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"The Passion" by Geza Vermes
Times Online ^ | March 20, 2005 | Peter Stanford

Posted on 03/21/2005 6:30:05 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant

click here to read article


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To: seamole
seamole, c'mon don't you realize that we moderns know so much better now than they did back then, better than the first generation after the apostles, better than the first bishops and popes, better than the Church fathers? /sarcasm
41 posted on 03/22/2005 9:40:57 AM PST by murphE (Each of the SSPX priests seems like a single facet on the gem that is the alter Christus. -Gerard. P)
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To: murphE; seamole

come on, don't ya know the Jews have 4,000 years of history compared to your measley 2,000.


42 posted on 03/22/2005 9:48:21 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: seamole

spoken as the true suppercessionist that you seem to be.


45 posted on 03/22/2005 10:06:15 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: seamole
G-d seemed to have left the picture.

He did? Did He tell you that? Was it like God sort of left the picture during the crusades and inquisitions? Please explain.

47 posted on 03/22/2005 10:23:27 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: seamole
I do not believe that the Jewish covenant has been repealed. I do believe that the Catholic Church is the "New Israel". These are not inconsistent statements, despite the anti-Christian hatemongering by the likes of the ADL and the anti-Orthodox camps within Judaism.

Sure they can be inconsistent. And I don't even belong to either of those groups. I don't even hate you. You are special. If somebody disagrees with you its hate or anti-catholic. You're wound up tight dude.

48 posted on 03/22/2005 10:26:35 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
I read Verme's The Religion of Jesus The Jew. Intereting.

I'd also recommend Hyam Maccoby, Revolution In Judaea.

Best....

49 posted on 03/22/2005 7:32:26 PM PST by onedoug
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To: onedoug

Thanx. I've read Maccoby's "Mythmaker", The Apostle Paul's invention of Christianity. Very good book.


50 posted on 03/22/2005 7:57:46 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: murphE
Very nice.

Hail, O virgin Theotokos, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the savior and redeemer of our souls.

51 posted on 03/22/2005 8:21:29 PM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: pascendi
Isn't it just so sad yet so beautiful? and so dang Catholic!
52 posted on 03/22/2005 9:09:17 PM PST by murphE (Each of the SSPX priests seems like a single facet on the gem that is the alter Christus. -Gerard. P)
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To: seamole
ai-yi-yi! same gnats! Once more:

Matthew does not include Mary in the narrative at the cross. Mark does not include Mary. Luke does not inlude Mary. She is not named as being at the cross in 3 out of 4 gospels....hence the reviewers comment that these omissions hardly justify her cult following. You are choosing to read her presence into their accounts. She is not mentioned. My inclination is to think she would have been there...but that is not in the synoptic accounts....hence the "cult" comment. (OTOH, if you consider Mary, mother of James, to be the same as the "Virgin Mary", then she was mentioned. But then you run into trouble in other ways.)

Regarding: "1) Again: There is no inconsistency, and 2) The information surrounding Mary is perfectly sufficient to justify the hyperdulia which over a billion Christians accord her: a) She is the Mother of God; b) She was present at the most significant moments of the Gospel; c) She is repeatedly called "blessed" and "blessed among women", even from God's own lips; d) She is never recorded sinning, but always is a paragon of Christian virtue; e) She was the first human being to believe that Jesus was the Christ; f) She was one of only 13 people present at Pentecost; g) If she had said "no" to God, all humanity would have been lost; h) Alone among Christian saints, Tradition dictates that she was assumed bodily into Heaven after death; i) The Revelation of John teaches that she is inextricably linked with the 2nd Coming of Christ; j) She has appeared in many apparitions and miracles since her Son's Ascension, attested to by many non-Christian, atheist and even anti-Christian witnesses."

1)We disagree about consistency. 2)Protestants and anyone else outside of Catholicism would disagree. a)She is the mother of God for those who believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. b)she is not specifically mentioned in the first 3 gospel accounts w/regard to the cross. She is not mentioned after the resurrection, which the Pope seemed to find noteworthy. c)"Repeatedly"? Anywhere besides twice in the Gospel of Luke? (neither of which is from "God's lips" BTW) d)There is very little biblical info about her at all. Because we are not told about the sins of certain biblical characters does not make them sinless. e) She must have been unaware in Luke 2:39 - 50. f) Do we venerate the other 12 in the same way? g)That's according to those who believe the virgin birth story, which has, at least, another postful of problems associated with it. h) I know..it's a catholic thing, i) refresh me on that one j)Many people claim to see apparitions of all kinds of things.

53 posted on 03/22/2005 9:10:19 PM PST by 1 spark (Jeremiah 16:19)
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To: murphE

Yes, it is very sad.


56 posted on 03/22/2005 9:38:23 PM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: murphE
Beautiful too. Sorry; forgot.

Pain and beauty in this life are inextricable.

57 posted on 03/22/2005 9:40:19 PM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: pascendi

Have you noticed a marked increase in the attacks on the Blessed Mother lately?


58 posted on 03/22/2005 9:44:05 PM PST by murphE (Each of the SSPX priests seems like a single facet on the gem that is the alter Christus. -Gerard. P)
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To: murphE
Yeah. I wonder why.
59 posted on 03/22/2005 11:44:20 PM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: murphE; seamole; te lucis
All attacks on the Catholic Church can be reduced or traced to an attack on the Incarnation, because the Incarnation itself was the decisive attack on Original Sin.

The remedy to Original Sin being, of course, born of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Yet still, the right-wing-liberal Americanist Catholics can't seem to perceive the engine which drives our present crisis... can't see past the lies of theories of invincible ignorance which in and of themselves arise out of a denial or suppression of the reality of Original Sin. Illustrating yet again that the children of this world are wiser in their generation than the children of light.

"I am at your side and within you, provided that your faith is the light which shines upon you in these unhappy days. May your zeal make you famished for the glory and the honor of Jesus Christ. Fight, children of light, you, the few who can see. For now is the time of all times, the end of all ends."

O Mary, conceived without Original Sin, pray for us sinners who have recourse to thee.

60 posted on 03/23/2005 12:17:31 AM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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