A Philosopher, a Mystic, and a Theologian Sound an Alarm for the Church

L'espresso ^ | February 7, 2005 | Sandro Magister

[maestro]

The worldwide ringing of church bells is forbidden.

/freedom of religion

[dangus]

A Philosopher, a Mystic, and a Theologian walk into a church...

[murphE]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.

[murphE]

Ping

[murphE]

Good stuff. Please ping.

[B Knotts]

A Philosopher, a Mystic, and a Theologian walk into a church...

LOL...I was gonna post (almost) the same thing! :-P

[B Knotts]

Fascinating. I try to read www.chiesa as often as possible. The content of this reads almost like a litany of complaints from the traditionalists who are in irregular relation to Rome. But it's not. We're talking about people "on the inside" with the same complaints.

It seems like many of those in the know think the time has come to start preparing for the next conclave; the battle has been joined.

[CatherineSiena]

The content of this reads almost like a litany of complaints from the traditionalists who are in irregular relation to Rome. But it's not. We're talking about people "on the inside" with the same complaints.

That's what struck me as well. In the English-speaking world, traditionalists are often maligned as if they were Holocaust deniers, whose arguments have no respectability in the Church. It's heartening to hear of traditionalists in Italy, who are in respected circles making the same criticisms that we are being told Faithful Catholics™ cannot make.

[CatherineSiena]

ping to a very interesting article

[sinkspur]

It's heartening to hear of traditionalists in Italy, who are in respected circles making the same criticisms that we are being told Faithful Catholics™ cannot make.

Dialogue is healthy and is required for a vital, living Church, if it is done inside the Church.

Seeking refuge in the SSPX and taking potshots at the validity of the Mass of Paul VI marginalize those who might otherwise make valid points.

[AlbionGirl]

nick, this is an excellent read, thanks for posting it.

k and H, thought you might find it interesting too, so I pinged, hope that's ok.

"The essays gathered here [...] were born of a unique impression and preoccupation: that the truths from which the Christian creed receives its identity and strength are becoming, as it were, befogged and enfeebled, through the widespread encroachment of a weak faith."

It has indeed been the Great Befogging, IMO.

[murphE]

"Since cause and effect cannot be seen with the naked eye, and there remains, therefore, conjecture on the matter of cause, I believe it legitimate for Catholics to be able to debate the nature of the cause(s), which have produced the effects in the Church of the present time--many of which are documented. If all aspects of a council are precluded from any such discussion, on the assumption that all aspects of all councils are somehow sacrosanct and divinely inspired, then we do a disservice to the pursuit of truth and a remedy, in my opinion. There are ambiguities and omissions in, and false translations of, documents of the recent council which have been used and misused by certain elements within the Church, with devastating results. Similarly, things never envisioned or commented upon by the council have been carried out, in the name of the council—the radical changes to the Sacred Liturgy, for instance. This has now gone on for four decades; one wonders if this will continue for centuries. It will, if we label those who raise the question as unfaithful, or those who object as dissenters." - Father Echert

EWTN Experts Forum

[ultima ratio]

"Seeking refuge in the SSPX and taking potshots at the validity of the Mass of Paul VI marginalize those who might otherwise make valid points."

Why should anybody care about being "marginalized"? Truth is truth. We take refuge in the SSPX because that is where the truth is found, not in the Novus Ordo Church.

[sinkspur]

Why should anybody care about being "marginalized"?

Because you have absolutely no place in any dialogue that might occur within the Church.

[jrny]

You know, I think sometimes you instigate these arguments. Now, this thread along with almost any other has to turn into an SSPX/anti-SSPX ad infinitum argument. I don't know about anyone else, but I am sick of it. I want to be able to discuss the good merits of these philosophers/theologians without getting into SSPX bashing. And, I am not a fan of the SSPX, mind you.

Can't we appreciate the subject matter in the article for what it is? Do we always have to bring up and denounce the SSPX on every thread that hints of tradition?

BTW, I sent you a private mailing to which you never replied.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Iota Unum can be purchased here:

http://www.angeluspress.org/

[jrny]

Is this a really deep and involved reading, or can I cover it quickly over a weekend?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

816 pages. How fast can you read? :-D

It looks intense. http://www.angeluspress.org/iota_unum.htm

[jrny]

Definitely not a weekend read for me. My wife, OTOH, could probably finish it in about 4 hours. I will certainly be purchasing it, but it will have to take a back seat to some of the spiritual reading I have planned for Lent.