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TRANSCRIPT: Senator Rick Santorum and Senator Hillary Clinton discussing Partial Birth Abortion
Thomas ^ | 03-13-03 | Senate

Posted on 03/13/2003 10:05:03 AM PST by Registered

Mr. HARKIN. I yield the Senator an additional 5 minutes.

   Mrs. CLINTON. We are talking about those few rare cases when a doctor had to look across a desk at a woman and say, I hate to tell you this, but the baby you wanted, the baby you care so much about, that you are carrying, has a terrible abnormality.

   We had a chance yesterday to build on these successes and do even more for women's health and to prevent unwanted and unsafe pregnancies. Senator Murray's amendment would have increased access to contraceptive coverage by ensuring basic fairness for women in preventing health plans from discriminating against contraceptive coverage in their prescription drug plans. Yet my colleagues did not vote for that. They would much rather criminalize a health procedure than improve women's health. Senator Murray's amendment would have also provided Medicaid and CHIP coverage for pregnant women and their newborns. Yet again, we defeated that on a budget point of order because we are not really interested in women's health. That is not really what this debate is about.

   I have to ask myself, why do we, as government officials, expect we can make these decisions? We know that people of means will always be able to get any health care procedure they deem necessary. That is the way it was before Roe v. Wade. That is the way it will be after this passes the Senate.

   So who are we really leaving out? We are leaving out the vast majority of American women, middle income women, working women who can't get on an airplane to go to Sweden or some other place. I have also seen the results of that. In a hospital in northeast Brazil, a woman's hospital I visited, I went up and down the corridors. Half the women were there for the most wonderful of reasons, because they just had a baby. The other half were there because of problems they had encountered, mostly because of botched back-alley, illegal abortions. Some of them lost their fertility forever; some of them lost their lives.

   When I asked the minister of health what they were going to do about this, he said to me: This is a classic case where it is the poor, the middle class that suffer. The rich can get whatever health care they need. We can make it illegal to get abortions. That doesn't bother the rich. There has always been a double standard. If you are rich, you get what you need. If you are poor, you are left to the back alleys.

   That is one of the other reasons we had to do Roe v. Wade, because is it fair that we have that kind of distinction made on the basis of class or income instead of the basis of law?

   We are facing a moment of historic importance, but not about what we should be debating at this time in our history. I only wish this legislation were not before us. But now that it is, we have to educate the American public.

   I will end by referring again to the young woman, Mrs. Eisen, who was in my office yesterday, about 25 years younger than I am. Hard to imagine. She said: I had no idea that the decision I made with my husband and my doctor to deal with this genetic abnormality was something I could have never had under the laws of where I lived before, and that if this passes, it will become illegal in the future.

   I said: Well, you didn't have to think about that. That was something that, thankfully, we took off the national agenda. But there are those who, from very deeply held beliefs, which I respect, would wish to substitute the Government's decision, just like they did in Romania and China, or substitute the roll of the economic dice, such as happens in Brazil and elsewhere for what should be a difficult, painful, intimate, personal decision.

   This bill is not only ill-advised, it is also unconstitutional. I understand what the other side wants to do. They are hoping to get somebody new on the Supreme Court and to turn the clock back completely, to overrule Roe v. Wade, which is why the Senator from Iowa has such a timely amendment.

   Is this bill really about what the sponsors say, or is it, as they candidly admit, the beginning of the end--to go back in this country to back-alley abortions, to women dying from botched, illegal procedures? I think you can draw your own conclusions.

   It is up to the American public to determine whether they want medical decisions being criminalized by this Senate. Thank you.

   The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Pennsylvania.

   Mr. SANTORUM. Will the Senator yield for a question?

   Mrs. CLINTON. Yes, on the Senator's time.

   Mr. SANTORUM. Yes. The Senator from New York said that the women she had in her office who had late-term abortions--you characterized it that they would be ``forced to carry their children to term'' if this bill passed. Do you stand by that statement?

   Mrs. CLINTON. Yes, I do.

   Mr. SANTORUM. So you believe if this legislation passes outlawing partial-birth abortion, no late-term abortions would be available?

   Mrs. CLINTON. That is what I believe based on what I consider to be the slippery slope of the legislative language that you have carefully and cleverly crafted in this bill.

   Mr. SANTORUM. OK. I suggest that the Senator from New York examine the language. It is very clear that this is one particular kind of abortion we have addressed, and we have addressed the vagueness, as put forth by the U.S. Supreme Court. And there are other techniques available for abortion that are late term in nature, and this bill would in no way stop other abortions. In fact, the previous speaker on the Democrat side, Senator Kennedy, made that very point. He made the point that this will not stop abortions.

   I respect your feelings and I also respect Senator Kennedy's. You both oppose the bill and you have opposite opinions on this issue.

   Mrs. CLINTON. Will the Senator permit me to respond to his statement?

   Mr. SANTORUM. Yes.

   Mrs. CLINTON. I heard the Senator from Massachusetts referencing the fact that, legal or illegal, this is not going to prevent abortions where they are necessary.

   My reading of the legislative language you have put forth, makes a very clear argument that this is a slippery slope; that there are going to be not only difficulties in defining procedures, but the fact is that once you have criminalized this procedure, what doctor will perform any medically necessary procedure? There is no reason to believe any doctor would put his practice and his life at risk.

   As we know right now, a trial is going on in Buffalo, NY, for the murder of a doctor who provided such services.

   Mr. SANTORUM. I thank the Senator. I gave her an opportunity to answer, and I have a couple more questions. No. 1, you suggested that this procedure was extreme. Does the Senator know the most recent Gallup polls--the polls consistently have shown that the banning of this procedure is supported by anywhere from 65 to 75 percent of the American public? What is your definition of ``extreme''?

   Mrs. CLINTON. I respond to the Senator from Pennsylvania that I think it is extreme when the Government prescribes medical procedures that may--despite their not being ones that most of us would ever hope to have experienced by any loved one--be necessary in certain specific events, that were medically determined.

   Mr. SANTORUM. So you would suggest that something that is supported by--you are going to maintain your

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comment that something that is supported by 70 percent of the American public is extreme?

   Mrs. CLINTON. Well, I think the Senator from Pennsylvania is posing a false syllogism. Clearly, if people are told in a poll about the kinds of procedures that might be medically necessary out of context, I can certainly understand why the reaction might be that is not something that we want to talk about, not something we want to think about. But what I do think is extreme is making a decision in this body to outlaw a medical procedure that may be required and medically necessary.

   Mr. SANTORUM. So you don't think the American public understands this issue well enough to be able to form a judgment--I think that is what you are saying--even though we have debated this issue and it has been very much in the literature across America now for 7 years. There have been referendums in States and wide debate. You just don't think the public understands it. I beg to differ with you on that. I think I could stipulate that something that has the support of 70 percent of the public is, by definition, not extreme. So if you don't agree, that is your position, and I respect that.

   The other thing you said was the chart I had up is ``deceptive.'' I am very curious about how you came to that conclusion. Is it deceptive because it shows a perfectly formed baby?

   Is the Senator aware of Ron Fitzsimmons who runs the Association of Abortion Clinics? He has said, when the argument was made by many of the people Senator Boxer and Senator Murray and yourself referred to, who came forward and talked about this being medically necessary or necessary because of complications late in pregnancy--Ron Fitzsimmons said he lied through his teeth when he gave that argument? That was his term. He said, ``I lied through my teeth'' that this was the case. He said it is a dirty little secret, and we all know--those are his terms--that late-term abortions are performed, and the vast majority of late-term abortions are performed on healthy mothers with healthy babies.

   So do you believe it is deceptive to put before the American public the typical case of where a partial-birth abortion is performed, or would it be more deceptive to try to convince the American public that this is done for medical reasons, or on sick babies in the majority of cases, when it is not true?

   Which would you say is more deceptive?

   Mrs. CLINTON. You know, on the Senator's point, I am not arguing against any public education effort, any proselytizing, any means whatsoever to persuade people about what choice they should make. I don't, in fact, think that we have done enough to educate the public about reproductive health, about how to prevent unsafe and unwanted pregnancies, about how to improve contraception, and about what is really at stake in this debate over a women's right to make decisions about her own reproductive health. But for the Senator to imply that there are never instances of abnormalities and problems like the ones represented by the women in my office yesterday, which would be outlawed by your legislation, I believe is deceptive.

   We could solve this, as we have now for 20, 30 years, by saying this is a debate that does not belong in the United States Senate. It belongs in the hearts, minds, consciences of women and their loved ones, and in the medical offices of

   America, not the U.S. Senate.

   Mr. SANTORUM. I will challenge you to find anyplace in the record over the last 7 years where I said that was never the case. I have never said there are not difficult cases. What I have said repeatedly, because I wanted to be truthful with respect to the factual situations with which we are presented on the issue of late-term abortions and the instances in which partial-birth abortions are used--I refer the Senator to the State of Kansas where they have to report the reason for a partial-birth abortion; 182 were done last year, or the year before, and of those 182, none--zero--were done because of a problem with the child or a physical problem with the mother. They were classified as mental health.

   So I suggest to the Senator that those in the abortion industry themselves say this is the typical procedure on the typical baby. There may be--and there are--a small number of cases that are late-term where you find out the child within the womb has a fetal abnormality and may not live. I just suggest--and you used the term--where is the brainless head? Where are the lungs outside the body? I will just say I will be happy to put a child with a disability up there. But, frankly, I don't see the difference in my mind--and I am not too sure the public does--with respect to that being any less of a child.

   It is still a child, is it not? Maybe it is a child that is not going to live long, but do we consider----

   Mrs. CLINTON. Will the Senator yield?

   Mr. SANTORUM. In a moment. Do we consider a child that may not live long, or may have an abnormality, to be less of a child? Is this less of a human because it is not perfect? Have we reached the point in our society where because perfection is so required of us, that those who are not perfect don't even deserve the opportunity to live for however long they are ticketed to live in this country?

   Are we saying we need these kinds of infanticides to weed out those who are not going to survive or those who are not perfect, and that somehow or another we have to have a method available that we only allow perfect children to be born? If that is the argument, I am willing to stand here and have that debate. If that is what you want us to show, I am willing to stand and show that.

   I suggest this is the typical abortion that goes with partial-birth. That is exactly what the industry says is the case. If the Senator would like me to find a child that has a cleft palate, I can do that. That doctor from Ohio performs a lot of abortions. He says he did nine in one year because of that. If she would like me to show a case of spina bifida, I can do that. That may be a reason someone has to have a late-term abortion.

   I would be happy to show those, but those are the exception rather than the rule, and I think it is imperative----

   Mrs. CLINTON. Will the Senator yield?

   Mr. HARKIN. Will the Senator yield for a question?

   Mr. SANTORUM. I will be happy to. It is imperative upon us to present the standard, the predominant case in which partial-birth abortions are done, and that is what we are doing. I will be happy to yield for a question.

   Mrs. CLINTON. The Senator from Iowa got in first.

   Mr. HARKIN. Go ahead. The Senator is engaged in debate. I have a question.

   Mr. SANTORUM. Fine.

   Mrs. CLINTON. Does the Senator's legislation make exceptions for serious life-threatening abnormalities or babies who are in such serious physical condition that they will not live outside the womb?

   Mr. SANTORUM. No, if----

   Mrs. CLINTON. That is the point.

   Mr. SANTORUM. I understand the Senator's point. I guess my point in rebuttal is that if you want to create a separation in the law between those children who are perfect and those children who are not----

   Mrs. CLINTON. No----

   Mr. SANTORUM. Please, let me finish. If a child is not perfect, then that child can be aborted under any circumstances. But if that child is perfect, we are going to protect that child more. I do not think the Americans with Disabilities Act would fit very well into that definition. The Americans with Disabilities Act--of which I know the Senator from Iowa has been a great advocate, and I respect him greatly for it--says we treat all of God's children the same. We look at all--perfect and imperfect--as creatures of God created in his image.

   What the Senator from New York is asking me to do is separate those who are somehow not the way our society sees people as they should be today and put them somewhat a peg below legal protection than the perfect child. I hope the Senator is not recommending that because I think that would set a horrible precedent that could be extrapolated, I know probably to the disgust of the Senator from Iowa, certainly to me.

   No, I do not have an exception in this legislation that says if you are perfect, this cannot happen to you; but if you are not perfect, yes, this can occur. The Senator is right, I do not.

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   Mrs. CLINTON. To respond, if I could, to the Senator from Pennsylvania, my great hope is that abortion becomes rarer and rarer. I would only add that during the 1990s, it did, and we were making great progress. These decisions, in my view, have no place in the law, so they should not be drawing distinctions in the law. This ought to be left to the family involved.

   The very fact the Senator from Pennsylvania does not have such a distinction under any circumstances, I think, demonstrates clearly the fallacy in this approach to have a government making such tremendously painful and personal and intimate decisions.

   Mr. SANTORUM. I certainly respect the difference of opinion the Senator and I have on the underlying issue of abortion. Again, I think people can disagree on that. I, frankly, do not agree there should be a difference between children who are ``normal,'' in society's eyes--I do not know what that means anymore, what a society sees as normal--and those who happen to have birth defects, severe or not. I do not

   believe we should draw distinctions.

   Mrs. CLINTON. If the Senator will yield for one final point, I want the RECORD to be very clear that I value every single life and every single person, but if the Senator can explain to me how the U.S. Government, through the criminal law process, will be making these decisions without infringing upon fundamental rights, without imposing onerous burdens on women and their families, I would be more than happy to listen. But based on my experience and my understanding of how this has worked in other countries, from Romania to China, you are about to set up----

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Pennsylvania has the floor.

   Mr. SANTORUM. To liken a ban on a brutal procedure such as partial-birth abortion to the forced abortion policies of China is a fairly substantial stretch, and I do not accept that as an analogy. I do not think it holds up under any scrutiny.

   With respect to the other issue, let the record speak for itself.

   Mrs. CLINTON. Madam President, if I can ask the Senator for one final point.

   Mr. SANTORUM. On the Senator's time. I have been more than generous on my time.

   Mr. HARKIN. I ask the Senator to yield.

   Mr. SANTORUM. On the Senator's time.

   Mr. HARKIN. The Senator has been very good about yielding for questions. If the Senator needs more time, I will join him in getting unanimous consent to give the Senator more time, if he needs it, because he has been very good about getting into a discussion. Do not worry about time. We will give you whatever time you want.

   Mr. SANTORUM. I thank the Senator from Iowa.

   Mrs. CLINTON. Is the Senator aware that in the very poll he cited, there is another finding? When Americans were asked if a law should be passed with no health exemption, 59 percent said no, it should not pass.

   Mr. SANTORUM. I appreciate that. Again, that is a good open item for debate. I would suggest that most Americans--and that is why this debate the Senator from Iowa has brought up is so important--do not understand what the breadth of health exception means. I suspect most Americans understand when they hear health exception, they believe there is some imminent danger to the health of the mother. Of course, that is not what Doe v. Bolton says.

   Doe v. Bolton talks very broadly of health. I will be happy to give the actual language. Doe v. Bolton is very broad on health to include everything from emotional and mental health to familial health, age of the mother. It is as broad a term--in fact, the courts have interpreted it to mean anything. It is an exception that, frankly, swallows up any limitation, restriction on abortion.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: abortion; clinton; goodvsevil; pba; pbaban2003; santorum
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1 posted on 03/13/2003 10:05:03 AM PST by Registered
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To: Registered
I've "bookmarked" this thread for use in 2008. I recommend all of you do so as well.
2 posted on 03/13/2003 10:06:29 AM PST by hispanarepublicana (successful, educated unauthentic latina--in Patrick Leahy's eyes, at least)
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To: Registered
BTTT
3 posted on 03/13/2003 10:06:42 AM PST by RAT Patrol
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To: Registered
thanks. this is great to have.
4 posted on 03/13/2003 10:08:24 AM PST by xsmommy
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To: hispanarepublicana
Her term ends in 2006.
5 posted on 03/13/2003 10:10:03 AM PST by WaveThatFlag
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To: Registered
Thanks for posting this. I think Senator Santorum did an amazing job yesterday!
6 posted on 03/13/2003 10:11:19 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: WaveThatFlag
Her term ends in 2006.

Yeah, but Pres. Bush's last term ends right after the election in 2008.

7 posted on 03/13/2003 10:11:48 AM PST by hispanarepublicana (successful, educated unauthentic latina--in Patrick Leahy's eyes, at least)
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To: RAT Patrol
She is a pig. You know, she just can't ever have a conversation without at least once starting a sentence saying "you know".
8 posted on 03/13/2003 10:13:31 AM PST by Chuzzlewit
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To: Registered
Thanks for the transcript. I was fortunate to hear Hillary! getting trounced yesterday. Reading it again made me smile--again.
9 posted on 03/13/2003 10:15:49 AM PST by NautiNurse (Usama bin Laden has produced more tapes than Steely Dan)
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To: Registered

Great stuff. Startling to see her words in red, though appropriate for her status. [cue angels singing...now]

10 posted on 03/13/2003 10:21:57 AM PST by SquirrelKing ("All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Burke)
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To: Registered
Thanks for posting this....I missed Hilary's portion of the debate, but I caught the final speech of Senator Santorum and I was moved to tears. What an eloquent and passionate speaker he is, a true hero in my book!
11 posted on 03/13/2003 10:22:12 AM PST by Larightgirl
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To: Miss Marple
He was brilliant from start to finish. I think he should run for President in 2008. He is the only one who can articulate the Founders' vision of the Constitution so well. More power to him!
12 posted on 03/13/2003 10:25:35 AM PST by Maeve (Siobhan's daughter and sometime banshee.)
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To: Registered
Many thanks for this thread!! Now, being an Upstate New Yorker and listening to Hillary, I KNOW THAT I HAVE NO VOICE!!
13 posted on 03/13/2003 10:27:19 AM PST by Sacajaweau (Hillary: Constitutional Scholar! NOT)
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To: Salvation; Joe 6-pack; Aquinasfan; nina0113; sandyeggo; american colleen; Desdemona; NYer; ...
You'll want to read this I think. The transcript doesn't convey 2 important things. First, how Mrs. Clinton was dripping with evil during this exchange. Second, how Santorum exercised what used to be called "custodianship of the eyes" by looking more at the ground rather than into her demonic eyes. Senator Santorum was totally inspired in this effort, and in my opinion his words were empowered and anointed by God.
14 posted on 03/13/2003 10:29:13 AM PST by Maeve (Siobhan's daughter and sometime banshee.)
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To: Maeve
He was brilliant from start to finish. I think he should run for President in 2008.

I was very impressed as well.

15 posted on 03/13/2003 10:34:19 AM PST by Huck
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To: Registered
Thank you for posting this.

And a bump for Mr. Santorum.
16 posted on 03/13/2003 10:35:35 AM PST by P.O.E. (God Bless and keep safe our troops.)
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To: Registered
I have to ask myself, why do we, as government officials, expect we can make these decisions?

Funny, the Wicked Witch of the West Wing didn't seemed too concerned about bureaucrats doing just that when she tried to socialize the entire health care system.

17 posted on 03/13/2003 10:38:34 AM PST by ABG(anybody but Gore) (Support the handicapped, hire a liberal...)
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To: Registered
God bless Sen. SANTORUM. It's not just Daniel Webster who knows how to debate with the devil!
18 posted on 03/13/2003 10:40:10 AM PST by RicocheT
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To: Registered
Hillary Clinton is married to a rapist.
19 posted on 03/13/2003 10:41:18 AM PST by Saundra Duffy
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To: Registered
The choice of RED as the voice of Hitlery is more than symbolic.

Thanks pal!

20 posted on 03/13/2003 10:48:38 AM PST by lormand
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To: sauropod
If you missed this on C-Span yesterday, you will want to read it. Santorum was great.
21 posted on 03/13/2003 10:49:51 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Registered
Abortion (PB) Bookmark
22 posted on 03/13/2003 10:50:36 AM PST by Texas_Jarhead
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To: Registered
Man, the cat was ON!

(Quick, name that reference!)

Dan
23 posted on 03/13/2003 10:52:28 AM PST by BibChr (Gotta love these guys who are smarter than God!)
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To: Registered
"Senator Rick Santorum and Senator Hillary Clinton discussing Partial Birth Abortion"

Hmph. I didn't even know they were seeing each other.

24 posted on 03/13/2003 10:55:04 AM PST by theDentist (So..... This is Virginia..... where are all the virgins?)
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To: hispanarepublicana
Excellent suggestion. Done.
25 posted on 03/13/2003 11:07:51 AM PST by Bahbah (Pray for our Troops)
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To: Registered
The chart that Sen. Santorum is refering to, was right behind him to his right. The C-Span camera kept most of it out of view except on a few occasions. The chart showed a medical cut-away graphic of a baby being born, head not yet out, little legs dangling between latex gloved hands..perfectly formed.

Santorum went on to address Clinton:

The other thing you said was the chart I had up is ``deceptive.'' I am very curious about how you came to that conclusion. Is it deceptive because it shows a perfectly formed baby?

Thank YOU Sen. Santorum.

The camera didn't show Madam Serpents face, but I certainly could imagine her recoil.

26 posted on 03/13/2003 11:07:59 AM PST by aeronca
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To: Registered
Mrs. CLINTON. We are talking about those few rare cases when a doctor had to look across a desk at a woman and say, I hate to tell you this, but the baby you wanted, the baby you care so much about, that you are carrying, has a terrible abnormality.

Yes, he/she will be born a liberal nonthinking person. The good news is, their brain will hardly ever be used.

27 posted on 03/13/2003 11:16:46 AM PST by Dad was my hero
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To: Registered
They would much rather criminalize a health procedure than improve women's health.

I love that: "a health procedure!" Like removing a wart. It is only tissue. You would be surprised the number of women (in college no less) that do not really know what occurs in a partial birth abortion. Maybe Hildebeast could educate them....

Is this bill really about what the sponsors say, or is it, as they candidly admit, the beginning of the end--to go back in this country to back-alley abortions, to women dying from botched, illegal procedures? I think you can draw your own conclusions.

Did the silly cow ever hear of birth control, or, heaven forbid, abstaining until marriage? How about that non-sexual means of relief practiced by her husband: oral sex with a person the age of your own daughter?

My reading of the legislative language you have put forth, makes a very clear argument that this is a slippery slope; that there are going to be not only difficulties in defining procedures, but the fact is that once you have criminalized this procedure, what doctor will perform any medically necessary procedure?

The slippery slope works both ways. Once human life has been rendered worthless, you can't easily go back. She keeps calling it "medically necessary." See below.

Is the Senator aware of Ron Fitzsimmons who runs the Association of Abortion Clinics? He has said, when the argument was made by many of the people Senator Boxer and Senator Murray and yourself referred to, who came forward and talked about this being medically necessary or necessary because of complications late in pregnancy--Ron Fitzsimmons said he lied through his teeth when he gave that argument? That was his term. He said, ``I lied through my teeth'' that this was the case. He said it is a dirty little secret, and we all know--those are his terms--that late-term abortions are performed, and the vast majority of late-term abortions are performed on healthy mothers with healthy babies.

I refer the Senator to the State of Kansas where they have to report the reason for a partial-birth abortion; 182 were done last year, or the year before, and of those 182, none--zero--were done because of a problem with the child or a physical problem with the mother. They were classified as mental health.

What if the woman has a fight, gets a divorce etc., and doesn't want to bear the child of her husband or ex? Maybe we should have a waiting period similar to that the libs are trying to impose on gun owners. A nice 3 month cooling off period might be necessary!!!

Thank you, Senator Santorum.

28 posted on 03/13/2003 11:23:56 AM PST by SpinyNorman
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To: Registered
Thanks for posting this thread .. I was so proud of my Senator Santorum yesterday
29 posted on 03/13/2003 11:24:58 AM PST by Mo1 (RALLY FOR AMERICA - VALLEY FORGE,PA MARCH 16, 2003 1:00 PM)
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To: Registered
BUMP!!!!!!!
30 posted on 03/13/2003 11:27:01 AM PST by OXENinFLA
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To: Registered
Hillary, once a murderer always a murderer.
31 posted on 03/13/2003 11:30:00 AM PST by bmwcyle (Semper Gumby - Always Flexable)
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To: RicocheT
Yes. Senator Santorum came up against Mrs. Screwtape, and was the victor. All of the little Wormwoods are scampering about now, they now their end is nigh !!!
32 posted on 03/13/2003 11:31:04 AM PST by let us cross over the river
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To: WarSlut
ping
33 posted on 03/13/2003 11:31:49 AM PST by cgk (the Mrs half)
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To: Registered
That is one of the other reasons we had to do Roe v. Wade, because is it fair that we have that kind of distinction made on the basis of class or income instead of the basis of law?

You know, it seems to me that lots of rich people get away with a lot of crimes that poor people get caught for. Like drugs, for instance.

Does that mean Sen. Clinton is in favor of legalizing them?

Anyway, the argument is specious. When abortion was illegal, people of means who got abortions in America were just as guilty of breaking the law as anyone eles. That they could afford more competent lawbreaking doctors does not change that.

As for the idea that we had to change our laws because some poeple could fly to Sweden for abortions, if that is a basis for legislating, that our sovereginity ends at the borders, then we might as well have no laws whatsoever.

SD

34 posted on 03/13/2003 11:32:38 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: hispanarepublicana
The link to the bill on Thomas
35 posted on 03/13/2003 11:53:08 AM PST by gridlock (This tag line printed with soy-based electrons on 100% post-cosumer ether.)
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To: SoothingDave
You're right: There is simply no logic to Hillary's statement that the rich can get abortions ( implying that it was at the time it was illegal), then the poor should be able to get them, too.

Somehow, I'm getting the feeling that Hiilary knows someone in particular, of means, who had an abortion prior to Roe vs Wade. It may have been a classmate at Wellsley or Yale but I truly believe she has a "secret". Something may be in her thesis which has been sealed.

36 posted on 03/13/2003 12:03:56 PM PST by Sacajaweau (Hillary: Constitutional Scholar! NOT)
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To: Registered
read later - and anti-Hillary ammunition
37 posted on 03/13/2003 12:10:39 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Registered
Bookmarked! bump
38 posted on 03/13/2003 12:24:01 PM PST by CanisMajor2002 (Annoy a liberal...judge them by the content of their character)
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To: LiteKeeper
I've been researching news articles at the Library and there are many abortion articles during the 1800's. The index indicates that many involved arrests. I'll copy what may be fruitful. This is not my normal field of research.
39 posted on 03/13/2003 12:28:41 PM PST by Sacajaweau (Hillary: Constitutional Scholar! NOT)
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To: hispanarepublicana
how do you bookmark a thread?
40 posted on 03/13/2003 12:29:15 PM PST by votelife (call the Dem Senate cloakroam for Estrada: (202) 224-4691)
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To: Registered
Ping for later reading. Thank you so much.
41 posted on 03/13/2003 12:29:49 PM PST by american colleen (Christe Eleison!)
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To: All
Let Hillary tell that "sitting across from the doctor" story to our NY Bills Football Player (Jim???) with the little boy who has a serious disease. That family is putting their money on eradicating the disease. Hillary eradicates the baby!!!
42 posted on 03/13/2003 12:33:48 PM PST by Sacajaweau (Hillary: Constitutional Scholar! NOT)
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To: Sacajaweau
Jim Kelly, it is. Western PA native, like Santorum.

you have hit on the exact point, which is where genetic research and such is leading. Long before we have a cure for birth defects, we will have the "solution." Identify them in the womb and eradicate the "imperfect."

Of course, as that progresses, the definition of "imperfect" becomes more broad, and the pressure to "design" your offspring comes in.

Why would you burden society and yourself by bringing a child with a disability in to the world?

SD

43 posted on 03/13/2003 12:40:51 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Registered
bttt
44 posted on 03/13/2003 12:49:51 PM PST by Kudsman (LETS GET IT ON WITH HIM.- The price of freedom is vigilance. Tyranny is free of charge.)
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To: Registered
This one should be bumped forever. Rick Santorum was nothing less than magnificent.
45 posted on 03/13/2003 1:15:40 PM PST by truthkeeper
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To: Maeve; Siobhan; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; ...
Thanks for the bump, Maeve!!

I refer the Senator to the State of Kansas where they have to report the reason for a partial-birth abortion; 182 were done last year, or the year before, and of those 182, none--zero--were done because of a problem with the child or a physical problem with the mother. They were classified as mental health.

Herein lies the truth!! It is quite common for politicians, be they at the state or federal level, to drag in the one exception, to justify their position. Senator Santorum cited factual statistics. I once dated a very wonderful guy with a cleft palate. To think that someone would choose to abort their baby for this reason, is criminal. This needs to be reflected in our laws.

Truly frightening, however, is a case in France. Last year, a disabled person sued the state for not allowing him to be aborted. And, he won. Now that is sick!!!

46 posted on 03/13/2003 2:58:07 PM PST by NYer (Kyrie Eleison)
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To: Registered
bump
47 posted on 03/13/2003 3:40:54 PM PST by Raymond Hendrix
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To: Ms. AntiFeminazi
Add this to your pro-life files...
48 posted on 03/13/2003 4:26:07 PM PST by Registered
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To: Registered
Why don't the supports of "partial Birth" abortion just persuade the mother to have a c-section or be induced. The fetus can survive on it's own at that stage.
49 posted on 03/13/2003 4:28:22 PM PST by dougiefresh
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50 posted on 03/13/2003 4:31:55 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Don't just sit there, use the links on the Graphic Teaser.)
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