcwusmc ("The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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,,


699 posted on 05/28/2005 1:04:55 PM PDT by ambrose (NEWSWEAK LIED .... AND PEOPLE DIED)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine

This thread is now 700 posts long!


700 posted on 06/11/2005 12:16:18 AM PDT by Triggerhippie (Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.)
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