Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[adiaireton8]

It is our RC FRiends who think we must die in a state of sinlessness in order to merit heaven.

That is patently false.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Protestants know that ... our redemption has already occurred by Christ's sacrifice on the cross for our sins.

But you don't know that, since you believe that Jesus did not die for everyone, but only for the elect. And you have no way of knowing whether you are elect. Therefore, you don't know whether Jesus died for you.

-A8

[Quix]

Other Catholics teach a more recent concept: that of limited inerrancy.
= = = =

NOW A-G! That has to be utter balderdash. I mean. It's been stated hereon by the most . . . something . . . of experts . . . that . . .

The Romanists have been declared to have NEVER EVER CHANGED A SINGLE SHRED OF THEIR fossilized traditions of man piles of DOGMA in the slightest degree--no flip-flops--no error--no changes--from the moment Peter heard the cock crow the 3rd time until the moment I type these words . . .

. . . well . . . more or less . . .

Obviously, that quote from the pristine source has to be anti-Romanists planted error. The Romanists cannot change, flip-flop or err, by definition. The magistrumpupum would never tolerate it--by definition. The long sordid--er sodded--er--sanctimonious tradition is proudly pontifically pure . . . by definition.

Of course the dictionary with all THOSE daffynitions seems to come from a most questionable and rather warm place but that's pure conjecture.

/satire

[Running On Empty]

I believe this is beyond "satire".

[betty boop]

It is our RC FRiends who think we must die in a state of sinlessness in order to merit heaven.

Jeepers, Dr. Eckleburg, that's news to me. Were this true, heaven would be empty. Were it possible for a person to "die in a state of sinlessness" by virtue of personal effort, then Christ's death on the Cross would have been unnecessary. Even the great saints were sinners.

[Quix]

Still other Catholic theologians and scholars have agreed with liberal Protestants by rejecting the inerrancy of the Bible.
= = = =

OH, DEAR ME! OH, NO! CALL OUT THE FIRE BRIGADE! MORE BALDERDASH! Now, Dear Heart, it's been made abundantly and redundantly redundantly clear clear again and again and again and again hereon . . .

ALLLLLLLLLLLL ROMANISTS from the time of the 3rd cock's crow hitting Peter on the head until I type these words . . .

that NOT ONE ROMANIST HAS EVER DISAGREED WITH OR HAD A SINGLE IDLE THOUGHT DIFFERENTLY FROM ANOTHER PURELY SANCTIFIED [as alllllll are from the first whiff of holy water] . . . sanctified . . . er sanctimonious ROMANIST. NOT ONE DIFFERENT THOUGHT.

ALLLLLLLLLL HAVE BEEN 1,000% IN LOCKSTEP AGREEMENT IN UTTER PRISTINE UNITY begging, beseeching, plastering the Protestants with pontifical implorations to rejoin the utterly unified fold so that Papa's robs will be unruffled and Mary's Mona Lisa smile can continue unchanged, unaltered, uncontested for eons more in flawless robotic submission thereto.

So, please, get the historical revisionism revised. Ignore the facts! Support the fantasy, the illusion, the delusion that no Romanist has ever disagreed with another Romanist; that no Romanist has ever had the slightest hint of a different daffynition of dogma and dunderheadedness.

Onward Christian Rooooowwwwwwbots marching as to war.
With the dogma of man's traditions ever lowering the bar.

Onward Christian Roooooowwwwwbots ever marching mindlessly;
Marching, marching, marching proudly pontificating puffery

Ever unified; all their white robes flowing in unison--now right, now left; now up; now down;

March, march, marching down the eons
Never an original thought from Pope to peons

Onward Christian roooowwwwwwbots marching unto law;
Never ever realizing the lockstep legalisms in the raw.

. . . .

/satire

[Quix]

Perhaps in the same sense that Romanist dogma is beyond Scripture?

[hosepipe]

[ "For I am crucified with Christ, and yet I live" - Not I, but Christ that lives within me!- lyrics ]

If the Body of Christ is a valid metaphor then that (above) is not only true but the inverse is true too.. "We"(the church) are HIM, but Christ(Messiah) has become expanded to be the Head(Jesus) and the Body(us).. making him also US..

Now THATS oneness, sister.. even At one ness because of At one ment(Atonement)..
-AND- to think that Jesus was always, and still is, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.. The Head and Body of Christ takes on whole "New Dimensions"(ag;bb)..

Can hardly wait to experience the Bride and Bridegroom thingy/experience..
Wonder if there will be any children...
Know what I mean?.. ;)

[1000 silverlings]

See post 1881 on this thread

[1000 silverlings]

then see post 1902 for a Catholic response

[Running On Empty]

No, not "perhaps".

Posts #2,023 AND #2,026 are beyond satire. They are derisive and mocking and they are not humorous.

I don't believe they are helpful to an honest discussion.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

But then the question must be asked -- does the Spirit point everyone equally? And if the answer there is yes (which most Arminians assert) then the difference must lie in the individual.

I'm not Calvinist, but I'm not Arminian either.

The only times "equality" comes up in Scripture in the leading of the Spirit, are the places where God has said that we are not made equal. We are not "cookie cutter" people and we are not "cookie cutter" Christians.

This despite man's unceasing desire for equality.

God gives us justice, man wants equality or better still "the same break as the next guy."

[adiaireton8]

Somehow, apparently, you [1000 silverlings] moved from my statement (in 1902) that "when we enter Heaven we are (already) glorified" to the conclusion that Catholicism teaches that "we must die in a state of sinlessness in order to merit heaven".

That is a non sequitur. In Catholic theology the moment a Christian dies is not necessarily the moment he enters heaven. In Catholic theology, the Christian who is not fully sanctified enters purgatory until his sanctification is complete. One cannot enter heaven without being perfectly sanctified. But that does not mean that one must die sinless in order to go to heaven.

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

To be led by the Holy Spirit is not to be sinless.

So very true. My point was this: if one truly cannot resist the Holy Spirit, then His indwelling would necessarily result in a sinless life thereafter, ergo the assertion doesn't stand.

[1000 silverlings]

Hi Alamo-Girl, But there is a difference between grieving the Spirit and "resisting". When we sin, we grieve the Spirit in us. After all, you are making Him not so much partake perhaps, but He is present, in your sin. Christians need to think about this and consider it.

[Alamo-Girl]

Amen! Amen! Amen! Oh yes, I completely relate to your experience. Colossians 3:3 has been brought alive in you by the indwelling Spirit, this is how He reveals Christ to us and we are gathered up in the power of God.

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. - I Cor 1:24

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your testimony!

[Alamo-Girl]

You don't appeal to "Jesus" to back up these four ways. You don't appeal to the "Spirit" to back up these four ways. You don't appeal to "creation" to back up these four ways. You appeal only to Scripture to back up these four ways. Therefore, whether you realize it or not, your methodology is 'sola scriptura'.

Not at all. Let me show you again, this time looking at the post and underlining every statement (number in brackets following) which supports another point other than [3], i.e. Scripture.

God the Father has revealed Himself to us in these four ways:

1. Through Jesus Christ who is the brightness of His glory, the express image of His person, by Whom all things that were made, were made and for Whom they exist. [4] (Hebrews 1:3, John 1, Col 1 etc.) If you know Jesus personally, [2] you have the first, most direct and most important revelation of the Father.

2. Through the indwelling Spirit who leads us into all Truth (John 14-17). He reveals Christ to us, personally. [1] If you abide in Christ [1] (John 15) and follow the Spirit's leading (Romans 8), you will have the "mind of Christ." [1] (I Cor 2)

3. Through the Scriptures. Not a jot or tittle of the law and prophets will pass until fulfilled and the new heaven and new earth begins. The indwelling Spirit brings the Scriptures alive within [2] you, revealing Christ [1] in all of this.

4. Through Creation (Psalms 19) - and we are all accountable for noting it. (Romans 1:20) Creation speaks to us that God is. [1]

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. - Psalms 19:1-3

And please note that the Magesterium is nowhere to be found on that list, neither are any other doctrines and traditions of men (Calvin, Arminius, Joseph Smith, etc.) --- because... when we wander beyond the teachings of Christ, we leave God behind.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. - Mark 7:7 That nature speaks to me about God does not make me a naturalist.

That Scripture speaks to me about God does not make me a Calvinist.

That the indwelling Spirit speaks to me about God does not make me a Pentecostal.

However, that Christ speaks to me about God the Father does indeed make me a Christian!

Now, if I were to embrace the Magesterium, I would be a Catholic. If I embraced the doctrines of Calvin, I would be a Calvinist. If I embraced the doctrines of Arminius, I would be an Arminian. If I embraced the doctrines of Joseph Smith, I would be a Mormon. If I embraced the doctrines of L. Ron Hubbard, I would be a Scientologist.

I am NONE of these. I am a Christian plain and simple.

[Alamo-Girl]

A beautiful acquittal of the accusation, my dearest sister in Christ! Thank you!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your replies! I see offense has been taken from poking fun at another confession. But I know your heart because we are both Christian, and I know you would never intentionally hurt another one of Christ's sheep.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply and for sharing your testimony and insight!

Can hardly wait to experience the Bride and Bridegroom thingy/experience.. Wonder if there will be any children... Know what I mean?.. ;)

Indeed. One thing I'm sure of - the new heaven and new earth will in no way be boring.