[free_life]

Hi Mike10542

I don't know any Christian's that want Jews to control Israel so that Christ can return.

Christ will return because He said He would return. Whatever else happens, happens as it is to happen.

Christians recognize Jews as God's chosen people [because God said so] and want to be in agreement with God on that as on other things God said. I would also say that God has put His love in Christian's and that love abounds to Jewish people, which is a good litmus test of whether someone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian or not. For someone to say they are a Christian and not be able to say they love Jews just does not float. It is also just right and just to support Jews and their right to Israel.

I will add that Israel is God's land and He has given stewardship of that land to the Jewish people, that just ends all debate for any bible believing Christian.

When Jesus returns many Jews will accept Him as Messiah as will many gentiles. All people who reject Him will remain separated from Him for all eternity.

[Safrguns]

1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????) 2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive? I'm somewhat familiar with escatology (study of end times), but I'm not an expert... However I do know enough to answer some of your major concerns. The tribulation period is not a judgement against the Jews... it is judgement against the world. I'm not familiar with any statistics on Jewish deaths i.e. 2/3... 1/3 remaining... I don't ever recall hearing that. Those statistics and others I believe are in reference to global death tolls. The reference material you seek is in Revalations. (opening of the seals and the 7 bowl judgements) Pestilence, earthquakes, fire, nuclear war, Several Different ways MANY people will die The Jews are God's chosen people... always have been and always will be. God's plan for evangelizing the nations is through the Jewish people... particularly during the end times (7 year tribulation) It is during the tribulation when all nations will come against Israel under the leadership of the antichrist (who will not be revealed until the rapture occurs.) Messianic Jews (Those who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah) will not be on earth during the tribulation... they depart with all other christians at rapture to meet Jesus for the marriage feast of the Lamb (during the same time as tribulation) Those Jews who are left will suddenly realize (not necessarily all of them) that they had rejected the true Messiah over 2000 years ago... The Jewish people will then become the primary evangelists for Christ on earth... (Christ's church throughout the world is gone) In particular, a special group of evangelical Jews will emerge as Christ's ambassadors in a totally Godless world... They are referred to in Revelations as the 144,000. Judgement comes in a few different flavors... 1. It is appointed to men once to die, and then comes the judgement... This scripture goes for Jews and non Jews alike. This judgement occurs shortly after death, and is simple... are you covered by the blood of Christ or not? If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior (Messiah), then you are covered by His blood, and escape judgement from all sin. If you have not, your judgement is eternal separation from God. 2. Great White throne judgement This does not occur until after the 1000 millenial reign of Christ on earth following the tribulation. It is during this judgement when ALL who have rejected Christ will be judged according to their works. (Christians don't go to this one) 3. Judgement Seat Of Christ This is the judgement which all Christians will face... where they must give an account for all they have done... also where rewards are given for their actions (good works) done through the Holy Spirit. This judgement occurs during the marriage feast of the Lamb (in heaven,same period as tribulation) While it is not clear what 'give an account' entails, we do know that it does not involve punishment for sin... because Jesus already paid that sin debt for us. The bottom line is this... Jew or not... Once you die, Thats it... your eternal fate is settled. As exclusionary and cold as it sounds, Jesus Christ is the only way. But everyone has been given the same chance. Will it be possible for people to be saved during the tribulation? Yes... but It will be a much harder road to travel... and You DONT want to be here.

[Harrymehome]

You wrote:
What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive.

First, I wish to clarify that there are two main trends of beliefs in regards to the rapture. They are the pre-tribulation rapture believers and the post-tribulation rapture believers. And within these two main groups there little twists and variations here and there. The pre-tribulation belief can be easily proven, using at least 100 verses or maybe even more, from the Holy Word of God, that it is false. Unfortunately, because this is a forum, I can't go into a long study of the Sacred Word of God. However, I will provide couple of verses that very easily disproves the pre-tribulation rapture.

Thessalonians 4:15-17 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

This verse clearly says that at Christ's coming, the dead will rise first. There is no where in Scripture that it says the living will rise or be caught up before the dead. Now, with that thought in mind, we read in

Job 14:12-14 "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."

Job clearly states that he will not be raised from the dead (sleep, grave) and become immortal (my change) until after, not before, the wrath (tribulations). We can only conclude that Job will rise before any living person after the tribulations at Christ's coming. There are a plethora of other verses which all agree with this. If you want more, E-mail me at maxblue722@hotmail.com

You wrote:
I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet.

The Jews have many different doctrines and beliefs just like the so called Christians. In the Christians you have the Catholics, the evangelicals, the Baptists, Latter Day Saints, etc., and each one claiming to be the true Christian church. That's impossible or else there wouldn't be so many diverse doctrines. Obviously, 99.9% of these doctrines are man-made and are not Biblical. They are the works of the Devil. The same holds true for the Jews. There are the Sephardic Jews, the Ashkenazi Jews, the Messianic Jews, etc. and within each of these there are other branches. Again each with his own twist. You question is a very broad topic. If you could pick a specific point, it would be easier to discuss it. One thing you mention is the majority opinion. My advise to you is don't be a crowd follower. The crowd is always wrong. Be a Bible follower. Forget the crowd. Remember, in your next question, 2/3's (the crowd) are destroyed. Remember Noah and his family. Only 8 people were saved. The crowd perished. Remember Sodom and Gemorrah. Only Lot and his wife (died for disobedience) and his 2 daughters were saved. The crowd perished. God is very specific in his Most Holy Word about who his people are and how they can be distinguished from the crowd. Unfortunately, there are many (the crowd) that will perish once again. Not because he desires it to be that way but because they are disobedient and wicked.

MAL 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


You ask:
1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)
They will die from all the various pestilences, sores, diseases, famines, weather disasters, wars, etc. Revelation 16 covers this subject and so does Matthew 24. We are currently in verse 8 "the beginning of sorrows". Remember the Israelites in Egypt. The various plagues fell on the Egyptians, but not a single Israelite died. We are already seeing the world's climatic changes taking place and it's effects worldwide. We are already seeing new diseases that were not known 10 years ago, such as Mad Cow, and Sars just to mention a couple. We are already seeing the increase in seismiological activity worldwide. We are already seeing the unrest of Nations and of course the war in the Middle East. All the signs are here. Even the signs in the hosts of the heavens.

You ask:
2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?

The 1/3 that you refer to is taken, I presume, from Zechariah 13:8. This verse is not referring specifically to only the Jews. The redeemed Jews will make up a part of that third. They are the ones mentioned in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and many more as the house of Judah. Also known as the fig tree. Also referred to as the pleasant plant.
The other part of the redeemed 1/3 will be made up of the house of Ephraim. Also called the house of Israel (depends on the context). Also called the house of Joseph. Also called the vine or the vineyard. These 2 houses made up the 12 original tribes. We have evidence that the 12 tribes had problems and had split up as for back as Judges 10:9; 2 Samuel 2:10. A major rift took place between the two houses in 1Kings chapters 10 - 13. Again, this is a long and deep subject. Contact me and I will give all the Biblical verses laid out for easy reading,

You ask:
3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)

Yes, some of the house of Judah will be part of the redeemed remnant. But not all. Some who call themselves Jews are not really Jews (Rev 2:9 and 3:9). They are not descendents of Judah and don't have a single gene of Israelite blood. They are only Jews by religion. However, the fact that they are not biological Jews does not prevent their salvation. What prevents their salvation as well as all other people in the world is disobedience to what God's law and what his requirements are. Not man-made laws and doctrines. If you don't know what these are, contact me and I will specifically give all the Biblical info. The very end of the Holy Word says:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

4) You wrote:I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)

Some of us will, and some of us won't.

Isaiah 11:11 ".. the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, .. "

Note that only those that are left of his people will he recover or save (redeem). That is the 1/3 mentioned earlier. Not all will be saved. The other 2/3 ' s will perish in one way or another.

Isa 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Zech. 8:12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

Notice it doesn't say "all this people". It says the "remnant (means a small part) of this people"

May God Bless You in your search for the TRUTH.

[bperiwinkle7]

To Mike,
it looks like i'm getting into this late, but i take questions like yours very seriously. the Salvation of G-d belongs to Israel. Rabbi Saul said that he was not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ which is the power of G-d unto salvation for them that believe, to the JEW FIRST and then to the gentile.
look here http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=12&version=47
i have put a link to chapter 12 of the book of Zechariah. among other things,there will come a time when the remnant of Israel will look upon Jesus whom they had pierced and will receive Him........that is what will happen. will you be one? hope so. more questions. looking for websites of interest like http://www.hopeofisrael.net/ go here fast. love it. so much more to say.

[bperiwinkle7]

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I [am] the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way [that] thou shouldest go.

The theology of the Triune G-d can be found here.
The context of the speaker in verse 16 rules out his being Israel, but is rather the Sent One, the Messiah.

[M Kehoe]

I don't normally respond to vanities, but this one might get interesting...

I kinda wish A+ Bert was still around.

5.56mm

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

Those who accept Christ as their savior will be saved. Those who do not will be cast out in the end times. Makes no difference if you are Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Baptist or Catholic. Accept Jesus as your personal savior and give control of your life over to Him and you shall enjoy eternal lif through Him. Simple.

[Xenalyte]

Ask your rabbi.

[wimpycat]

There is a reason for different Christian denominations, and different factions, if you will, within those denominations; the Bible says what it says, but you can't get everybody to agree on what it says. And reading the Bible as if it were an encyclopedia or a dictionary isn't the best approach, either, although a lot of people do it. Most serious Christians make a lifelong study of the Bible, reading it over and over, under different conditions, at different points in their lives, and seeing something new every time; you'll never get to the bottom of it.

Personally, I leave such questions as the ultimate fate of everybody, including Jews, the particulars of the Rapture (as well as most particulars of the Apocalypse according to John), up to God. I don't know the answers, but I know that God knows the answers, and that's enough for me. I've got enough to worry about just keeping myself in line.

[Tribune7]

It really depends on the branch of Christianity and contemporaneous circumstances. I remember hearing or reading that few Christians took literally the prophecies of a new Jewish state in Israel.

Anyway believe things because they are true, not to have a happy afterlife.

[anonymo001]

ping

[Quix]

1) God says that those who SEEK HIM SHALL FIND HIM--presumeably those who seek Him with an authentic earnest heart. I believe that includes anyone who will earnestly seek Him with an authentic earnest heart. Somehow, sooner or later--if even on their death bed--I believe God will reveal Himself to them.

2) Evidently 2/3 of mankind--not just of Jews--will die in these end times which quite a number of Christians believe we are at least in the beginning birth pangs of. The deaths evidently come from plagues and war as well as earthquakes and other natural disasters.

3) Daniel, Ezekiel the shorter prophets; Revelation; Mat 24 . . . Isaiah; etc. have passages that pertain to the end times. Daniel 6-9 or some such. Been a while since I've read it. Ezek, I think about 37. The Bible can be very cryptic about such things. I don't believe anyone has it all figured out yet regardless of how many books they write trying to impress us that they do. I believe that when God wants it clear for us in detail, He'll make it that way. Until then, we are to be about the Father's business.

4) Jews being in Jerusalem is God's doing. Their being there or not being there is not going to slow down or speed up God's timetable at all. It IS, after all, GOD'S TIMETABLE. He waits for no man when He wants to move emphatically. He could supernaturally draw all the Jews from all over the world to Jerusalem instantly as Philip in the NT traveled by Holy Spirit. Regardless, Jews will be there and are there because of God's doings--not their own, per se. imho.

5) Bible prophecy is soooooooooooo fascinating seeing so much of it come to pass with the daily headlines since Israel became a nation again in a day as prophecied in the Old Testament. And also as predicted there, they are using Hebrew--what had been essentially a very minority fading, dead language.

Anyway--getting sleepy. Cheers. Feel free to ask questions. Sometimes I can answer a few of them! LOL

You might also be interested in this thread--though it has a lot of naysayer noise and diatribe on it:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1274030/posts

ABOUT: PROPHETIC SIGNS OF THE END TIMES.


GOD'S BEST TO YOU AND YOURS.

OH, the survivors will have been protected by God and will be placed by Him where He wants them, I suspect. The MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH--rather literally, it seems.

BLESSINGS,

[T.L.Sink]

Speaking for myself, I don't accept the millenarian or
apocalyptic notions of certain fundamentalist Christians
with respect to the Jews. There is biblical (and ecclesiastical) support for universal salation. I suppot
the state of Israel because it's an ally, a democracy, and
represents a progressive aspect of Judeo-Christian Western
civilization in the midst of an ocean of Islamic tyranny
and oppression.