Skip to comments."More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists
Posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:06 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.
Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.
Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.
Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.
A timely work. Does it include a chapter on alternative choices of worship for those frustrated with liturgical abuses in the Novus Ordo liturgy (such as the Indult Tridentine or Eastern Catholic Rites)?
Why focus on this when there are so many serious problems? At the church in my town they tell people that baptism is not necessary and that they will do it to ``appease the grandparents.''
Uhm, no-thanks. I'll pass on your book.
I didn't think you were a pot stirrer and would have expected much better from you. Next time you're putting on your phony "nice guy Catholic" routine on that silly EWTN show, remind yourself of this piece of garbage - which is unnecessarily inflammatory and untrue straight from the title.
Go ahead and make oodles of ill-gotten money through slander, I hope you spend it wisely.
I didn't even realize that. Nice
partner in crime co-author Patrick.
I would be interested in the reasons cited by current prelates for suppressing the Tridentine Mass (indult/non-schismatic) and non-schismatic Catholic traditions. It cuts both ways - liberal extremism forces many Catholics to search for alternatives for worship. In some cases, tragically, this has led Catholics into Protestant fundamentalist extremism.
The difficulty with splintering in the church is, really, why stop here? Some people would lump Opus Dei, Regnum Christ, the LCs, CUF and various other "Catholic" organizations which are in sync with Vatican II as "extremism" which harms the church.
Your effort seems misguided. Traditionalism is hardly a major problem in the Church today.
In the Diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Pilla has a Rainbow Gay Pride banner on his website and a Seminary Professor is leading the fight for Futurechurch.
I am quite sure your time could have been better spent.
ALMOST ANYONE is more Catholic than the apostate Karol Wojtyla, or his predecessor in apostasy, Montini:
John Paul II giving "communion in the hand".
John Paul II with the Trilateral Commission (Apr. 18, 1983).
John Paul II with the B'nai B'rith (Mar. 22, 1984).
John Paul II at the Roman synagogue, where he "prayed for the Messiah who is yet to come". (Apr. 13, 1986).
John Paul II with heretics, schismatics and pagans at Assisi (Oct. 27, 1986).
Small statue of Buddha on an altar at Assisi.
Zoom-in on tabernacle area of previous photo.
John Paul II being anointed with the pagan "Sign of the Tilak".
John Paul II at "Mass" in Papua, New Guinea (May 8, 1984) where the epistle is read by a bare-breasted woman.
John Paul II Kissing the Koran
Paul VI gives up the papal tiara, the traditional symbol of the three-fold papal authority. None of his successors would consent to accept it.
Paul VI with his grotesque "broken cross" which is an utter insult to Our Lord.
Paul VI wearing the Ephod of Caiphas, showing that he thinks more of Old Testament faith (Judaism) than Catholicism. No pope before him wore such an emblem.
Close-up of the Ephod in the previous photo. It contains 12 stones representative of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Paul VI addresses the United Nations on October 4, 1965, calling it (and not the Catholic religion) the "world's greatest hope".
Paul VI with the Protestants who assisted in the formulation of the Novus Ordo Missae.
Could you imagine what problems he may have arranging speaking engagements were he to author a book critical of the Left that controls the institutional church in America.
It looks like Jesus Christ, on His Cross, is bowing to the Pope:
I always thought it should be the the other way around.
Next, you'll be called a member of the "lavender mafia."
The people who most need to read your work, won't.
I don't think that there is anyone on earth that loves the Roman Catholic Church more than Pope John Paul II.
"I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no strange gods before Me."
A quaint notion, the 'pope' bowing before Chirst. One would have to first actually believe in God were one to hold it.
As for the 'salute' pic, that at least is accurate with Wojtyla hoisting the right fist of the Communists, versus the left fist of the fascists. At least in Turkey. ;-)
Not only are you sowing more division between Catholics who are trying to serve the cause of orthodoxy, but your work will risk further alienating those whom the Holy Father desperately desires to see fully regularised within the Church again.
As your work will no doubt help to frustrate the manifest mind and will of the Holy Father, perhaps you should examine your own conscience for the presence of a "schismatic mentality".
Shame on you!
Can you tell me more about peter vere? I've never heard of him.
The Holy Father has bent over backwards, with olive branch after olive branch offered to the SSPX to regularize them.
They don't want to be regularized. They want to suppress the Novus Ordo (just read their posts on this forum) and force the Church to disavow Vatican II's Decrees on Ecumenism and Religious Liberty.
Anybody with any sense knows the Pope is not going to fold on either of those.
Many seeking people are being led into schism and sedevacantism by the integrists.
No, Madrid's work is a perfect counterbalance to The Remnant, Latin Mass Magazine, and other extremist publications.
They are against it, but I don't know a specific "excuse." Many bishops seem to approve it only as long as only older people go. They don't want any young people there. In Hawaii, the bishop allowed an indult, but he made the petitioners promise to "keep it a secret." So, even if you called the chirch,they wouldn't tell you about it.
The Lord does give one instincts to know what should be rebelled against, that's for certain. I had the same reaction the first time I went to Mass and saw the Altar had been turned into a stage.
I keep repeating to myself that the Church is the Body of Christ, and nothing that any man who inhabits the earthly and human community thereof has the power to defile it. But I still say out loud, Lord help us!
He is a 'former' satanist, who became an sspx-er, then indult, then charismatic. I think his first incarnation is the dominant one, especially in the charisms manifest in the other repeated 're-inventions' of himself. Along the way he studied in Canada at the most liberal canon law factory in the entire disgusting novus ordo swamp. Pity he forgot the Faith in the process.
Excellent post, and very cool username.
Don't pretend you don't hear us Patrick.
Hears you? He likely got half the material for his book off the looney bin that is radical traditionalism on Free Republic.
He is a revert from the SSPX schism, the youngest canon lawyer in North America, and also Envoy Encore's token Canadian. He obtained his ecclesiastical licentiate and civil Master's Degree in canon law from Saint Paul University in Ottawa, Canada. As a Catholic writer, canonist and apologist, Pete's work has appeared in numerous Catholic publications, including Surprised by Truth 3. Pete is also the original canon law blogger, having founded the Canon Law Blog which was later rolled into Catholic Light. In addition to blogging for Envoy Encore, he remains an active contributor to Catholic Light and is also developing a blog for the an international group of canon lawyers who maintain a Canon Law Discussion Group. Currently, Pete is married to his college sweetheart Sonya and they have two children.
This is what has stirred up the SSPX bee's nest.
A slanderous accusation is normally accompanied by a a link to supporting documentation from an independent 3rd party. Put up or shut up!
Gee I wondered if someone here was going to make this point.
"The Holy Father has bent over backwards, with olive branch after olive branch offered to the SSPX to regularize them."
He has certainly made some major moves considering the forces within the Vatican and the liberal European and American bishops' conferences which oppose him. All the more reason for not stirring the s**t any further!
"They want to suppress the Novus Ordo (just read their posts on this forum) and force the Church to disavow Vatican II's Decrees on Ecumenism and Religious Liberty."
There are many in the N.O. clergy - including Cardinals and Archbishops - who want exactly the same. Heck, Archbishop John Foley and Cardinal Pell are even spearheading a counter attack against Gaudium et Spes.
"Many seeking people are being led into schism and sedevacantism by the integrists"
Far many more are being led into de facto schism and heresy by bishops like my own and the majority of the US hierarchy. Madrid would help far more souls if he turned his guns on them.
As for sedevacantism, the See might as well be vacant for all the obedience that most bishops give it these days - not that the SSPX supports sedevacantism anyway.
"Currently, Pete is married to his college sweetheart Sonya and they have two children."
"Currently"??? Are we to take it that this is just a temporary arrangement?
I assume this was when vere was a self-admitted satanist - or did he aquire new 'skills' as a 'canon-lawyer'?
I could never leave the Holy See. I would not even go to church at all if I did not have the Pope and the Magisterium to lead and guide me.
Another thing that bothers me is the way the papers like the Remnant are constantly gossiping about the bishops. Isn't gossiping some sort of a sin? The terrible part of gossiping is that the more you read the more you need. It has to keep getting more and more outrageous or the reader is not happy.
His girlfriend had the abortion when the two of them were satanists, not a part of any Church.
St. Paul applauded the stoning of St. Stephen.
Should he be dogged about that?
Thanks for the 'right out loud' laugh, but is this the 'co-author' guy?
The headline gets it wrong. It should be: The Pope thinks he's more Catholic than the all POPES and COUNCILS of the preconciliar Church. The quarrel of these writers is not with traditionalists, it's with the Catholic Church itself--and its teaching Magisterium which John Paul II routinely ignores. It is the Catholic Magisterium which warned against the heresies of indifferentism and syncretism, not traditionalist Catholics! And it's the First Commandment which prohibits worshiping false gods--not us. These writers have a quarrel with true Catholicism, not with us.
Their quarrel is with Catholicism, not with traditionalists. JPII would have no critics if he followed the precepts of preconciliar popes and councils. But he doesn't--he ignores or violates these.
Abortionist at his final judgement, "I didn't kill those hundreds of babies, my scapel did."
According to Columbe, Eliphas Levi, the creator of The Sigil of Baphomet, was an "always faithful Catholic.".
Coulombe, The Esoteric Orthodoxy of Catholicism, Gnosis Magazine, Summer 1990:
"One cannot tell with complete accuracy what will happen. But we can know what must happen if the Church is to function properly. She must return to the... magical view of life; and the process of baptizing Hermeticism, interrupted by the Reformation, must be completed."
So the co-author, being a satanist, is like the Robert Byrd and/or conscience of his particular sect of Catholics? Jeepers creepers, a previous satanist? A satanist?
So? Paul of Tarsus murdered Christians, before his conversion.
|St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the divine power, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen|
That HORRID crucifix of Montini, "the broken Christ", passed down to Wojytla, was the symbol of the necromancer in the Middle Ages, and truly the fitting staff of the antichrist, which has been prophesised by some saints as being a series of false popes.