Posted on 01/19/2006 12:33:10 PM PST by NYer
I agree, I think some of the numbers in this article are also pumped up.
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Well. I can't say I disagree. :)
It does seem to me that Pope Benedict XVI is moving in that direction, however.
Pope John Paul II, with the able assistance of Josef Cardinal Ratzinger and B. (?) Cardinal Gantin did the honors on SSPX in 1988 in Ecclesia Dei. They are already declared excommunicated schismatics, despite their defense that: "OOOOOHHH, don't you see? It was an emergency! If old Marcel had not spit in the face of John Paul II by defying his direct orders and consecrating the Econe 4, we SSPXers would not have gotten our way. I mean, we had no choice! The pope was openly disobeying Marcel. What else could we do???"
Can we create a Catholic Hierarchical Action Committee to which Catholics can contribute toward the end of electing bornaCatholic at the next conclave??? I like bornacatholic's style in that last paragraph particularly. It has a real papal ring to it. Even if bornacatholic is a married layman (bac is a man, yes???), we can figure out a rationale for the next conclave to get around that rule.
Visualize: "We announce to you a great joy! We have a pope! B. A. Catholic who has chosen to be known as Pope Torquemada in honor of the first saint to be summarily canonized after the new Holy Father's election. The Holy Father wants you to know that all curial resignations have been accepted, that the laity will take charge of some of the critical offices. New congregations are to be created. Ninenot will head the Congregation for Membership in the Faith, no one to be listed without proof adequate to Ninenot of orthodox Catholic commitment, knowledge and zeal. The Holy Office is to be renamed the Congregation for Sacred Discipline and will be chaired by Black Elk. Executions in the traditional fashion (prolonged form after appropriate forms of inquiry and preliminary discipline shall commence on the first Friday after this announcement and trials will be held thereafter beginning in six months. Transcripts of the testimony of the deceased miscreants will be edited and admitted at trial only as ordered by the Holy Father. The Congregation for Disciplinary Engineering and Neat New Toys will be headed by Arrogant Bustard. An appropriate program of Gregorian Chant shall be provided by Desdemona who will chair the new Congregation for Sacred Music. Upon her approval of specific music, the use of such music by individual members of the Faithful shall be protected activity and, in the absence of satire or disrespect by the performer, shall exempt the performer from rack, rope, stake and probably even pit and pendulum." Watch this space for further announcements!
Vos omnes?
Any adult male Catholic can (in theory) be elected Pope.
>> Any adult male Catholic can (in theory) be elected Pope. <<
Not exactly. The requirement is that the man be eligible to become a bishop, since the job is "bishop of Rome," which would require that he be eligible to become a priest. There was a conclave in the middle ages in which they were hopelessly deadlocked. In came a mere brother, who had been told by God to journey to Rome. They siezed him, ordained him, and made him Pope. Then they decided they didn't like him, and abused him badly. He reigned but one year, and was one of the very few medieval popes to be sainted. I do not recall his name.
Thanks for the clarification.
Oh, cut it out!
Everyone here knows it's BlackElk or bust at the next conclave!
Omnes V'omnes. That's plural.
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:) A "Religion" thread with a sense of humor? It can't be!
It is Friday, after all.
If you want to get really theoretical, there's no requirement that he be an adult male. Pope James I, anyone? ;-)
Current law restricts eligibility to cardinals, however.
LOL! Tom's the one who plans to be Pope.
You need to study the SSPX history a little more for some of these points, for others you are playing semantics."Seperate heirarchy, seperate catechism, seperate Mass, ..."True of the Neos, not true of the SSPX. The catechism? The same the Church used for centuries. The Mass? The same the Church used for centuries. The hierarchy? The same Rome gave them until 1988 and even then only in a state of necessity, not a total change of theology, liturgy, catechism and belief.
You cannot deny the SSPX is using a different Mass Rite than the current normative Rite. Your basis for your argument is that the Rite they use, which you must admit is different than the current normative one, is one that was used previously. The Neocatechumenal Way could try to make a similar argument, that their Rite harkens back to less formal days of the early Church. It's still a fact that the Neocatechumenal Way's Rite is different than the approved Rite, and its still a fact that the SSPX refuses to use the current normative Rite of the Mass.
Re hierarchy: I assume you are willing to concede they have a separate hierarchy now, and that this has been true since 1988. However, the SSPX was setting themselves up outside the normal hierarchy long before the Consecrations. That is not always a problem, many orders have separate hierarchies. However, at times it can become a matter of grave concern when that separate hierarchy begins to move them away from the body of the Church. It appears to me this is happening with the Neocatechumenal Way, and it also appeared to me long ago that the SSPX began preparing its adherents for schism long before that schism occurred. You can differ with me on the last point, and it can't exactly be proven in a court of law. However, it is quite plain that both organizations have hierarchies separate from the ordinary hierarchy. Both can stand alone if they decide to.
Re catechism, they may have used a traditional catechism, but again, it had to be specific ones (pre '62). Moreover, in their their teaching from it followed their own program. Ask someone who was SSPX at the time what the catechism teaching was like. Even today, a rejection of the post '62 catechisms is a part of SSPX doctrine.
It has never been acceptable to justify disobedience by saying "the same as the Church used for centuries." The Orthdox could justify their split by saying their belief was what they'd used for centuries. The Old Catholics could justify their split by saying that their rejection of Papal infallibility was the same as their belief had been for centuries. Fact is, one cannot simply justify disobedience by pointing to something done for a long time. In general, the SSPX has much better arguments than this one.
And regardless, the fact remains that IMHO the Neocatechumenal Way is currently very near the slippery slope that the SSPX fell off of.
patent
Not me. Pope Benedict said our Church would be much smaller in the future. Time for him to start swinging the scythe and start lopping off the heads of all of these schismatic heretics.Two things. First, there is a vast difference between expecting a smaller Church and hoping for a smaller Church. Your verbiage makes me think you lean farther to the latter than I would be comfortable with.
Second, they are clearly not schismatic. The Pope's statements, if nothing else, cannot help but make that clear, and you have no business contending you can override his statements about them. He determines who is schismatic or not, and where he has ruled you cannot contradict, or you are guilty of the same thing you wish to accuse them of.
So long as the Holy Father continues to work with them and recognize them, they are not schismatic.
As to heresy, I'll look forward to your proof for that statement. Please prove the order is heretical.
Honestly, as a faithful Catholic who has seen AmChurch run my Faith into the ground, I can tell you that much of the time I am frustrated and angry at the refusal of the Papacy to apply discipline that could (would?) put us back on the path to ecclesiastical sanity.Me too.
patent
Should it not be "Benedicat," Antoninus?
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