Father who told off gang killed by sword blow

The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 01/14/2003 | Paul Stokes

[dighton]

A father who stood up to a gang terrorising his community bled to death after being slashed with a Samurai-style sword.

Robert Dunne, 31, a scaffolder, was attacked by youths outside a parade of shops near his home in daylight. He died after being struck once in the back by the weapon with a large, curved blade on Saturday afternoon.

Three teenagers, aged 14, 17, and 19, were being held for questioning last night at Dunning Road police station, Middlesbrough, after going there voluntarily with a solicitor.

Mr Dunne’s girlfriend Julie, by whom he has a nine-month-old son Liam, was being comforted by relatives.

Friends said Mr Dunne had been determined not to allow young thugs to ruin the lives of people in the tight-knit West Lane area of Middlesbrough.

Detectives are trying to establish a motive for the murder and it is known that he confronted a gang of local teenagers three months ago.

Paula Kay, 21, a shop assistant with an 18-week-old son, said the gang of five or six had made life miserable for two years as they roamed streets looking for trouble.

Mr Kay said: “I think they are involved in dealing drugs and I know Robert’s family hate that kind of thing. He stood up to them when they were causing trouble. He went outside and told them to calm down because there were younger kids about.

“Robert was being a good citizen and a friend to his neighbours. Now he has paid with his life.”

A shopkeeper, 31, who declined to be named for fear of reprisals, said the gang was “always full of drink, no matter what time it is. They shout abuse and throw stones at people’s cars.”

Mo Nomaz, 32, West Lane’s postmaster, who called police and an ambulance, said he saw a crowd around “a pool of blood. It was just horrific.”

He added: “This is the type of thing you see in Hollywood films, but you never think it will happen on your doorstep.”

[Screaming_Gerbil]

Where were the British Police?

I thought the logic of the gun banners was that you don't need to be armed because that is the job of the police.

If the police won't do their job, then they need to form a militia...

(I Wonder if there are any WW2 STEN guns still hidden away in people's attics or whatnot in England?).

[roadcat]

"You'd be much better off taking some fencing lessons, buying an epee, and sharping the tip. A well-trained fencer will beat any kendo practioner 95 out of 100 times. Plus, you can easily affix a cap or button to the tip, and no one would be the wiser that you were carrying the most deadly sword ever produced."

Hmmmn, no wonder my daughter is taking fencing lessons. Looks like my samurai sword won't intimidate her any longer.

[Happy2BMe]

"What a whacked-out world we live in."

Errr.... that occurred in England (wackyland - the sister of California, U.S.A.).

Not quite all of the U.S. has come to that.

I mention California due to it's being evolved into some other form of government apart from mainstream America.

For example, I have a friend that lives in Riverside, California (southern).

He had a neighbor whose truck had been stolen 3 or four times.

He started sleeping in the truck to catch the thief.

When the thief reappeared, a fight ensued and led into the property owner's back yard where the burglar was shot and killed.

The property owner is in prison.

The property owner begged for police protection and never got it, and when he had to resort to protecting his own property it got him life in prison.

The rest of the U.S. is not like California.

[wardaddy]

I agree.

[motzman]

(Sorry, All I know about sword fighting I watched from Conan the Barbarian type movies...).

This is a common misconception, based on what "looks good" in the movies.

As swords evolved, and firearms basically eliminated armor as a practical means of protection, European swords became lighter, smaller, and almost exclusively thrusting weapons. Contrary to popular belief, the rapier was a heavier weapon than what you'd think it to be, since almost all of the "three-musketeer" style movies we've seen mostly use practice blades attached to a rapier hilt. Bottom line is, a rapier is not as fast as it is in the movies.

An effective cutting weapon has to have some weight to the blade in order to produce any result rather than a superfical cut. It is extremely difficult, in fact unwise, to use a heavy blade in any other way than a direct attack (meaning you start out "aiming" at a specific target like the head, and end up at the same target) which is relatively a slow attack. As weapons became more refined, speed and technique became superior to brute force and "heavy" attacks. Additionally thrusting (puncture) wounds are far more deadly and usually incapacitate the victim much more quickly than cuts or slashes.

Which brings us to the epee, which is the modern derivation of the smallsword. It has a rigid (though not brittle) triangular shaped blade, with no sharp edges, and is used exclusively for thrusting. It is also a "point first" weapon, meaning that the point of the blade is constantly threating the target, and creates "distance" between combatants. It is also very light and quick, and much stronger than it looks.

Many people might believe that a "Conan" style sword or a katana would "cleave" through such a thin blade, but a fencer does not block an opponents blade; they parry (or deflect) the blade away. The angles dissapate the energy of the opponents attack while moving the blade away from the target.

Also remember, the fencers best weapons are his legs, which move the fencer forward and backward quickly and smoothly. A "Conan" style attacked would be easily moved away from, and the attacker would be left defenseless for a counterattack.

As for practical experience, I'll leave out the modern fencing sabre (my primary weapon) as it is not realistic. Modern fencing sabres are far too light to inflict any real damage with a cut, so I'll limit the following examples to Epee vs.:

1) Epee vs Katana - someone who is skilled with the bokken (practice katana) can be difficult to defeat with an epee, but in my experience the reach, speed, and thrusting advantage of the epee is usually too much for the kendo stundent to handle. Plus, in my experience, fencers have much better footwork, timing, and "sense of distance" than kendo students.

2) Epee vs Bo-- The Bo (staff) only can compete with the epee when it is used as a thrusting weapon, and even then it has the distinct disadvantage of being a blunt non-lethal weapon. The Bo might get in a shot due to it's length, but that's no consolation when the bo-weilder has a blade going through his chest, or head.

3)Epee vs Nunchaku ("nun-chuks")---No contest, if you have the nun-chuks you might as well run.

4)Epee vs. "double sticks" (Kali / Escrima)--An interesting matchup as a very good student of the sticks can possibly block the blade of the epee, and get a shot in. But then again, the sticks user has the disadvantge of distance and speed of the epee. They were entertaining sparring matches, but I wouldn't want to be using the sticks in real life.

To answer your other question, Seems the guy with a larger sword (like those big swords the Scotts swing) would decapitate the guy with the smaller sword., remember, to decapitate someone (which is almost impossible in a "dueling situation") you have to actually hit you're opponent first. Hence the name "fencing" which is a derivative of "defence". Those big swords weren't used to chop off anything, they were used to cleave through armor--which is why they went away as armor became irrelevant.

[EGPWS]

The rest of the U.S. is not like California.

No we aren't..but we're getting there.

[Coop]

Gee. How did I know that one of the very first posts would not show any sympathy for this man's murder, but instead mock the gun control laws of Britain??

[RogueIsland]

A well-trained fencer will beat any kendo practioner 95 out of 100 times.

More likely it will result in what the Japanese called "mutual slaying" (a very common occurance among Samurai). The fencer likely will be able to get in quickly for the first thrust, but in so doing he will leave himself open to a skilled kenjutsu practitioner.

In all likelihood, two skilled swordsmen in this scenario will end up injuring or killing each other.

[Guillermo]

If they realy want to stop this crap, they would take the perps and hang them, in the middle of the neighborhood, and keep them up there for about 5 days, so every thug can see the consequence of their actions.

[Semaphore Heathcliffe]

...which leads to the uncomfortable conclusion that, to ignore such an obvious solution, TPTB must be content to let law-abiding citizens twist while the animals roam freely. Then you get to the "why" part. Even more uncomfortable...

[Shooter 2.5]

We were doing fine in my fencing class until someone showed up with a couple of sabres. Unfortunately I had my regular fencing jacket and later I found out that I had bruises all over my chest.

That wasn't a problem until I went to bed that night and my wife spotted them. The bruises looked exactly like hickies.
I had a lot of explaining to do.

[rlwinston]

I am a student of Tai Chi style sword and the principles of fencing seem to apply to Tai Chi, But the Tai Chi sword also uses the edges for cuts to neck etc.

[yarddog]

I remember a famous skirmish in which John Mosby and 20 something of his men were surprised by around 100 very fine Vermont calvarymen.

Mosby, who was sleeping in a barn when they were surprised immediately lept on his horse and he noted the yankees were carrying sabers. As soon as he saw they were using sabers he knew his men would win. They each had four colt revolvers and according to Mosby, they had no more fear of the sabers than if they had been carrying cornstalks.

[Shooter 2.5]

I remember reading about that.

Later, Jesse James took on the same tactics. The gang appeared at a gambling hall and the host said when they took off their dusters, they were covered in firearms.

[motzman]

If you haven't yet, check out The Tao of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee. Much of Lee's "gung-fu" is based off of European fencing; i.e lines, distance, tempo, etc.

Also, modern sabre fencing is primarily a cutting weapon, although the point can be used effectively. Fencing is great training for any martial art because it ingraines proper distance into the student.

Years ago, when I studied JKD and other forms with Rick Tucci (Princeton Academy of Martial Arts) we were training with knives. Rick insisted that the classic fencing "retreat" would be ineffective in a knife fight since you can "move faster forward than backward".

I disagreed; he insisted on a demonstration. Even at a near-sprint, he could not catch me while while I retreated, and he left himself open to counterattack. After that incident, he said he was going to start taking fencing lessons...

[Dubh_Ghlase]

Time to terrorize the terrorists....

[thisiskubrick]

In Melboune, Australia the gangs use machetes. A few months ago a guy was hacked to death by a Vietnamese gang.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s603653.htm
"...Up to 15 young men carrying knives, swords and machetes hunted them down. The style of killing is a major concern to police, not least because gang members armed themselves, within minutes of leaving a nightclub, with an arsenal of weapons..."

[thisiskubrick]

I am probably totally ignorant, but if Tai Chi is that slo-mo stuff I see people practicing in the park, I don't know if that will save you from a screaming lunatic with a sword.

[Shooter 2.5]

When addressing to the *Bang_List, don't forget to type the *.

[archy]

...and according to Mosby, they had no more fear of the sabers than if they had been carrying cornstalks.

Confederate cavalry general Nathan Forrest was another horse soldier with little use for the saber, though he sometimes made use of captured Yankee swords. But he too preferred to put his trust in repeating handguns, in his case a pair of LeMat revolvers with nine .40 caliber balls in the cylinders of each, plus a 20-gauge shotgun built into the the revolver's cylinder axis, beneath the barrel. Up close, I imagine either was a particularly nasty surprise to some enthusiastic Yankee who put all his faith in his saber and all that practice he'd been given with it.

Forrest, however, hedged his bet: as one of those who'd gone from Tennessee to Texas during the 1836 fight for the independence of the Texian Republic, he also carried with him a Bowie knife, both a practical fighting tool and a reminder of his younger days there during that earlier campaign. It's not likely that he met James Bowie, who died during the Alamo fight in March of 1836, but it's not necessarily impossible, either.

In any event, he once killed one of his own officers who'd felt insulted and had shot the general, by gutting his attacker with a pen-knife. It's better left to the imagination what he might have accomplished with a weapon like a Bowie knife in hand, particularly on foot and in the dark....