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Time For Moderate Acceptance Has Passed
Self/FreeRepublic ^ | 1/25/2003 | MHGinTN

Posted on 01/25/2003 5:12:08 PM PST by MHGinTN

Aren’t most Americans moderate in their views, falling somewhere in the middle on the issue of abortion?

It is true that the acceptance quotient for the vast majority of Americans falls somewhere between the notions of ‘legal protection for all conceived individual human life’ and ‘legal protection for partial birth abortion’. I was once somewhere between the two ‘extremes’, but the truth offered from persons who had dug deeper into the science and issues regarding nascent human life awakened me from my comfortable slumber. The realization that awakened my sleeping brain was that ‘with tacit acceptance of in vitro fertilization and then the apparent necessity for some abortion, our society too quickly arrived at acceptance of --no, DEFENSE OF, by powerful political forces-- infanticide.’ Apparently, the retired Democrat Senator from New York has had a similar epiphany, since he has characterized partial birth abortion as infanticide.

After thirty years of 'somewhere in the middle', abortion has lead directly to the maximum cheapening of individual human life, now defending infanticide for convenience and profit. But is that really the maximum corruption of our founding principles regarding the unalienable right to life? Perhaps we can and will degenerate further. Let’s explore such a probability.

The straight-line course ahead, from our current inhumane reality, will embrace actors in Hollywood insinuating that ‘exploitation of embryonic life is needed to bolster unencumbered lives of worthy pursuit’ … a notion made palpable by deranged feminists and their political champions who have insisted that in order to be 'fully empowered' a woman must have a legal right to commit violence upon her conceived children. Through tacit acceptance for the extreme treatment of individual natal life --forceful withdrawal of life support; abortion-- it is assumed by the societal engineers that we will accept ‘conception of individual human lives and then killing those individuals for their body parts.’ That’s cannibalism.

Stricken Hollywood actors and power-crazed politicians, in order to convince you that exploitation of individual embryonic life is right, must arrange your tacit agreement that ‘killing and harvesting embryos is not the same as killing an individual.’ But the scientists they would employ and fund with your taxes to carry out this medical marvel already know the truth. Here's the key to clarifying their duplicitous reasoning: those seeking your tacit acceptance of embryonic exploitation must have you first agree to a blatant lie ... or worse, have you agree that these are individual human lives being exploited in their earliest stage of a less worthy lifetime, defining a higher purpose for these embryonic individuals, sustaining others who were not stripped of life support to harvest their body parts. The first level of agreement --that embryos are not individual humans-- is based on a calculated lie; the second descending level of agreement is acceptance of cannibalism based on the specious axiom that embryos are not human individuals existing in the normal stage of a human lifetime.

Regarding the specious arguments of nihilist, I've given up addressing directly the bloviations of leftist dead-souls. Instead, allow me to elucidate the slippery slope many faithful people warned of way back when the outrage over in vitro fertilization was squelched ... a downward slope upon which we are now accelerating.

Having lost our hold on the goodness of supporting life (the humane necessity of life support), exploitation of nascent life is already a reality. The fetal tissue harvesting industry, with more than a billion dollars in business receipts each year, already influences ‘when a woman ought to have the abortion she seeks’ since the later differentiation of tissues makes ‘later rather than earlier’ killing and harvesting of the fetus more desirable to those who will profit from the killing. But that's just the beginning of the horror: 1) embryonic stem cell exploitation now demands the conception and killing of untold numbers of embryos; 2) therapeutic cloning is based on the in vitro fertilization/conception of human life, with killing and harvesting as the goal when the embryo has differentiated sufficiently to make specific target-cell identification reliable. Both of these 'scientific advances' require our nation to accept the specious notion that an individual human life doesn't begin with at least first cell division (onset of mitosis). The second methodology requires that you accept the wholesale exploitation of human life by conceiving it then killing it, harvesting the body parts.

Having read this far, some will insist, “But an embryo in a petri dish is not the same as an implanted embryo, not the same as a fetus, not the same as a born child, not the same as … “, yet the very science now hurrying to exploit embryonic life is convinced an embryo IS an individual human lifetime begun. “Outrageous assertion”, some will say. Let the goals of these scientific pursuits prove the case.

First, let us examine the goal of in vitro fertilization. With this procedure, a female gamete is fertilized by a male gamete (gametes are the ‘sex cells’ of the adult male or female). Once cell division is evidenced and the embryo reaches a desired number of body parts (the embryonic stem cells), the individual embryo is placed into the uterus of the target woman (and in most cases, several individual embryos are implanted at the same time, ‘running the odds’ so to speak; if ‘too many’ achieve life support, the attending medical personnel will advise on aborting one or more, to improve the odds for the escaping survivor).

The technician watching the product of fertilization (the conceptus) in the ‘petri dish’ is looking for cell division, to assure that an individual life has begun to express, to grow … the technician implants only the embryo proven to be building her/his individual body!

Additionally, the technician must achieve this transfer from ‘petri dish’ to human uterus at a specific stage in cell division, a specific stage in the lifetime already begun in a dish; if they try implanting too early, the embryo will not have the sticky coating it creates which allows for attachment to the uterine wall. Timing is crucial, timing that is based on proven growth processes of an individual human life. [If you’re wondering, this continuum concept of individual human existence is the exact same reasoning regarding the onset of puberty --for example, as a normal stage in individual human development. The scientist views individual human life as a continuum, having a beginning at conception and first cell division, and continuing through a myriad of differentiations and organ expressions.]

Let us turn now to cloning, for the methodology of a technician seeking to clone life has much in common with the in vitro fertilization process.

The clone is a genetic duplicate of a parent DNA donor. The in vitro fertilization technician conceives by bringing male and female gametes together, thus achieving the contribution of 23 chromosomes from female and 23 chromosomes from male, resulting in a conceptus having the normal 46 chromosomes. The clone technician seeks to use a mature female gamete from which the chromosomal nuclear ball has been removed and the 46 chromosome nuclear material of the ‘adult donor’ is inserted. [‘Adult donor’ refers to an organism with the normal compliment of 46 chromosomes, not to the age of the donor. In some procedures, the product of male/female conception is stripped of the 46 resulting chromosomes prior to first cell division, and the 46 chromosomes of the donor are inserted.]

If the cloning technician seeks to fully reproduce the genetic donor, the conceptus is observed for evidence of cell division, then, just as with in vitro fertilization/reproduction, the embryo is inserted into a woman’s uterus for continued life support … life support for a proven individual human that is a genetic duplicate of the donor, with none of the ovum donor’s chromosomes. [There is ‘from-the-female’ DNA material in the de-nucleated ovum, associated with the mitochondria units of the ovum, but developmental characteristics of the newly conceived individual will follow the parent chromosomal route through growth and development. This is the complicated ‘stuff’ too rigorous for discussion in a short essay.]

If, instead of reproduction for a fully expressed parent donor, the technician desires ‘therapeutic cloning’, the embryo is not implanted in a woman’s life supporting body; life support in the ‘petri dish’ is provided until a desired stage of cell differentiation is achieved and then the embryo is harvested for the desired tissue, killing the individual human life conceived for a tissue specific cloning purpose.

With first cell division, the newly conceived human life is constructing its own ‘space capsule’ (the placental bubble and the fluid that inflates it) and its own individual body and blood. The woman in whom an embryo resides does not construct the placenta or the body of the newly conceived individual human life. In fact, it is the newly conceived individual who commandeers life support from the woman’s body. It is the embryonic individual who initiates its own growth and development AND the life support from the woman’s body.

Cell division proves to the scientist that an individual human life is present.

The production of a sticky coating by the embryonic individual proves the desire for survival. Is that desire the same as the adult desire for shelter and sustenance? No, it is more akin to the hunger response, but it is unimpeachable evidence that an individual life exists. Is that life human? … If the parents are human, that’s always the case. If the embryonic individual did not construct the placental sac for its residence, the presence of a genetically foreign individual life in the woman’s body would cause her body to attack the ‘other’. This is yet another substantial proof of the individuality of the newly conceived human life and its miraculous effort to survive for a lifetime.

If our nation does not accomplish a paradigm shift, to hold individual human life as something not to be exploited for 'medical' purposes, the cannibalism of embryonic stem cell harvesting and therapeutic cloning will be our reality.

One further note: the ‘enlightened’ expect you to accept the notion that an embryo IS NOT an individual human life. That the scientist seeks to conceive 'designer' human life --with therapeutic cloning-- only strengthens the truth that they are conceiving an individual human life for exploitation and death. Giving tacit acceptance to a proven lie is bad enough, but to embrace cannibalism founded on such a lie is far beyond moral and ethical dilemmas. If we do not, at this critical juncture in our national life, accomplish a paradigm shift in the nation's perception regarding individual human life, two very unpleasant leviathans will devour the remains of our national goodness. Only God’s mercy will continue our life support as a nation should we slip further down the slippery slope without ascending back to the goodness of life support for all individual human life, repudiating the cannibalistic exploitation now looming in our future.


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; catholiclist; cloning; stemcells
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1 posted on 01/25/2003 5:12:08 PM PST by MHGinTN
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To: MHGinTN
bump for later read...
2 posted on 01/25/2003 5:23:55 PM PST by babygene (Viable after 87 trimesters)
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To: babygene
It is a little too long for a short essay, isn't it?
3 posted on 01/25/2003 5:34:10 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: blam; Alamo-Girl; backhoe; Woahhs; Victoria Delsoul; William Wallace; f.Christian; Bryan; ...
Ping-a-ling-a-ling
4 posted on 01/25/2003 5:52:26 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Askel5
Ping-a-ling, ol' girl.
5 posted on 01/25/2003 6:34:12 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Having read this far, some will insist, “But an embryo in a petri dish is not the same as an implanted embryo, not the same as a fetus, not the same as a born child, not the same as ….

Yes, exactly, MHGinTN. And yet -- the only reason the "harvesters" of embryos are interested in harvesting embryos is because embryos clearly embody the principle of Life, yet at the same time are conveniently in no position to object when they are being grotesquely abused, wantonly sacrificed, for purposes that do not seem to support, sustain, or advance Life.

Those of the Christopher Reeves school in this debate will argue that quality of life is what finally matters. God bless Mr. Reeves (and I hear that he has made enormous strides lately in recovering lost function, at least in swimming pools), but I have to say there can be no quality of life absent a life in which to mediate it. That is, life itself comes necessarily prior to the issue of quality of life.

Somehow, this suggests to me that the sacrifice of the preborn to restore lost function to the already living is a disastrously wrong and evil choice. For folks of the Mr. Reeves school of argument must hold that the sacrifices required to restore an injured human person to prior functionality justifies the destruction of "incoming life", which I don't know how to understand except as a decision to regard a human life as a means to an end, and not a end in itself.

But this goes to the very heart of Western moral philosophy, to one of the two greatest "sins" man can ever commit: No human being can be used as a means to an end. Every human being is a sacred end in himself.

This is Culture War! my friend. And it has recently been joined in a big way. Stay tuned, and keep up the excellent work.

Thanks for the excellent analysis, MHGinTN, and for the ping.

6 posted on 01/25/2003 6:35:51 PM PST by betty boop
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To: MHGinTN
It is a little too long for a short essay, isn't it?
Like the porridge, chair and bed...Just right.
7 posted on 01/25/2003 6:39:35 PM PST by philman_36
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To: betty boop
Thank you, bb.

In CR's case, he would have you agree with him that these are individual human lives being exploited in their earliest stage of a 'less worthy lifetime'; he would plead for a 'higher purpose' for these embryonic individuals, to sustain others who were not stripped of life support to harvest their body parts.

8 posted on 01/25/2003 6:43:57 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
An afterthought...Would there even be a story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears if Goldilocks had been aborted? How about Hansel and Gretel, The Little Dutch Boy and so many others.
I think not.
9 posted on 01/25/2003 6:46:38 PM PST by philman_36
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To: MHGinTN
Bumpin' for later!!!!
10 posted on 01/25/2003 6:47:59 PM PST by Bradís Gramma (Only YOU can free Snuggles $5 a month is all it takes)
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To: MHGinTN
Cell division proves to the scientist that an individual human life is present.

One further note: the 'enlightened' expect you to accept the notion that an embryo IS NOT an individual human life. That the scientist seeks to conceive 'designer' human life --with therapeutic cloning-- only strengthens the truth that they are conceiving an individual human life for exploitation and death.

That's right. Reproductive and therapeutic cloning are both an abuse and manipulation of innocent human life. They are immoral and should be rejected.

11 posted on 01/25/2003 7:05:36 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: fporretto; DugwayDuke; Clint N. Suhks
Ker-ping
12 posted on 01/25/2003 7:35:18 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: philman_36
Goldilocks? Hansel and Gretel?... What about my beautiful real granddaughter ... if my first wife's Mother had aborted her, then there would not be my son, or my ... Sobering, but my first wife's Mother was a saint.
13 posted on 01/25/2003 7:45:49 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
bump
14 posted on 01/25/2003 7:49:49 PM PST by foreverfree
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To: MHGinTN
Hey MHGinTN,

Great job! Thanks for the ping.

Regarding your para: If our nation does not accomplish a paradigm shift, to hold individual human life as something not to be exploited for 'medical' purposes, the cannibalism of embryonic stem cell harvesting and therapeutic cloning will be our reality. I fully agree and want to add two things:

First, a plea for all Pro-Lifers and Christians to visit Christian Patriots For Life , and read THE MISSING KEY OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT

Second is regarding your prophetic warning quoted above: I participated at the American Life League’s conference in July 2002 and attended Dr. Bernard Nathanson’s symposium where he described some of the “objectives” for genetic research. Much of what he spoke of is at Priests for Life . It confirms your post and is very scary. Isle of Dr. Moreau scary. He also has a tape entitled: The Genetic Auschwitz (1998). This is SERIOUS folks.

God Save The Republic

15 posted on 01/25/2003 8:10:08 PM PST by cpforlife.org
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To: MHGinTN
In CR's case, he would have you agree with him that these are individual human lives being exploited in their earliest stage of a 'less worthy lifetime'; he would plead for a 'higher purpose' for these embryonic individuals

Then I gather CR wishes to stand in God's shoes. So to speak. So as to judge the merits of worthiness as between individuals, and to sacrifice the "lesser interest" to the "greater."

Geez. But isn't that the very formula used to justify totalitarianism, in all of its forms?

16 posted on 01/25/2003 8:10:28 PM PST by betty boop
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To: MHGinTN
Thanks for the heads up!
17 posted on 01/25/2003 8:18:08 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MHGinTN
Yes, just right - a taut fit - and we are fittingly taught, come to think of it, thank you. Hope to see the next version in an additional publication.

Just the right introduction, use, and frequency of the word "cannibalism," too.

It's not enough that we are engaging in human sacrifice to our lust-gods, just as the people in ancient, twisted cultures used to do, we now begin to nourish our bodies by those sacrificed.
18 posted on 01/25/2003 8:24:17 PM PST by unspun (Compassionate Conservatism - beats the alternatives in either case.)
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To: MHGinTN
I was trying to be lighthearted on a very serious subject.
Sorry to have failed in the attempt. My apologies.
19 posted on 01/25/2003 8:39:36 PM PST by philman_36
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To: betty boop
This is Culture War! my friend.

I know what you mean, but calling it a culture war is not really accurate. What is being called "culture war" os only one front (although a major one) in an overall war. We are in a spiritual war. If you are not already familiar with it, get a copy of the written word of God (aka the Bible) and read Ephesians 6:11-17. It gives the basic background that explains why such a subject as this even exists in our society. Make no mistake about it. There is an evil at work here that could only have been conceived by a being that passionately hates human life.

20 posted on 01/25/2003 8:39:38 PM PST by Aarchaeus
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To: MHGinTN
Prolife from the moment of conception BUMP!
21 posted on 01/25/2003 8:43:16 PM PST by EternalVigilance (abort NARAL!)
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To: Aarchaeus
I have no argument to advance against what you have written. For the simple reason that I agree with you.

I know that the motivation of the "culture war" comes from an evil source. I also know that this source is the implacable enemy of Life, especially human life. This source is "the father of lies" and the great, eternal slanderer and calumniator of mankind.

But as to God's plan at this juncture, of that I know nothing. But I figure He knows what He's doing. So I only pray for His mercy, His pardon, His Grace, on all of us human beings, who are His children.

22 posted on 01/25/2003 8:59:34 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
But as to God's plan at this juncture, of that I know nothing. But I figure He knows what He's doing. So I only pray for His mercy, His pardon, His Grace, on all of us human beings, who are His children.

So true. What is going on here in America make it so abundantly clear to me that He is our only hope. It has gotten to the point that when I see a bumper sticker or any kind of sign that says "God bless America" it really disturbs me. It should be "God have mercy on America".

23 posted on 01/25/2003 9:18:45 PM PST by Aarchaeus
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To: philman_36
Actually, you made a very poignant statement. It immediately evoked from me sadness at the thought of all those millions of American children who never got the chance to enjoy the wonder of fairie tales and lilting poems, never held a dolly or pushed a toy around. How very bankrupt our nation will be when the rush to exploit individual human life in the embryonic stage of a begun lifetime is more impotant than supporting that life until we hear the laughter of those children, not to mention the unimaginable gifts they could've given to our science, arts, etc.
24 posted on 01/25/2003 9:44:52 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Aarchaeus
More to the point, Aarchaeus, he hates God's love for us and His grace toward us. BTW, I think bb is very familiar with the scriptures.
25 posted on 01/25/2003 9:47:08 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Aarchaeus
It has gotten to the point that when I see a bumper sticker or any kind of sign that says "God bless America" it really disturbs me. It should be "God have mercy on America".

Well, I do know that feeling, from my more cynical reflections on the current state of things. But in the end, that's a really depressing thought, seen from a narrow perspective IMHO. What God sees may well be very different. Consider this: America is probably the most Christian nation on the face of the earth right now. And America is trying to stand up for civilized order, against all odds as it seems.

So I'll take this opportunity to disagree with you, in the spirit of Christian hope and love: May God bless America.

26 posted on 01/25/2003 9:48:09 PM PST by betty boop
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To: MHGinTN
Erata ... impotant = important ... sorry for the sluggish fingers.
27 posted on 01/25/2003 9:49:28 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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Perhaps I should have used corrigendum since I can spell that one ... the proverbial Oops!
28 posted on 01/25/2003 9:59:15 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
killing and harvesting of the fetus human being, child, life, soul...

...is murder!

29 posted on 01/25/2003 10:07:04 PM PST by Clint N. Suhks
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To: betty boop
I know that the motivation of the "culture war" comes from an evil source.

Conservatives are in a “culture war”, God help us.

30 posted on 01/25/2003 10:12:35 PM PST by Clint N. Suhks
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To: ConservativeLawyer
Ping
31 posted on 01/25/2003 10:21:34 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: eaglebeak
PING. Try this on for size ...
32 posted on 01/25/2003 10:23:34 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: skr; sitetest
Ping-a-ling
33 posted on 01/25/2003 10:39:00 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Texas Eagle
Ping ... not trolling for comments, just offer tidbits
34 posted on 01/25/2003 10:48:41 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Polycarp
Ping, Brian, while you're resting between posts.
35 posted on 01/25/2003 11:54:44 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN; *Catholic_list; .45MAN; AKA Elena; al_c; american colleen; Angelus Errare; Antoninus; ...
Well done!

bump ping

while you're resting between posts.

;-)

(Migraine headache, can't sleep, might as well FReep.)

36 posted on 01/25/2003 11:59:06 PM PST by Polycarp (Taglines should not automatically reload on non related threads...can someone fix this?)
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To: MHGinTN
BTTT!!!!!!
37 posted on 01/26/2003 3:04:16 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: dansangel
PING
38 posted on 01/26/2003 8:15:42 AM PST by .45MAN (May God bless them all!!!!!)
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To: MHGinTN
IF an unborn baby is NOT human, just a bunch of 'generic, could be ANYTHING' cells, then WHY is there such an interest in the harvest/torture of them by those who are walking/talking/'living'/crippled 'humans'?

WHY is there not a push to harvest PIG cells, JACKASS cells or even MONKEY cells? Why wouldn't the cells from THOSE unborns be acceptable?

I'm convinced that those who are 'moderates' and 'pro-choice' have those 'generic, could be ANYTHING cells' passing as brain matter.

39 posted on 01/26/2003 9:47:28 AM PST by mommadooo3
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To: Polycarp; All
When I posted this scrabbled essay yesterday, I meant only for the issues to be aired for discussion. So many freepers and lurkers have sent e-mail and freepmail suggesting that I polish the thing and seek periodical publication, I've decide to sort of do that! I've polished the essay in syntax and syllogistic flow. Now, if any of you wish to copy and send to a local club paper or bulletin, or wish to copy and use it through a Church program or publication, or even send it to your elected representatives (very important to do this if you can) please feel free do so, and use you name if you like ... the important thing is, if you agree that decades of abortion on demand have jaded our society to the extent that we now will embrace cannibalism in a most subtle form, help air these truths with our fellow Americans and pray to awaken our nation to, at least, our previous goodness.

Below is the fourth edition of the essay, polished as much as I care to do it. We did this with the 'letters to the editor' project for the 2000 election, let's give this a try, to stop embryonic stem cell and cloning efforts that conceive individual human life for body parts.
********

Time For Moderate Acceptance Has Passed

Aren’t most Americans moderate in their views, falling somewhere in the middle on the issue of abortion?

Yes, the acceptance quotient for the vast majority of Americans falls somewhere between the notions of ‘legal protection for all conceived individual human life’ and ‘legal protection for partial birth abortion’. I was once somewhere between the two ‘extremes’, but the truth offered from persons who had dug deeper into the science and issues regarding nascent human life awakened me from my comfortable slumber. The realization that awakened my brain was that ‘with tacit acceptance of in vitro fertilization and then the apparent necessity for some abortion, our society too quickly arrived at acceptance of, no, DEFENSE OF, infanticide.’ Apparently, the retired Democrat Senator from New York, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, has had a similar epiphany, since he has characterized partial birth abortion as infanticide.

After thirty years of 'somewhere in the middle', legalized abortion has lead directly to the maximum cheapening of individual human life. We have Americans defending infanticide for convenience and profit. But is that really the maximum corruption of our founding principles regarding the unalienable right to life? Perhaps we can and will degenerate further. Let’s explore such a probability.

A straight-line course from our current inhumane reality will have us embracing actors in Hollywood who insinuate that ‘exploitation of embryonic life is needed to bolster unencumbered lives of worthy pursuit’ … a notion made palpable by deranged feminists and their political champions who have insisted that in order to be 'fully empowered' a woman must have a legal right to commit violence upon her conceived children. Because of our tacit acceptance for the extreme treatment of individual prenatal life --forceful withdrawal of life support, abortion-- it is assumed by the societal engineers that we will accept conception of individual human lives and then killing those individuals for their body parts. That’s cannibalism.

Stricken Hollywood actors and power-crazed politicians, in order to convince you that exploitation of individual embryonic life is right, must arrange your tacit agreement that killing and harvesting embryos is not the same as killing an individual. But the scientists they would employ and fund with your taxes, to carry out this medical marvel, already know the truth. Here's the key to their reasoning: those seeking your tacit acceptance of embryonic exploitation must have you first agree to a blatant lie ... or worse, have you agree that these are individual human lives being exploited in earliest stage of their less worthy life, defining a higher purpose for these embryonic individuals, to sustain others who were not stripped of life support to harvest their body parts. The first level of agreement --that embryos are not individual humans-- is based on a calculated lie; the second descending level of agreement is acceptance of cannibalism based on that same specious axiom that embryos are not human individuals existing in the normal stage of a human lifetime.

[You might leave a portion out --from star to star-- if you're placing under your name.] *Regarding the specious arguments of nihilist, I've given up addressing directly the bloviations of leftist dead-souls. Instead,* permit me to elucidate the slippery slope many faithful people warned of way back when the outrage over in vitro fertilization was squelched ... a downward slope upon which we are now accelerating.

We’ve lost our hold on the goodness of supporting life (the humane necessity of life support). Now, exploitation of nascent life is a reality: the fetal tissue harvesting industry, with more than a billion dollars in business receipts each year, already influences when a woman ought to have the abortion she seeks because fetal tissue differentiation makes ‘later rather than earlier’ killing and harvesting of the fetus more desirable to those who will profit from the killing. But that's just the beginning of the horror: 1) embryonic stem cell exploitation now demands the conception and killing of untold numbers of embryos; 2) therapeutic cloning is based on the in vitro fertilization/conception of human life, with killing and harvesting as the goal when the embryo has differentiated sufficiently to make specific target-cell identification reliable. Both of these 'scientific advances' require our nation to accept the specious notion that an individual human life doesn't begin with at least first cell division (onset of mitosis).

Having read this far, some will insist, “But an embryo in a petri dish is not the same as an implanted embryo, not the same as a fetus, not the same as a born child, not the same as … “, yet the very science now hurrying to exploit embryonic life is convinced an embryo IS an individual human lifetime begun. “Outrageous assertion”, some will say. Okay, let the goals of their scientific pursuit speak for the scientists.

First, let us examine the goal of in vitro fertilization. In this procedure, a female gamete is fertilized by a male gamete (gametes are the ‘sex cells’ of the adult male or female). Once cell division is evidenced and the embryo reaches a desired number of body parts (the embryonic stem cells), the individual embryo is placed into the uterus of the target woman (and in most cases, several individual embryos are implanted at the same time, ‘running the odds’ so to speak; if too many achieve life support, the attending medical personnel will advise on aborting one or more, to improve the odds for the escaping survivor).

The technician watching the product of fertilization (the conceptus) in the ‘petri dish’ is looking for cell division, to assure that an individual life has begun to express itself, to grow … the technician implants only the embryo proven to be building her or his individual body!

Additionally, the technician must achieve this transfer from petri dish to human uterus at a specific stage in cell division, a specific stage in the lifetime already begun in a dish; if they try implanting too early, the embryo will not have the sticky coating it creates which allows for attachment to the uterine wall. Timing is crucial, timing that is based on proven growth processes of an individual human being's continuum of life. [If you’re wondering, this continuum concept of individual human existence is the exact same reasoning regarding the onset of puberty, for example, as a normal stage in individual human lifetime. Yes, the scientist views individual human life as a continuum, having a beginning at conception and first cell division, and continuing through a myriad of differentiations and organ expressions that could last for decades.]

Let us turn now to cloning, for the methodology of a technician seeking embryonic stem cells or a technician seeking to clone life has much in common with the in vitro fertilization process.

The clone is a genetic duplicate of a parent DNA donor. The in vitro fertilization technician conceives by bringing male and female gametes together, thus achieving the contribution of 23 chromosomes from female and 23 chromosomes from male, resulting in a conceptus having the normal 46 chromosomes. With similar goal of a conceptus in mind, the clone technician seeks to use a mature female gamete from which the chromosomal nuclear ball has been removed and the 46 chromosome nuclear material of the ‘adult donor’ is inserted. [‘Adult donor’ refers to an organism with a normal compliment of 46 chromosomes, not to the age of the donor. In some procedures, the product of male/female conception is stripped of the 46 resulting chromosomes prior to first cell division, and the 46 chromosomes of the donor are inserted.]

If the cloning technician seeks to fully reproduce the genetic donor, the conceptus is observed for evidence of cell division, then, just as with in vitro fertilization reproduction, the embryo is inserted into a woman’s uterus for continued life support … life support for a proven individual human being that is a genetic duplicate of the donor, with none of the ovum donor’s chromosomes. [There is ‘from-the-female’ DNA material in the de-nucleated ovum, associated with the mitochondria units of the ovum, but developmental characteristics of the newly conceived individual will follow the parent chromosomal route throughout growth and development. This is the complicated ‘stuff’ too rigorous for discussion in a short essay.]

If, instead of reproduction for a fully expressed parent donor, the technician desires ‘therapeutic cloning’, the embryo is not implanted in a woman’s life supporting body. Instead, life support is provided in the petri dish until a desired stage of cell differentiation is achieved. Then the embryo (or, if they could keep the individual alive long enough, a fetus) is harvested for the desired tissue, killing the individual being conceived for a tissue specific cloning purpose.

With first cell division, the newly conceived human life is constructing its own space capsule (the placental bubble and the fluid that inflates it) and its own individual body and blood. The woman in whom an embryo resides does not construct the placenta or the body of the newly conceived individual human life. In fact, it is the newly conceived individual who commandeers life support from the woman’s body ... it is the embryonic individual who initiates its own growth and development AND its life support from the woman’s body.

Cell division proves to the scientist that an individual human being is present. But there are other telling phenomena which prove the case that an individual human being is present as an embryo. Following are two.

The production of a sticky coating by the embryonic individual proves the desire to survive. Is that the same as the adult desire for shelter and sustenance? No, it is more akin to the hunger response, but it is unimpeachable evidence, to a scientist, that an individual being exists. Is that being, human? … If the parents are human, that’s always the case. Finally, if the embryonic individual did not construct the placental sac for its residence, the presence of a genetically foreign individual life in the woman’s body would cause her body to attack the ‘other’.

Why is it important to prove that an embryo is an individual human being? Because embryonic stem cell harvesting and therapeutic cloning are cannibalism.

The ‘enlightened’ expect you to accept the notion that an embryo is not an individual human being. Yet the scientist seeks to conceive 'designer' individual human life --with therapeutic cloning-- and the goal of the scientist bears witness to the truth that they are conceiving then for a time supporting the life of a unique human being. Giving tacit acceptance to a proven lie is bad enough --and we’ve done this for thirty years-- but to embrace cannibalism founded on such a lie is far more degenerate than breaching a moral or ethical dilemma.

If we do not accomplish a paradigm shift in the nation's perception regarding individual human life, two very unpleasant leviathans --embryonic stem cell exploitation and therapeutic cloning-- will devour what remains of our national goodness.

Only God’s mercy will continue our life support, as a nation, should we slide further down the slippery slope. We must somehow ascend back to the goodness of supporting all individual human life and repudiate the cannibalistic exploitation now looming as our future.

40 posted on 01/26/2003 1:06:56 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Bump
41 posted on 01/26/2003 1:07:23 PM PST by Siobhan (+ Kyrie eleison. Christe eleison. Kyrie eleison +)
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To: uncowed
Ker-ping
42 posted on 01/26/2003 1:15:25 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Most americans are going to stay in the middle.

If abortion in the first trimester is murder, you must punish the people involved as murderers.

If an 18 year old college freshman gets pregnant, by her 17 years old boyfriend, she borrows money from her college roommate to have the abortion. Within a week of learning she is pregnant, her parents give her 21 year old brother the car keys to take her and the boyfriend to the underground clinic, he drives them, a doctor and nurse perform the abortion, right there let's see what can be done. The girl and the doctor and nurse are charged with murder in the first degree. The girl is charged with statutory rape of her boyfriend, the parents, the brother, the roomate, the boyfriend are charged as accessories, and under manditory minimum sentencing laws, everybody goes away for a long time. All 8 of them in the poke for years and years.

The american people aren't as a rule willing to do that. That is why there is the mushy middle.

I am not willing to send 16 year old girls to prison for life for abortion. I want laws to ban PBA, laws that require parental consent, that in both cases punish abortionists severely for not following these guidelines, but I am not willing to put the family in jail for a decade, and that is why abortion still rips this country apart.

43 posted on 01/26/2003 1:22:51 PM PST by dogbyte12
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To: dogbyte12
Not one time have you ever read a post where I have called for first degree murder charges regarding an aborting female or someone taking her to an abortion clinic. You have constructed an absurd strawman solely for the purpose of dissonance in this discussion. You reveal much about yourself when you try such stealth tactics in your conscious effort to create confusion rather than clarity, sew misdirection instead of pointing toward reasonable alternatives to our current morass.
44 posted on 01/26/2003 1:34:39 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: dogbyte12
If abortion in the first trimester is murder, you must punish the people involved as murderers. This specious reasoning is akin to asserting that 'if rape is criminalized then rapists will be criminals, so don't make criminals by banning rape'. Do laws criminalizing rape make rape disappear? NO. Do rapists get prosecuted? Yes. Must we monitor the movements of every citizen, to insure that no one commits rape? ... Get the gist? You reason in calculated way ... calculated to bolster the notion that abortion is a reality, that the society needs some rape, therefore don't make any move to ban abortion, even if clear exceptions to the law would be written into the legislative document.
45 posted on 01/26/2003 1:41:19 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
You don't call for first degree murder? Then abortion isn't murder? Please educate me.

That is the rub and you either face it or don't. If a 16 year old shoots somebody with a gun on impulse, they should get a stiffer sentence than somebody who after weeks of contemplation decides to abort their fetus, the impulse shooter should get more jail time?

I am not totally out of your camp btw. I hate abortion. I want such restrictions placed upon it, that it truly is the last and only resort.

I have a friend right now trying to adopt, and the home visits, paperwork, costs are just a mess. He has to wear a saint on his head, (which he nearly does anyways), just to be able to have half the rights that two teen-agers rutting in a car have and that is one factor as to why their are too many abortions.

I would be more than happy to ban abortion except in cases of rape or incest, with a streamlined adoption process that makes potential adoptive parents treated like criminals.

Until that point, we have the mess we are in. I curse the 60's for ever happening. I find it highly offensive that people think that they can just snuff out their progeny as easy as getting a wart removed.

Yet, I still don't think abortion is murder in the same regard as taking a gun, knife, or fists and killing somebody who was already born.

I am a bit sick of the crappy rhetoric from both sides. The Orwellian double speak such as "choice".(Does that mean the choice to procreate like a dog in heat, fail to use birth control, and dump your fetus in the trash like yesterday's refuse? Unborn baby is the equivalent of calling the living Undead corpses if you follow that logic.

We are in a mess in this country and there are no easy answers. Most people realize it. There is a crisis in morality, and you can try to legislate it, but good luck.

end of rant.

46 posted on 01/26/2003 1:51:17 PM PST by dogbyte12
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To: MHGinTN
abortion in the first trimester is murder, you must punish the people involved as murderers. This specious reasoning is akin to asserting that 'if rape is criminalized then rapists will be criminals, so don't make criminals by banning rape'. Do laws criminalizing rape make rape disappear? NO. Do rapists get prosecuted? Specious argument from you actually. Rape is rape. Murder is murder. I believe in punishing the perps. Either abortion is murder or it isn't. Period.

I think you want to have it both ways. I am just stating that you should follow the logical conclusion of your position. If you believe abortion is murder, punish it accordingly. If you believe it is more of a gray area than that, admit it, and say hello to those of us in the mushy middle.

47 posted on 01/26/2003 1:54:53 PM PST by dogbyte12
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To: dogbyte12
There is a continuum for most on this issue. Folks just apply it in different ways, and relatively few are quite able to admit that that is what they do, because it then gets messy. Of course, not having a continuum as you suggest leads to a regime for would tolerate in practice, nor should they.
48 posted on 01/26/2003 1:57:11 PM PST by Torie
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To: Torie
for = few
49 posted on 01/26/2003 1:58:31 PM PST by Torie
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To: dogbyte12
After thirty years of 'somewhere in the middle', legalized abortion has lead directly to the maximum cheapening of individual human life. We have Americans defending infanticide for convenience and profit. But is that really the maximum corruption of our founding principles regarding the unalienable right to life? Perhaps we can and will degenerate further.

Tacit acceptance leading from in vitro fertilization to partial birth infanticide proves the bankruptcy of continuing to lend moderate acceptance. We are now staring at cannibalism in the name of whatever you care to call it. I want to shift the perspective to life support for ALL individual human life. Above, you have a clear argument for why the embryo is a human being, from the perspective of science.

Laws set the parameters of what is taboo in a society. The Roe decision was not a new law written, it was a judicial fiat that unconstitutionally permitted wholesale assault on a class of individual human beings by protected serial killers. And that fiat was based on a series of outright lies!

We must awaken to the reason for setting taboos, because even an embryo no bigger than a grain of sugar is an individual human life. Is it acceptable to kill that individual for their body parts? If it is, that's cannibalism. I'm searching for a way to stop such cannibalism and the method I've settle with is to focus the debates on life support. I'll not address further the specious arguments of left-leaning dead-souls.

50 posted on 01/26/2003 2:31:49 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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