Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
Hey, wait a minute! :) You know I love my Bible. What are these teachings in Romans 7 that I don't like?
again, repeating, we do NOT consider fellow Christians to be akin to terrorirsts. I disagree with your views on certain theological aspects, but you do believe in the Triune God and do ascribe to the Nicene creed.
The fact that even the great St. Paul still had to fight against the temptations of the flesh - despite his regenerated status. In other words, God did not take control of St. Paul's will to desire the things of the spirit entirely. He had to battle, in fear and trembling. The path to Christ is a narrow one, FK. St. Thomas Aquinas said that grace does not overwhelm nature. We must continue to fight - it is a slow process that CAN end in failure. This is not in line with Calvinist teachings.
Regards
I would suggest that you have the emphasis on the wrong part of the text. Peter is talking to believers. Please keep in mind that 2 Peter 3 is comparing now to the great flood. The "not wanting anyone to perish" refers to believers who must come to repentance.
"...More cosmic game playing, Harley"
And precisely who is it WHO brings us to repentance?
"and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. 1 Peter 2:8
"The "not wanting anyone to perish" refers to believers who must come to repentance."
Seems to me +Peter could have said that. Greek is a marvelously precise language, you know. Its some of the more recent translations and interpretations which are a bit strained.
Do you have a verse. I'm not Mr. Answerman but I can give it a good shot. I will say there are a handful of problematic verses on this side of the tracks but they are significantly fewer than on the other side. I know. I've been there and I'm parroting all the verses that have troubled me for 30+ years. I don't get an explanation of what it is to be sealed with the Holy Spirit, what a new heart and new spirit means, how a Christian is born again, or what it means to be a "slave to righteousness". I throw out literally hundreds of verses (like my tagline) and all I get is, "Well, it's a mystery." All I hear is that we have "free will" although the Bible really doesn't state that.
Here's another:
What is He guarding that you have entrusted (past tense) to Him?
He did say it. I would suggest you are misreading what he is stating. I read the "all come to repentence" as referring back to Peter's statement "patient with you".
In the end all that ANY of us can do is look to our own salvation. We can rest in our faith trusting that Christ will keep what we have entrusted to Him. We’re the only one who truly knows our hearts and attitude towards God, how we came to know the Lord and how God has kept us on the path through all these years.
I would say that we find Christ in our weaknesses. It is recognizing we are unable to keep God’s standards that make us fall to our knees and beg for mercy. Anything that we do is because of Christ-not ourselves.
The Deposit of Faith. What else did Paul give Timothy? Paul layed his hands upon him and conferred to him the Holy Spirit, giving him authority to preach and teach, to bind and loosen, to forgive sins, and all of the other things that bishops were to do. Thus, the Holy Spirit will guard this power given to Timothy as well as the Deposit of Faith, the Apostolic Teachings.
Regards
As believers, yes. We SHOULD learn lessons and grow stronger, but I know of people whom the opposite had happened. The point of "testing" us is pretty clear. Some will be found wanting.
In the end all that ANY of us can do is look to our own salvation. We can rest in our faith trusting that Christ will keep what we have entrusted to Him. We’re the only one who truly knows our hearts and attitude towards God, how we came to know the Lord and how God has kept us on the path through all these years.
We should help others, but we can't know their status with God. I think sometimes we don't even know our OWN status! Sin clouds our vision. I am not so sure that people fully know their own hearts and attitudes. It is much too easy to "sincerely" think you are on the right path. Consider all of the various cults, members who vividly believe they are heaven-bound and all else are going to hell. They sincerely believe this - and they fool themselves. Man can very easily do this. That is why we should approach Jesus more humbly - rather than as a person "already saved" for heaven.
Some believe simply throwing a few coins in the collection plate is enough while others flagellate themselves and literally hang themselves on crosses one a year to “share” in Christ’s suffering. How much is enough?
To the first, like I said before, people can convince themselves quite easily of their righteousness or status in God's eyes. Of the latter, the Church has always said that bodily mortification should be done under the supervision of a spiritual advisor. Too easy to become proud in those or get carried away. I have found that each culture views such things differently, so I don't look down too much on such. I find it strange, but if it brings them closer to God, then so be it.
I would say that we find Christ in our weaknesses. It is recognizing we are unable to keep God’s standards that make us fall to our knees and beg for mercy. Anything that we do is because of Christ-not ourselves.
That is true, but only the first step. We cannot hope to come to Christ unless we put aside the desires of the flesh, as Paul tells us. It is one thing to say abstractly "It's all God", and quite another to give until it hurts, or go out of your way to help someone else, or to serve another in humility, even when they treat you poorly. All of that is being Christ-like. It is much more than recognizing that God deserves all praise!
According to scripture these were all “unbelievers” that God saved from Pharaoh and never trusted God for His salvation
That is an "after-action" report! However, after all of the Jews came through the Red Sea, didn't they commit to the covenant when Moses brought them the Decalogue? Weren't they solemnly affirming the Lord God and to follow His Commandments? Didn't they build the Ark of the Covenant for Him? Didn't they SEE the power of God, not only in the Reed Sea crossing, but in the manna from heaven and water from the rock? Yet, they continued to grumble - they lost their faith. All of these "saved" people were punished by NOT seeing the promised Land (which Christians see as a typology of our journey to heaven).
No, Paul is pretty clear that those Jews who died were not unsaved heathen rabble going along for the show. They were "SAVED" Jews, saved from the sin of slavery of Egypt through the waters of "regeneration"... However, MANY fell away - they built a Golden Calf, they complained, they worshiped idols. And they died without finding "rest". Paul sets this up as an example to persevere. Look at 1 Cor 10:12 - this is not being said to unbelievers!
Regards
An “after-action” report??? That’s a new one. I didn’t realize God gave reports to us. :O)
You are adding your interpretation and assuming they “lost” their faith. God divided the sea, led them by a cloud, fed and water them, and still they wanted more from God. They questioned God’s sovereignty (“Can God do X???") and never believed that God was able to do the thing He had promise. There He was in full view on Mount Sinai surrounded by the cloud and still they made a golden calf and claimed THAT was the God who brought them out of Egypt. If there is any case of man’s uttered depravity it was at this moment. Even after God’s righteous wrath smote the “stoutest” ones they still rebelled. We are told in Psalms 78:22:
What then is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 12? It is simply the outward call of Paul telling people they must believe and to examine themselves.
BTW-And less I get the "Ah-Ha. Gotcha nasty old Calvinist. Doesn’t Psalms 78 indicate the Jews could repent to God.” All of this is shown as a historical lesson for record. It is an “outward call”. As we see later, God tells these people that they will die in the wilderness and their children will come into the land. God raised up the next generation that, for a time, followed after Him fulfilling His promise. It wasn't based upon the choice of the children.
Assuming by "righteous" you mean what I would call "saved", then 'no', he is not a wicked person, he has just done a wicked thing. He does not become as Paul describes in your passage. There Paul describes all people before salvation.
Does Paul literally mean that no men are righteous, or is he merely quoting from the Psalms to PROVE the beginning of Romans 3:1 ...
Yes, Paul literally means that no men are righteous before God on their own.
If Paul literally means what he is saying, as you claim, then no one is righteous, vs. what other Scriptures say that men ARE righteous. And certainly, Jesus is ALSO righteous. By this argument, then, we don't understand Paul as saying that all men are wicked and no man seeks out the Lord. Time and time again, the Scripture exhorts and rewards those who do. Now, suddenly, no one seeks out the Lord?
No one is righteous in his nature when born. All of the elect are righteous in God's sight after salvation. No wicked person would ever seek out the Lord. God gives grace to those whom He will, and then they seek the Lord.
FK: "We do know what Paul thought about Mary. In all of his Biblical writings he never made a single exception for her being sinless."
An argument from silence is a lousy argument. ... If Christians believe that Mary was sinless - and no one disagreed, then perhaps Paul did teach that she was - or perhaps Mary was still alive and Paul wouldn't teach it out of humility for Mary's sake.
But your whole argument is based on silence, isn't it? The standard for you is much stricter because you are making the positive argument. You are saying "look at all this non-evidence, therefore it must be so." :) Just in your above, you use "if" for two ideas, and "perhaps" for two conclusions.
Paul does NOT say that Jesus is the only sinless person in Romans 3. Thus, Paul (and the Spirit) leave room for exceptions to the universal "all".
An argument from silence is a lousy argument. ... :)
Sure! The whole Bible is God's "report" to us about His love.
You are adding your interpretation and assuming they “lost” their faith
I think it is clear that they DID lose their faith. Does the Scripture report that some of the Jews did not believe that the Decalogue was from God? Did some of the Jews sit the covenant agreement, the sprinkling of the blood by Moses? No, they were all there. They all crossed, they all were saved from the Egyptians (sin), they all promised to obey the commandments. Modern day Christians do the same thing today, brother... Can you deny that some believe with all of their heart that they are saved, and then fall away, just as the Jews did in the desert? Your quotes from the Psalms merely explain the "latter" falling away. But those same people all agreed to follow the Commandments and they all came through the Reed Sea. They were all "saved"...
Paul is perfectly consistent with Psalms 78 in that the Jews lack of faith was evident in their grumbling. As you can see by Psalms 78 it plainly states that they “did not believe in God” and they “did not trust” Him.
AFTERWARDS. They first DID and later did NOT.
As we see later, God tells these people that they will die in the wilderness and their children will come into the land. God raised up the next generation that, for a time, followed after Him fulfilling His promise. It wasn't based upon the choice of the children.
I would think there was an element of choice present, but God has His own agenda. My point, however, is that the "saved" can and do fall away, not about God's free will to elect whom He will. Paul uses those Jews as an example to beware, not to fall away, a REAL possibility that Paul warns of in 1 Cor 10 and Hebrews 3,4. Besides those specific Jews, Paul tells the Corinthians and Galatians that certain actions will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. In each case, Paul is talking about people who were "saved" - but the salvation is not done yet.
Regards
You're right, Kosta, I wasn't clear on your take. Thanks for the info. And, just to be sure, you are saying that Mary could have sinned, but all through her life she chose not to, so she was sinless in terms of "performance"?
Jo said: "Regarding 1Jo 5:18, I would say John is talking about willfully sinning in a grievious manner, not the smaller sins of our daily lives. I admit that John is not very clear on this issue in this epistle - first, he admits we all sin, then he says that those who sin are of the devil. A minor sin, one that John would not consider "deadly", would not turn the man to evil, so perhaps this is what John is discussing.
This is a confusing verse. It looks like Jo's thinking is along the lines of Matthew Henry. Here is what he said: (Kolo, I pinged you re: our "demon discussion")
"Here we have,
I. A recapitulation of the privileges and advantages of sound Christian believers. 1. They are secured against sin, against the fulness of its dominion or the fulness of its guilt: We know that whosoever is born of God (and the believer in Christ is born of God, v. 1) sinneth not (v. 18), sinneth not with that fulness of heart and spirit that the unregenerate do (as was said ch. iii. 6, 9), and consequently not with that fulness of guilt that attends the sins of others; and so he is secured against that sin which is unavoidably unto death, or which infallibly binds the sinner over unto the wages of eternal death; the new nature, and the inhabitation of the divine Spirit thereby, prevent the admission of such unpardonable sin.
2. They are fortified against the devil's destructive attempts: He that is begotten of God keepeth himself, that is, is enabled to guard himself, and the wicked one toucheth him not (v. 18), that is, that the wicked one may not touch him, namely, to death. It seems not to be barely a narration of the duty or the practice of the regenerate; but an indication of their power by virtue of their regeneration.
They are thereby prepared and principled against the fatal touches, the sting, of the wicked one; he touches not their souls, to infuse his venom there as he does in others, or to expel that regenerative principle which is an antidote to his poison, or to induce them to that sin which by the gospel constitution conveys an indissoluble obligation to eternal death. He may prevail too far with them, to draw them to some acts of sin; but it seems to be the design of the apostle to assert that their regeneration secures them from such assaults of the devil as will bring them into the same case and actual condemnation with the devil.
I don't believe the Catholic Church teaches any different in that regard; in fact Mary's free will is a very important part of Catholic mariology. It is a misunderstanding of the doctrine of Immaculate Conception to say that Mary was incapable of sinning. Right, Jo?
This is the explanation offered by Calvin:
Hence we see the childish folly of those who represent this passage to be opposed to predestination. “If God” say they, “wishes all men indiscriminately to be saved, it is false that some are predestined by his eternal purpose to salvation, and others to perdition.” They might have had some ground for saying this, if Paul were speaking here about individual men; although even then we should not have wanted the means of replying to their argument; for, although the will of God ought not to be judged from his secret decrees, when he reveals them to us by outward signs, yet it does not therefore follow that he has not determined with himself what he intends to do as to every individual man.This is the relevant passage (1 Timothy 1, 2):But I say nothing on that subject, because it has nothing to do with this passage; for the Apostle simply means, that there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation; because God wishes that the gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception. Now the preaching of the gospel gives life; and hence he justly concludes that God invites all equally to partake salvation. But the present discourse relates to classes of men, and not to individual persons; for his sole object is, to include in this number princes and foreign nations.
I give thanks who hath strengthened me, even to Christ Jesus our Lord, for that he hath counted me faithful, putting me in the ministry; 13 Who before was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and contumelious. But I obtained the mercy of God, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 Now the grace of our Lord hath abounded exceedingly with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus. 15 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief.16 But for this cause have I obtained mercy: that in me first Christ Jesus might shew forth all patience, for the information of them that shall believe in him unto life everlasting. 17 Now to the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 18 This precept I commend to thee, O son Timothy; according to the prophecies going before on thee, that thou war in them a good warfare, 19 Having faith and a good conscience, which some rejecting have made shipwreck concerning the faith. 20 Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I have delivered up to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Chapter 2
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: 6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.
Let us summarize. Three examples of sinners are given
Calvin's attempt to cram his theological speculation of limited atonement into this context is nothing but fraud. It would be excusable to skim 1 Timothy 2:1-5 alone, discover that it is talking about kings and hastily conclude that "all" means "men of all social class". But Calvin has just gone over the first chapter and commented (feebly but lengthily) on Hymeneus and Alexander. He saw the context. He just wants to lead us away from it.
Correct, that is the teaching of the Gree Church and the Latin Church, the details of which are a source of one of the major theological disagreements between us and the Latins and its roots are in +Augustine's concept of the "original sin."
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