Any Ex-Church of Christ at FR

[jkl1122]

Baptism is an immersion into something. The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God, and in that way, dwells within Christians. We are not immersed into the Holy Spirit.

[jkl1122]

The Bible tells us how to be saved. Jesus does not forgive sins any other way.

I am going to take a break from here for a while to get some work done. I will be back later.

[asformeandformyhouse]

As Luther stated when asked if baptism is a 'work', he said "Yes, but it's God's work, not man's". I would agree with this statement.

Which is why I don't include baptism in the 'boastful works' category of Ephesians 2 - which seems to be the most often cited passage attempting to prove that baptism is a work and therefore not necessary. As I cited before, even faith is defined as a work by Paul.

[Quester]

We are not immersed into the Holy Spirit.

You are quite sure ?

I am not afraid to say that I don't know as much as you.

[Quester]

The Bible tells us how to be saved. Jesus does not forgive sins any other way.

You are so sure of these things of God ...

I don't think that I would presume so ...

[jkl1122]

The Bible doesn't teach we are immersed into the Holy Spirit. It does teach we are to be immersed into water. The necessary conclusion is that when Scripture teaches that we are buried in baptism, it must be water baptism.

[jkl1122]

Jesus said we can only get to heaven through Him. The way that is provided for us to do that is by obeying the Gospel. No other way is provided.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Ephesians 4:4 says that there is "one baptism"***

But John said there are two...

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


***since the Holy Spirit baptism is only administered by Jesus***

To all believers, right?

[jkl1122]

The baptism of fire that John is referring to is a fulfillment of a prophecy from Joel. It was fulfilled at Pentecost (Acts 2) and later with Cornelius and his family (Acts 10).

Paul's mention of "one baptism" in Ephesians 4 is clearly the baptism that puts us into the "one body", which is the baptism administered to the people in Acts 2:38-41.

When a person believes, has repented of their sins, confessed that Christ is the Son of God, and been baptized for the remission of sins, they receive the Holy Spirit(Acts 2:38).

[jer33 3]

The thief on the cross argument is not valid. He was not under the New Covenant when he died. There is the possibility he had been baptized by John. But the most important point is that Jesus had the power to forgive sin while on this earth.

Jesus Christ died before the thief on the cross.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Keep reading, the answer is in verse 15.***

Additionally, keep reading to...

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Do you see this??? Paul claimed to have given "birth" to them through the gospel - but he denies that Christ sent him to baptize.




Therefore the new birth must not come through baptism, but through the gospel.

Look at this...


"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."


It is the gospel that is the power to save those who believe it.



And what is Paul's definition of the gospel???

I Cor 15
"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,"

[jkl1122]

But Jesus told the thief he would be with him in paradise before he died, therefore, he was saved at that point in time, not after Christ died. Also, the thief obviously died before Christ was buried and resurrected, and since we are baptized into Christ's death and raised like his resurrection (Romans 6:3-4), that baptism could not have been in effect until after the resurrection.

[jkl1122]

Paul does not separate baptism from the Gospel. He separates the roles of preaching and baptizing, which is quite different from what you are claiming.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Paul does not separate baptism from the Gospel***


1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:


1 Corinthians 1:14
I thank God that I baptized none of you,


1 Corinthians 4:15
...for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.



Looks like a clear distinction to me.

[jer33 3]

The baptism of fire that John is referring to is a fulfillment of a prophecy from Joel.

John mentioned both the baptism of the Spirit and fire. Does this not reference the baptism of the Holy Spirit for every believer and the fire for every unbeliever?

[jkl1122]

Did you even read my post? The distinction is between the acts of preaching and baptizing, not the Gospel itself and baptism. Baptism is part of our response to the Gospel message.

[jkl1122]

Once a person becomes a Christian, he/she receives the Holy Spirit. How does this come about? According to Acts 2:38, it happens after repentance and baptism.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***When a person believes, has repented of their sins, confessed that Christ is the Son of God, and been baptized for the remission of sins, they receive the Holy Spirit(Acts 2:38).***

Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before baptism. When Peter saw that he and those with him had received the Spirit he said...

"Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

He saw clearly that they had been born again - proof being the reception of the Spirit.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



Is baptism important? YES! Is it a requirement for being born again - No. The story of Cornelius proves that.

[jer33 3]

Paul's mention of "one baptism" in Ephesians 4 is clearly the baptism that puts us into the "one body", which is the baptism administered to the people in Acts 2:38-41.

How do you know that he is referencing Acts 2:38-41?

[jkl1122]

It does not prove what you are saying. The Holy Spirit came up on Cornelius "while he(Peter) was still speaking". You can't be a Christian without belief, and you can't have belief without hearing the Word of God. Peter was not done teaching the Gospel when Cornelius started speaking in tongues. This is a fulfillment of the prophecy in Joel.