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"More Catholic Than the Pope" New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists
Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

Posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:06 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid

Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.

Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicism; christ; church; eucharist; jesus; liturgy; mass; sspx; tradition; traditionalism
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1 posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:10 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
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To: Patrick Madrid; NYer; BlackElk; ninenot
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Excellent.  Pax et bonum!
2 posted on 07/31/2004 3:33:34 PM PDT by GirlShortstop ( O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... )
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To: Patrick Madrid; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; narses; ...

A timely work. Does it include a chapter on alternative choices of worship for those frustrated with liturgical abuses in the Novus Ordo liturgy (such as the Indult Tridentine or Eastern Catholic Rites)?

3 posted on 07/31/2004 3:46:39 PM PDT by NYer (When you have done something good, remember the words "without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).)
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To: Patrick Madrid

Why focus on this when there are so many serious problems? At the church in my town they tell people that baptism is not necessary and that they will do it to ``appease the grandparents.''


4 posted on 07/31/2004 3:58:33 PM PDT by nickcarraway (a a)
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To: Patrick Madrid
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere, killer of his first child, while still in his mother's womb, and I have co-authored...

Uhm, no-thanks. I'll pass on your book.

5 posted on 07/31/2004 4:04:18 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Patrick Madrid
Nice arrogant strawman Patrick. I guess you haven't gotten the memo that the more you bash us the better we become. You'll get it sooner or later.

I didn't think you were a pot stirrer and would have expected much better from you. Next time you're putting on your phony "nice guy Catholic" routine on that silly EWTN show, remind yourself of this piece of garbage - which is unnecessarily inflammatory and untrue straight from the title.

Go ahead and make oodles of ill-gotten money through slander, I hope you spend it wisely.

6 posted on 07/31/2004 4:05:37 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: Patrick Madrid; Land of the Irish
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere, killer of his first child, while still in his mother's womb, and I have co-authored

I didn't even realize that. Nice partner in crime co-author Patrick.

7 posted on 07/31/2004 4:14:31 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: NYer; nickcarraway
A timely work. Does it include a chapter on alternative choices of worship for those frustrated with liturgical abuses in the Novus Ordo liturgy (such as the Indult Tridentine or Eastern Catholic Rites)?

I would be interested in the reasons cited by current prelates for suppressing the Tridentine Mass (indult/non-schismatic) and non-schismatic Catholic traditions. It cuts both ways - liberal extremism forces many Catholics to search for alternatives for worship. In some cases, tragically, this has led Catholics into Protestant fundamentalist extremism.

8 posted on 07/31/2004 4:15:15 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: nickcarraway
Why focus on this when there are so many serious problems? At the church in my town they tell people that baptism is not necessary and that they will do it to ``appease the grandparents.'' 4 posted on 07/31/2004 3:58:33 PM PDT by nickcarraway

The difficulty with splintering in the church is, really, why stop here? Some people would lump Opus Dei, Regnum Christ, the LCs, CUF and various other "Catholic" organizations which are in sync with Vatican II as "extremism" which harms the church.

9 posted on 07/31/2004 4:24:42 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Patrick Madrid

Your effort seems misguided. Traditionalism is hardly a major problem in the Church today.

In the Diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Pilla has a Rainbow Gay Pride banner on his website and a Seminary Professor is leading the fight for Futurechurch.

I am quite sure your time could have been better spent.


10 posted on 07/31/2004 4:26:52 PM PDT by Diago
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To: Patrick Madrid
More Catholic Than the Pope

ALMOST ANYONE is more Catholic than the apostate Karol Wojtyla, or his predecessor in apostasy, Montini:


John Paul II giving "communion in the hand".


John Paul II with the Trilateral Commission (Apr. 18, 1983).


John Paul II with the B'nai B'rith (Mar. 22, 1984).


John Paul II at the Roman synagogue, where he "prayed for the Messiah who is yet to come". (Apr. 13, 1986).


John Paul II with heretics, schismatics and pagans at Assisi (Oct. 27, 1986).


Small statue of Buddha on an altar at Assisi.


Zoom-in on tabernacle area of previous photo.


John Paul II being anointed with the pagan "Sign of the Tilak".


John Paul II at "Mass" in Papua, New Guinea (May 8, 1984) where the epistle is read by a bare-breasted woman.


John Paul II Kissing the Koran


Paul VI gives up the papal tiara, the traditional symbol of the three-fold papal authority. None of his successors would consent to accept it.


Paul VI with his grotesque "broken cross" which is an utter insult to Our Lord.


Paul VI wearing the Ephod of Caiphas, showing that he thinks more of Old Testament faith (Judaism) than Catholicism. No pope before him wore such an emblem.


Close-up of the Ephod in the previous photo. It contains 12 stones representative of the 12 tribes of Israel.


Paul VI addresses the United Nations on October 4, 1965, calling it (and not the Catholic religion) the "world's greatest hope".


Paul VI with the Protestants who assisted in the formulation of the Novus Ordo Missae.

11 posted on 07/31/2004 4:41:38 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Diago
You must remember that it is not the left that is winning away viewers from Madrid's audience, it is the traditionalists. Madrid appears to have picked the topic that will be the most beneficial to himself.

Could you imagine what problems he may have arranging speaking engagements were he to author a book critical of the Left that controls the institutional church in America.

12 posted on 07/31/2004 4:46:06 PM PDT by Bellarmine
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To: Viva Christo Rey

It looks like Jesus Christ, on His Cross, is bowing to the Pope:

I always thought it should be the the other way around.

13 posted on 07/31/2004 5:14:27 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Patrick Madrid; Land of the Irish
Re: "Peter Vere, killer of his first child, while still in his mother's womb"

Is this true? I am assuming abortion, and I am hoping if it is, it was a spontaneous abortion.

If true your selection of co-authored will do your cause more harm than good, in so many ways.
14 posted on 07/31/2004 5:29:26 PM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: Viva Christo Rey
The one with the bare breasted woman is nice......

Well at least one white haired gentleman looks like he disapproves. (sigh)
15 posted on 07/31/2004 5:35:32 PM PDT by Mark in the Old South
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To: Patrick Madrid
Read the responses from the traddies. You're cutting to the quick with your work.

Next, you'll be called a member of the "lavender mafia."

The people who most need to read your work, won't.

16 posted on 07/31/2004 5:41:22 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: Viva Christo Rey
In reality I think the Pope is trying to obey Jesus when He said, "Love Thy Neighbor"and St. Paul said, "There is neither Jew nor Greek etc."

I don't think that there is anyone on earth that loves the Roman Catholic Church more than Pope John Paul II.

17 posted on 07/31/2004 5:50:00 PM PDT by M007
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To: M007
"I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no strange god before Me."
18 posted on 07/31/2004 5:57:35 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Viva Christo Rey

"I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no strange gods before Me."


19 posted on 07/31/2004 6:00:27 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Land of the Irish
I always thought it should be the the other way around.

A quaint notion, the 'pope' bowing before Chirst. One would have to first actually believe in God were one to hold it.

As for the 'salute' pic, that at least is accurate with Wojtyla hoisting the right fist of the Communists, versus the left fist of the fascists. At least in Turkey. ;-)

20 posted on 07/31/2004 6:03:56 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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