Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Getting a glimpse at SCO's evidence
CNET news.com ^ | August 19, 2003 | Lisa M. Bowman

Posted on 08/19/2003 7:39:56 AM PDT by Joe Bonforte

LAS VEGAS--When SCO Group first filed its lawsuit against IBM in March, critics characterized the move as the last gasp of an ailing company hoping to strike a series of lucrative licensing deals.

Since then the company has come out swinging even harder, bashing its detractors, standing by its allegations, and most recently, posting a profit that SCO said would allow it to continue its aggressive intellectual property fight.

At the SCO Forum here Monday, the company pulled out its latest weapon: lines and lines of disputed code that were allegedly copied from SCO's Unix into IBM's version of Linux. The company claims that IBM illegally copied Unix code into its version of Linux, and it's warning Linux customers that they may be violating copyright by using the operating system without paying SCO. It's also recently announced a new licensing plan that would require Linux customers to pay between $199 and $699 per computer.

In a quiet conference room tucked into the conference center at the MGM Grand, SCO offered customers, partners and the merely curious the chance to view the code for themselves, as long as they signed a nondisclosure agreement.

Companies involved in litigation traditionally keep such information under wraps in order not to tip their legal hand, but SCO said it decided to display the code because its critics were charging that it didn't have a case.

"Given the nature of this case and that there may be a significant period of time before it's resolved and that people were clamoring to see it, we decided to show a few pieces of evidence," said Chris Sontag, senior vice president of the SCOsource unit, which is charged with protecting SCO's Unix-related intellectual property.

As of the end of the day on Monday, more than 150 people had seen the code presentation, which the company said includes a small portion of the infringing code it has found so far. Sontag said the company has uncovered more than a million lines of copied code in Linux, with the help of pattern recognition experts.

A compelling case?
According to those who viewed the code at SCO Forum, company representatives showed off several categories of code that allegedly infringed its copyrights, including some lines that appeared to be directly copied, some that were derivative works and some that were obfuscated, such as code from which legal disclaimers had been removed. (This reporter declined to sign the nondisclosure agreement required to attend the special sessions where the companies showed off a special side-by-side comparison of the code, opting instead to gather reactions from people who saw the presentation.)

After viewing the code, Don Price, general manager of Price Data Systems, said he was surprised at the volume that was allegedly copied. "It's compelling," he said. "Some people were either extremely sloppy, or copied and thought no one would go after them."

Neil Abraham, with SCO reseller Kerridge Computer, said SCO made the right decision to pursue IBM. "I think they've got a very firm case," he said, after looking at the code. "It's not just one line. It's huge chunks."

Bob Ungetti, of Raven Technologies, who was milling about waiting to get into a room where the code was being shown off, said he wanted to see the code because his customers have been asking him about the suit. "I want to see the code myself just to substantiate the claims SCO is making, so when I talk to my customers about the credibility of the lawsuit, I can say I saw it for myself," said Ungetti, whose company is a reseller for SCO. "If they're interested in using Linux, they're concerned they may be adversely affected; my SCO customers are concerned that if the company loses the lawsuit, it may be out of business."

Ungetti said a keynote address on Monday morning had already convinced him that SCO had a pretty solid case. During a speech, SCO representatives showed a few slides containing the allegedly infringing code, offering attendees a taste of what they could see if they signed the nondisclosure agreement.

"The spelling errors and comments (copied into the code) are the real kicker. To me, that's the nail in the coffin," Ungetti said.

Many attendees of the conference are longtime SCO fans, so convincing them that the company has a case by showing them the code probably wasn't too tough. However, at least one attendee was appalled by SCO's decision to sue IBM. The man, an exhibitor on the show floor who asked that his name not be used, said that SCO's hands aren't clean either, because the company has probably taken code from other sources and incorporated it into its products. "It looks to me like there's been a lot of cross-pollination" between Unix and Linux, said the attendee, who jokingly called SCO's legal saga "As the Stomach Turns."

Legal experts agreed that SCO faces a challenge of proving that it has the original rights to the code--a task that could prove especially daunting because of a special license popular among makers of free and open-source software known as the GNU Public License, or GPL. The GPL requires companies that incorporate code into their product to share their changes. In its response to SCO's legal filing, IBM claims that SCO can't assert claims to the disputed code because it was originally covered under the GPL.

"Even if there is literal copying, you'll have to say, 'What's the source of the code?'" said Stuart Meyer, a partner with Fenwick & West, who is not involved in the case.

SCO has denied that the disputed code is covered by the GPL. An attorney for the company said Monday that even if it were, federal copyright laws protecting the company's intellectual property would trump the free software license, an argument that could form the crux of the case should it go to trial.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Technical
KEYWORDS: copyright; lawsuit; linux; sco
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 161-166 next last
Looks like the SCO case was not as simple as some of the Linux folks originally made out. It's beginning to look quite complex.

And, before the Linux guys point this out, I might as well get it out of the way: Yes, Microsoft is a major beneficiary. The longer and more confused the case becomes, the more Microsoft benefits from it.

I've stated before that I don't believe in the conspiracy theory that Microsoft is pulling the strings at SCO. I think SCO came up with this whole thing on their own. But I'm sure the execs at Microsoft were pleased when they heard about SCO's plans.

1 posted on 08/19/2003 7:39:56 AM PDT by Joe Bonforte
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
The SCO lawsuites and Oracle's hostile bid for PeopleSoft are turning the IT industry into 2003's spectator's sport.
2 posted on 08/19/2003 7:42:24 AM PDT by magellan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
I'll go to freeBSD before ever handing a dime over to SCO. Real simple.
3 posted on 08/19/2003 7:44:51 AM PDT by martianagent
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rdb3; Nick Danger
*
4 posted on 08/19/2003 7:45:59 AM PDT by dighton (NLC™)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
I think M$ has more of a hand in it than we are lead to believe. M$ started worrying about their server share a year or so ago, looks like this may be part of the solution to me.

What I don't understand is the Linux guys have offered to fix the problem by removing SCO code and replacing it with open source. Last I heard SCO wouldn't identify the code they claim ownership of to allow removal. If that's correct, I don't think SCO has a leg to stand on.
5 posted on 08/19/2003 7:49:10 AM PDT by steve50
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
After viewing the code, Don Price, general manager of Price Data Systems, said he was surprised at the volume that was allegedly copied. "It's compelling," he said. "Some people were either extremely sloppy, or copied and thought no one would go after them."

This shows absolutely nothing about what was copied from where, only that a common source was somehow involved.

6 posted on 08/19/2003 7:51:01 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
The man, an exhibitor on the show floor who asked that his name not be used, said that SCO's hands aren't clean either, because the company has probably taken code from other sources and incorporated it into its products. "It looks to me like there's been a lot of cross-pollination" between Unix and Linux, said the attendee, who jokingly called SCO's legal saga "As the Stomach Turns."

If UNIX has copied from Linux, then the FSF has a cause of claim against SCO.

7 posted on 08/19/2003 7:52:58 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steve50
What I don't understand is the Linux guys have offered to fix the problem by removing SCO code and replacing it with open source.

I think I can explain SCO's point of view on that. Suppose you were the author of a book, and another book turned up in the bookstores with portions of your book included, but with no acknowledgement or payment to you. You confront the author/editor, who says, "I'm sure it was accidental. Just tell me the parts that we copied, and we'll rewrite those."

In your mind, does that absolve the author or editor from responsibility for plagarism? Keep in mind that the originally printed books are going to be out there no matter what.

Similarly, if SCO has a copyright-infringement case, then even if Linux is changed today, there will be many copies of Linux still out there. And just saying, "Hey, it was all an accident" does not absolve those who appropriated intellectual property.

The big problem here, and the biggest difference from the book case posited above, is that no one owns Linux in any meaningful sense. Therefore, there is no easy way to assign responsibility for copyright infringement (or any other liability issues). Whether the Linux folks want to admit it or not, this is a serious flaw in Linux for business users. (Personal users don't have any realistic concern because it's not economic to sue them.)

8 posted on 08/19/2003 8:05:44 AM PDT by Joe Bonforte
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
If UNIX has copied from Linux, then the FSF has a cause of claim against SCO.

If that can be proved, you are absolutely correct. I presume IBM's lawyers are trying to find evidence for that right now.

9 posted on 08/19/2003 8:07:23 AM PDT by Joe Bonforte
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
Many attendees of the conference are longtime SCO fans
and thus not likely to have any bias...?
10 posted on 08/19/2003 8:10:22 AM PDT by Eala (When politicians speak of children, count the spoons. - National Review Editors)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
Revelations of these types are exactly like the demonstrations that confidence operators use to sell perpetual motion machines to the marks. Lots of drama, little substance, and never ever let an expert get a close look.

Until SCO releases the code that it claims infringes so it can be compared to the Linux and BSD and ??? CVS databases they are just hawking FUD to pump up their stock price. Darl should put up or shut up.

And I for one am so impressed with the statements of the SCO resellers.
11 posted on 08/19/2003 8:12:51 AM PDT by Rifleman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
But IBM is the one who copied the code (supposedly) into the kernel, Linus and the community as a whole would be happy to remove it and that would slove the problem.

What this article does not mention is that much of the copied code is being challenged to be covered by IBM Patents..

12 posted on 08/19/2003 8:14:29 AM PDT by N3WBI3
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
Here I am in the heart of SCO country and I don't have a clue as to what the S-C-O initials stand for.
Can you help me Joe?
13 posted on 08/19/2003 8:14:43 AM PDT by KateUTWS (Firmly ensconced in Conservative country)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: KateUTWS
SCO originally stood for Santa Cruz Operation.
14 posted on 08/19/2003 8:17:22 AM PDT by Joe Bonforte
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
As a matter of civil law, the plaintiff (SCO) has the duty to mitigate its losses. It can't hide information from the alleged infringer if to do so would exacerbate the damages.
15 posted on 08/19/2003 8:19:48 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: KateUTWS
Santa Cruz Operations
16 posted on 08/19/2003 8:21:00 AM PDT by microgood (They will all die......most of them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
It's a more complex problem than I thought. How did SCO get in Linux to start with. I can't see Linux stealing a copyrighted product when they seem able to replace it with open source so easily.

I also don't understand the refusal of SCO to identify their code for removal. Even if previuos versions are liabile, I would think the Linux distributers have a right to remove SCO and market a new true open source version. Maybe they are just waiting for the courts to rule.
17 posted on 08/19/2003 8:24:08 AM PDT by steve50
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
I think I can explain SCO's point of view on that. Suppose you were the author of a book, and another book turned up in the bookstores with portions of your book included, but with no acknowledgement or payment to you. You confront the author/editor, who says, "I'm sure it was accidental. Just tell me the parts that we copied, and we'll rewrite those."

This is called begging the question. You assume that some of the code was copied from SCOs IP to Linux. SCO asserts this but has produced no evidence. I could assert that I am Marie Queen of Romania but I would still be a Missouri redneck.

In your mind, does that absolve the author or editor from responsibility for plagarism? Keep in mind that the originally printed books are going to be out there no matter what.

Similarly, if SCO has a copyright-infringement case, then even if Linux is changed today, there will be many copies of Linux still out there. And just saying, "Hey, it was all an accident" does not absolve those who appropriated intellectual property.

Again, begging the question with a strawman added. No one is suggesting that any copying was accidental (if it exists) or that it would be ok if it were. If SCO has IP infringed by the Linux code, they are probably entitled to compenstion for actual damages. If any.

The big problem here, and the biggest difference from the book case posited above, is that no one owns Linux in any meaningful sense. Therefore, there is no easy way to assign responsibility for copyright infringement (or any other liability issues). Whether the Linux folks want to admit it or not, this is a serious flaw in Linux for business users. (Personal users don't have any realistic concern because it's not economic to sue them.)

Horse apples. The linux source and its evolution is as well documented as any such activity can be. The CVS archives contain records of every change ever made (well, after Linus released the first versions) and they are publicly readable.

18 posted on 08/19/2003 8:32:48 AM PDT by Rifleman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
It can't hide information from the alleged infringer if to do so would exacerbate the damages.

I believe the article mentioned that anyone who wanted to see some of the evidence could do so if they signed a non-disclosure. So it is possible for any potential defendents to see if SCO has a prima facie case.

I think the damages are presumably for past actions, and hiding information on the details of the case doesn't exacerbate that. SCO has already made an offer to the defendents to come clean. If defendents believe they have no liability, then they will find out the rest of the information during the discovery process for the court case.

So I don't see where SCO is exacerbating any damages. It is merely preventing those who have presumably infringed in the past from hiding that infringement before SCO sues them.

By the way, this analysis doesn't mean I'm a cheerleader for SCO. I think their offer for licensing for Linux users was preposterously high. But I also think that from a legal standpoint, if they can prove massive copying of their intellectual property into Linux, then Linux users are in deep trouble, since they will have to bear the responsibility for using that copyrighted code.

It may still turn out that the alleged infringements are minor and inconsequential. If so, then SCO deserves all the scorn the Linux people have aimed at them, and they deserve to be heavily counter-sued. But I don't think any of us have access to enough information to decide whether SCO's case is a good one or not.

19 posted on 08/19/2003 8:38:14 AM PDT by Joe Bonforte
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
So it is possible for any potential defendents to see if SCO has a prima facie case.

Only if it agrees, in effect, to be barred from the Linux business forevermore. No, plaintiffs cannot play games like that.

20 posted on 08/19/2003 8:40:42 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 161-166 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson