Posted on 03/12/2003 11:58:16 AM PST by Recovering_Democrat
CHECK IT OUT! RICK SANTORUM IS LAYING IT ON THE LINE!
As to will I again explaining why praying to dead people and other created beings is an act of worship, I've done it and done it. Just did it again, above. Denial is simply the typical RC diversion tactic. (Some are honest about it, though; as I've remarked, most are, except when they're doing the denial-dance at a Christian.)
Dan
Here's your accusation as to proof of my being holier-than-thou:
Mine is the Word of God.
To which you retort:
And mine would be . . . what . . . chopped liver?
I don't know what "yours" is. You have to read the context. Here's what you left out, the two sentences immediately before your excerpt:
You're guessing and repeating tradition. That'd be fine if this were a party game, but as it isn't, I must ask for authority.
Then I say, "Mine [i.e. my authority] is the Word of God." So I am saying that my judgment, my opinions, my guesses are worthless and not worth citing, I lean helplessly on the Word of God.
Did you misunderstand, miss the context? Or is that your idea of being "holier than thou"? If so... God grant increasing hoardes of "holier than thou's," all forsaking their own wisdom to depend on His Word alone!
Dan
Yes, as in, "Hey BibChr, would you help me?" Would you consider that statement an act of worship?
2. Do tell, to whom are the following clauses addressed?
* Be our safeguard...
"Hey, BibChr, be my safeguard at the office."
* ...do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast into Hell, Satan...
"By the power of God." The ultimate source of his authority is explicitly recognized.
Of course, it would be wise to enlist Michael's aid in battle against demons more than the aid of another Christian on earth, for example, since the Bible indicates that he has great power:
Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise."
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
Of course, we could pray directly to God, but we don't always have to pray directly to God. Sometimes we ask others to pray for us or request the aid of others. The Body of Christ is one body. We should act like it.
AND concerning those who (among countless other things) offer acts of worship to created beings. Look! I just did!
Sorry, no acts of worship in your example, just requests for aid which are no different than any other request of aid from another member of the Body of Christ.
Now show me where the Catholic Church teaches that dead people should be worshipped.
If we would, we would see (as I showed) that God would be repulsed at the notion of our seeking out the help of dead people or angels. And we'd see that we need to be born again (John 3) and reconciled to God by the blood of Christ alone applied by grace alone through our faith alone (Ephesians 1-2, Colossians 1). We'd see that, when this happens, we are clothed with the very righteousness of God Himself (Romans 3:20 — 5). And with that standing, we'd see that every one of us can and must offer prayers to God through our one and only Mediator and High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5, 6; Hebrews 4:15), and be assured of being heard (Hebrews 4:16).
The life of a freed son or daughter of God is so full of reasons for joy. This redeemed sinner commends Jesus Christ and God's Word to you as all-sufficient.
Yes!
I was quoting from my memory of an interview that I heard the Santorums give many months ago. The doctors did recommend an abortion; and the Santorums refused, choosing to carry the child as long as she could and cradling the baby after its birth until it died. It was powerful stuff.
I'm not going to argue with you about how far along she was (only she, the Senator, and the doctor know that information) but the implication, when I heard the two of them speak, was that she was nearer to term than not.
No, because people aren't invisible. They're compound substances of form and matter, soul and body. Angels are simple substances of pure form, pure intellect.
How about some Bible verses to back up your assertions?
2. Do you attribute to your living fellow-Christians the Divine attribute of omniscience, holding them able to divine and hear and understand the invisible, inaudible beamed-out thoughts of tens of thousands of Christians the world 'round at the same time?
No. Human beings aren't angels. Also, the ability to hear prayers does not require omniscience. Perhaps you were thinking of omnipresence? That is not required either, since angels exist in an atemporal sphere, aeviternity, which has no "before" or '"after."
3. In your beamed-out requests for your living fellow-Christians' prayers, do you includes words of adoration and vows of obedience and acts of reverence?
No need to beam them out. Aside from that, sometimes I offer words of adoration toward my wife and children.
Where do Catholics swear blind obedience to angels or other Christians?
I treat holy people reverently, and Mary, the greatest saint, especially.
As to being ready for the spiritual war, as in all spiritual matters I find God's Word and the Lord Jesus Christ more than sufficient. In that Word, I read this:
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord [sc. the Lord Jesus Christ — not some angel and/or his prayers] and in the power of His might. 11Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand
(Ephesians 6:10-13)
Then the apostle goes on to detail the armor of God that EVERY Christian is bid to put on, featuring its one and only offensive weapon:
...the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of GodThe armor of God, for EVERY Christian; the Word of God, for the hand of EVERY Christian.
(v. 17b)
Works for me. It could work for you. Trade up!
Dan
BTW, I'm Presbyterian, and I don't pray to Michael, but if Roman Catholics choose to do so, that's fine by me. Pax.
You've touched on one of the factors that points to the glaring wrong we have slipped to since the 1973 supreme Court Roe decision tossed our nation onto the slippery slope of dehumanizing individual human life ... killing an uborn child has become commonplace as an 'option' when pregnancy is confronted.
While it may be argued that early in pregnancy a woman should (I don't happen to ascribe to 'should' for that is too casual an expression) have the right of seeking an abortion for meaningful reasons, what Senator Rick Santorum and many able Senators addressed in partial birth abortion is nothing but infanticide as a solution to difficult life situations, and a death sentence for tens-of-thousands of alive individual human beings in the womb! This bill just passed by a 65 to 32 vote addresses but one of the heinous methods used to slaughter the little ones sequestered in the shelter of their mother's womb. All the other methods may have to be addressed singularly, as well. But I suspect, as the reality of this ban and what it criminalizes begins to soak into the American psyche (and I intend to revisit this reality as often as I may find possible in the months ahead, in as many venues as permit me to write and publish throught them), the argeement to ban all abortions of individual alive human beings reaching the age of viability outside the womb will be demanded by the people for the little ones.
It would be my sincere hope that our elected Legislative leaders will go from this hallmark passage of a ban on infanticide most cruel and heinous, to craft legislation that will proscribe all abortions after the child reaches the age of viability, with humane and meaningful exceptions that do not cancel the effect of protecting the life of the unborn.
Senator Durbin offered an alternative piece of legislation that would have banned all such abortions, but included in his effort an exception clause so broad as to effectively nullify his original intent in the bill. To his great credit, I heard Senator Durbin vote 'Aye' to the Santorum bill. It gave me a moment of hope that there are prospects for bi-partisan effort at restraining the now unfettered resort to abortion on demand through the nine months of individual life in the womb. True physicians to the welfare of their fellow human beings address the life of the mother as well as the dependant life of the unborn. Killing should (and here that term is precisely accurate) never be an option of casual application of a physician's art and life's work.
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