Posted on 05/28/2005 1:04:07 PM PDT by jer33 3
Does anyone have a personal testimony of how they left the mainline or International/Boston Church of Christ? And are you familiar with the doctrinal teachings?
Quester said:
"In other words, ... No works are part of the salvation event."
You are making an assumption that is not taught in the Word of God. I have already shown that belief is a work "of God", meaning it is a work required by God. If no works are necessary, then belief is not necessary. Such is a necessary conclusion of your argument.
Yes, we are not saved by works of which "man should boast". Those are meritorious works, and you have yet to prove that baptism is such a work. Only one passage in the New Testament ties baptism to being a work, and it says that baptism is a work "of God".
The first statement is a logical statement. If A(belief) is true and B(baptism) is true, then C(salvation) is true. By necessity, if either A(belief) or B(baptism) is false, then C(salvation) must be false.
You can twist the logic all you want, but it doesn't change the truth of the passage.
You are basing your argument upon human logic ... and a particular type of human logic at that (i.e. you are deducing something that is not explicitly stated).
I would bet that God isn't bound by our systems of human logic.
God made us logical, reasoning beings. We are taught to "rightly divide the Word of Truth". Are you saying we are to do that by being illogical? That doens't make sense.
No, it is water baptism. The passage, Col. 2:12, says "Buried with him in baptism". The only baptism in which there is a burial in something is water baptism.
Quester said: "In other words, ... No works are part of the salvation event."
You are making an assumption that is not taught in the Word of God. I have already shown that belief is a work "of God", meaning it is a work required by God. If no works are necessary, then belief is not necessary. Such is a necessary conclusion of your argument.
Let me clarify my statement ... Paul says that there are no human works involved in the accomplishment of our salvation.
As you have said ... "Belief is a work of God."
However ... that does not change the fact that Paul says that ... "our salvation is not of (human) works" ... verse 9. The description of these works as meritorious is not in the text. That (meritorious) is your word ... not Paul's.
Going on ...
... that it (our salvation) is not (in any way) of ourselves ... verse 8.
... that our salvation is the handiwork of God ... and that we have been recreated (saved) to perform good works ... which God desires that we do.
Baptism is not a work of which a human can boast, since it is required by God. Therefore, it is not included in the works that Paul is talking about in Ephesians.
God made us logical, reasoning beings. We are taught to "rightly divide the Word of Truth". Are you saying we are to do that by being illogical? That doens't make sense.
I am, simply, saying that God is not bound to conform to human logic.
Just because something is logical ... doesn't make it true.
For example ... using the same deductive logic that you are using, ... the Catholics have concluded that Mary is the mother of God.
This is how they do it ...They say ... Mary is the mother of Jesus. (true)It's logical (from a deductive standpoint).
They say ... Jesus is God. (true)
... therefore, they say ... Mary is the mother of God. (not true)
It simply isn't true.
The only baptism in which there is a burial in something is water baptism.
This is a presumption.
You cannot say that baptism in the Holy Spirit does not involve submersion (burial) in the Holy Spirit.
In fact ... I would say that it does.
I take Jesus at His Word. Since he said that belief and baptism are required for salvation, it is the Truth. Nothing you say can make it untrue.
As for the Catholic teaching that Mary is the mother of God, that is not possible since God is eternal. Yes, Jesus is God, but she is His mother only in the human sense, since He was also completely human at the same time when on this earth.
Baptism is not a work of which a human can boast, since it is required by God.
You can't support this conclusion from scripture.
It is not a presumption. Ephesians 4:4 says that there is "one baptism". Since Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize and said that baptism was "to the end of the world" (Matthew 28:18-20), and since the Holy Spirit baptism is only administered by Jesus, then the baptism in Ephesians 4 is water baptism. Water baptism is taught as a burial into Christ's death (Romans 6:3). Does it teach we stay buried? No. We are raised "to walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4). The baptism in Col. 2:12 is also water baptism.
Where in the Bible does it teach we are buried into the Holy Spirit, as you claim?
Yes I can. Belief is a work "of God", therefore required by God for salvation. Paul clearly states, as you well pointed out, that belief is necessary for salvation. Therefore, belief can't be a work of which a human can boast. Baptism is also a "working of God, therefore required by God. If you claim that baptism is a work of which we can boast, then belief is also such a work, since they are both works of God.
I take Jesus at His Word. Since he said that belief and baptism are required for salvation, it is the Truth. Nothing you say can make it untrue.
I take Jesus at His word, as well. And I strive mightily not to add (or subtract) from it.
Jesus said that ... if you believe and are baptized, you will be saved.
Jesus did not one time say that ... if you are not baptized, you will be lost.
And rightly so ... since we have an example from scripture of a man who was not baptized (the thief on the cross) ... who was saved (i.e. not lost).
You can only get to where you are by deducing (rightly or wrongly) from the first statement.
OTOH, ... Jesus did say explicitly (on several ocassions) that ... if you do not believe ... that you will be lost.
The thief on the cross argument is not valid. He was not under the New Covenant when he died. There is the possibility he had been baptized by John. But the most important point is that Jesus had the power to forgive sin while on this earth.
It is not a presumption. Ephesians 4:4 says that there is "one baptism". Since Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize and said that baptism was "to the end of the world" (Matthew 28:18-20), and since the Holy Spirit baptism is only administered by Jesus, then the baptism in Ephesians 4 is water baptism.
Don't you believe that Jesus functions (spiritually) in the world today ?
Is He (Jesus) not in you ?
Where in the Bible does it teach we are buried into the Holy Spirit, as you claim?
What does the word 'baptism' mean ?
I am not arguing otherwise.
It is a gift that is given and we can not take any credit.
I am in no way taking credit for my baptism. This is a common misconception (or blatant misrepresentation) among those who disagree. As Luther stated when asked if baptism is a 'work', he said "Yes, but it's God's work, not man's".
The fact that Joshua had no part in his cleansing indicates that this work was totally done by God's grace.
Yes, wonderful verses. But this the same Joshua who stated:
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
....
Joshua 24:24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
Obedience to God was all that was required.
The thief on the cross argument is not valid. He was not under the New Covenant when he died.
So he was under the 'Old Covenant' ? ... so he had to work for his salvation ?
There is the possibility he had been baptized by John.
Guess it didn't take.
But the most important point is that Jesus had the power to forgive sin while on this earth.
Do you not believe that Jesus has the power to forgive sins on earth today ?
As Luther stated when asked if baptism is a 'work', he said "Yes, but it's God's work, not man's".
I would agree with this statement.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.