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Posted on 06/13/2007 4:39:26 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary
Franciscan (Scotistic) Thesis: Absolute Primacy Of Christ -Jesus Christ was absolutely predestined for grace and glory in His Incarnation quite apart from any question of sin. The elect (men and angels) were chosen and predestined in Him by an eternal decree. And this before the universe had been created.
Supporters of this:
-St. Maximus the Confessor: “This [the Incarnation] is that great and hidden mystery. This is the blessed end for which all things were created. This is the divine purpose foreknown before the beginning of creation… Really, it was for the sake of Christ, that is the mystery of Christ, that all the ages and all the things of all the ages themselves received the beginning and end of existence in Christ.”
-St. Francis De Sales: The primary reason for the Incarnation was that God “might communicate Himself” outside Himself (ad extra). From all eternity He saw that the most excellent way to do this was in “uniting Himself to some created nature, in such sort that the creature might be engrafted and implanted in the divinity, and become one single Person with it.” Thus God willed the Incarnation. Through Christ and “for His sake” God willed to pour out His goodness on other creatures thus choosing to “create men and angels to accompany His Son, to participate in His grace and glory, to adore and praise Him forever.”
-St. Albert the Great: In his commentary on the Sentences he writes, “to the extent that I can offer my opinion, I believe that the Son of God would have become man even if there had been no sin… Nevertheless, on this subject I say nothing in a definitive manner; but I believe that what I said is more in harmony with the piety of faith.”
Bl. John Duns Scotus:
The absolute primacy of Christ begins with God’s plan. So we can say that it begins from above, and not from below (from man). It begins with God. Scotus seeks to see the created world form God’s point of view. And God, he would hold, does not subordinate His eternal decrees to man’s temporal situation. God rather in His goodness, freely wills to create the universe according to a fixed plan.
The key note to Scotus’ system is the word "predestination"
Note the distinction again from a Calvinist predestination: God has a fixed plan for creation, but man is still free. For Scotus, the origin of all creation rests on predestination. Scotus defines Predestination as "An act of divine will which destines (chooses or elects) an intellectual creature to grace and glory." Predestination is characterized by 2 activities:
1) eternal: the eternal act outside of time. This refers to the intention of God for all eternity. This specifically refers to the activity of "determining the end." Meaning determining the goal or purpose or final cause of all of God’s activity outside of Himself.
2) temporal: " The Execution of His foreseen plan in time." This means the gradual realization of His eternal plan in time.
-Therefore, we have a single plan of predestination with 2 activities that bring it about. Intention and execution. The intention which God freely chooses from eternity always precedes the execution of His intention in time. The example used by Scotists is that of a sculptor. First the artist sees in his mind a life-size wooden statue (say, of Sacred Heart of Jesus) and he wants to carve this wooden statue.
The first thing the sculptor does is have an intention to carve the statue. Now to execute that intention, he obtains a large chunk of wood. He brings it to a studio and begins to carve. What we can see in this process is that the intention is first and the execution is second, and in a certain sense we can say that the execution (the chunk of wood) is less perfect compared to what the final statue would be (the more perfect). But the sculptor throughout the process sees the Sacred Heart of Jesus in that wood. That intention is what moves the execution of the plan along. So in the sculptors activity of intention, the perfect is willed and is seen first. Whereas, in the activity of execution, he begins with the less perfect and gradually moves to the perfect.
Applying this to subject of primacy of Christ: God is the divine artist. The first thing he does is wills and predestines the Most sacred Heart of Jesus to the maximum grace and glory as possible. This maximum grace in glory is by virtue of the personal union that the human heart of Jesus will have with the eternal Word in the Incarnation. This happens through the hypostatic union. Now through the activity of the intention God wills the end of all creation; The goal and height of all creation: Jesus Christ.
To get to this goal of all creation, God sets his plan in motion (the execution), with the creation of the universe. God moves from the lesser perfect to the most perfect realization of his eternal decree. (Chunk of wood to the actual statue). That’s why he starts with creation. The most perfect of his eternal decree is the grace and glory of Jesus Christ. (Scotus says that Scripture supports this. Jesus is the high point of creation.) Thus the Sacred Heart of Jesus is the first created being willed by God and was done so for all eternity and the Sacred Heart is predestined to the height of Glory. The Sacred Heart is the goal of all creation. What God seeks to realize in the fullness of time (Gal 4:4). So this eternal intention of God and the temporal execution towards this end, is what is fixed by predestination. Secondly, all other rational creatures are predestined in, thru, and for Jesus Christ.
The predestination is the positive act of the divine will which destines a rational creature to grace and glory. This refers first to Jesus Christ in his humanity, and also to all the saints and angels.
For Scotus predestination is absolute, not relative, meaning that it is not relative to any created need or circumstance. Rather it is based on God’s own intrinsic goodness and moving creatures to himself for the optimum grace and glory.
Christ was willed (Incarnation) before the foundation of the world (cf. Eph. 1:4). Jesus is first of all willed for His own sake and not first for man’s sake. In fact, men and angels are created for Him and He for God (cf. I Cor. 3:23). Jesus could not be predestined to grace and glory on account of sin....even though he will conquer sin in his mercy. Thus the Incarnation is the supreme work of God ad extra (outside of Himself) and it is not occasioned by sin. This predestination of Christ, of men, and of angels is one simultaneous act. So God destines all of the elect to grace and glory in Jesus Christ.
In Scotus’s Ordinatio he says:
1) God predestines Christ (in His humanity), saints and angels to glory before any foreseen sin.
2) Predestination is absolute in the intention of God and not based on future needs or sins of creatures.
3) Thirdly that Christ’s absolute predestination could not be "occasioned by sin" or even for the sake of men and angels.
a) After willing the Trinity, the first thing that God wills is the humanity of Jesus.
b) You don’t predestine the height of created glory based on the fall of an inferior creature.
Consequently, this is the view I hold. It also has implications for the Blessed Virgin as well, which I will post on at a later time.
In the meantime, Tom over at Disputations has started a discussion on the subject... Make sure you check out the discussion in the combox. You will find that Fr. Maximilian Mary Dean, F.I. has joined the discussion. Note what he says, for he wrote the book on this subject......literally! It's called A Primer on the Absolute Primacy of Christ.
Be sure to check out Fr. Maximilian's vlog series on this subject at AirMaria.com.
by Danny Garland Jr. at Irish-Catholic and Dangerous
It seems many people are confusing the terms “doctrine” and “dogma.” Our Lady’s maternal mediation (Mother of All Peoples with its three aspects) is an official doctrine of the Church. It is not yet a dogma. It is valid to debate whether it should or should not be a dogma, but one cannot debate whether it is already a doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Also, to the other posters,
the title “Co-Redemptrix” does not mean that Mary is a goddess or is above Christ or is even equal to Christ. The “co” comes from Latin which means “with and under.” There is no hint at equality. The issue of “Co” meaning “equal to” is a faulty english understanding of the prefix. All of the virtues, grace, and privileges of Mary come from Christ. The title “Co-redemptrix” means literally “the woman with the Redeemer.”
This is not a new concept. It is present (called recirculation) in the Fathers of the Churc who said that as sin entered the world through a man, a woman, and a tree, so the act of redemption is accomplished by a Man(Christ), a Woman(Mary), and a Tree(the Cross).
God did not need Mary to enact our redemption, but he chose her from all eternity to be Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix with Christ, the Mediator and Redeemer.
God Bless.
” St. Paul tells us that Jesus Christ is “the firstborn of every creature” (Col. 1:15) and that “All things have been created through and unto Him, and He is before all creatures (including Mary), and in Him all things hold together.” (Col. 1:16-17)”
You forgot the next verse that says He is the redeemer and there is no “co-redemptrix” for He has the preeminence in all things and He shares His glory with no one.
Rev 5:9, “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;” There is no mention of Mary having anything to do with the redemption of fallen man.
18. “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
By the way, the church I attend is housed in a former Franciscan college, Duns Scotus of Southfield, Michigan.
Same welcome to you as in my post #63.
Where was this doctrine taught?
Say what?
Our Lady's maternal mediation I know about but I've seldom heard the term "Mother of All Peoples". Until I did a Google search. I got back one hit. It leads to a website entitled Mother of All Peoples. The list of contributors uncludes a "Fr. Maximillian Mary Dean", whom I presume is the very same priest who is here present.
Seriously, guys.
The site says that you're pressing for the proclamation of a 5th Marian dogma, i.e. that named above. That's nice. However, let's be clear. You guys are pushing the envelope here. You're using the terms "Mother of All Peoples" synonomously with Our Lady's maternal mediation. That's a little naughty. I believe this term has its origin in the "Virgin of All Nations" apparitions.
We're all on board with the mediatory powers of the Blessed Mother but the Mother of All Peoples/5th dogma angle is your personal crusade, right?
READ: error creeps in over time.
Aint that the truth.
Not by the Catholic Church, however.
The alphabet soup of so called Bible-based churches, takes care of that. Irony of ironies.
If God is one, then truth must be one. Ergo, huge numbers of churches are teaching error diverging, as they do, on their understanding of Scripture.
Extra-Biblical Doctrine. Lemmings. Cliff. Rocks below.
Thanks.
This thread will likely have to wait until tomorrow or tomorrow night for much from me.
Looks interesting.
38. From these considerations, the proof develops on these lines: if Mary, in taking an active part in the work of salvation, was, by God’s design, associated with Jesus Christ, the source of salvation itself, in a manner comparable to that in which Eve was associated with Adam, the source of death, so that it may be stated that the work of our salvation was accomplished by a kind of “recapitulation,”[49] in which a virgin was instrumental in the salvation of the human race, just as a virgin had been closely associated with its death; if, moreover, it can likewise be stated that this glorious Lady had been chosen Mother of Christ “in order that she might become a partner in the redemption of the human race”;[50] and if, in truth, “it was she who, free of the stain of actual and original sin, and ever most closely bound to her Son, on Golgotha offered that Son to the Eternal Father together with the complete sacrifice of her maternal rights and maternal love, like a new Eve, for all the sons of Adam, stained as they were by his lamentable fall,”[51] then it may be legitimately concluded that as Christ, the new Adam, must be called a King not merely because He is Son of God, but also because He is our Redeemer, so, analogously, the Most Blessed Virgin is queen not only because she is Mother of God, but also because, as the new Eve, she was associated with the new Adam.
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi12ac.htm
That's just creepy.
That is what I thought.
It sounds incestous.
Since Mary is credited with 'giving' Christ for the sacrifice, doesn't this make her equal to the Father (Jn.3:16)?
Good word. All this Mary worship and adoration and veneration and exaltation is just plain creepy.
As I asked and you responded, where in Scripture are any of the following "facts" found, per Benedict's assertions?
1) Mary "almost died with Christ."
2) Mary "surrendered her maternal rights" (whatever that means).
3) Mary "immolated" Christ.
4) Mary "redeemed the human race together with Christ."
Frankly, these four points don't even sound like English. Mary "immolated" Christ? What in the world does that mean?
Excellent points.
Thanks.
And for far too many . . .
deadly.
My point in posting the quotes of St. Irenaeus and Pope Benedict XV and the article of Msgr. Gherardini was to show, from the Catholic perspective, that Marian mediation is not a dogma, but it is rooted in Sacred Tradition and is considered by many as Catholic doctrine. In other words, Saints, Popes, Cardinals, theologians, and a sinner like me aren't just inventing something as we go along. The Church has always seen Mary as the New Eve cooperating with and under her Divine Son in the work of our salvation.
It seems that you do not accept Sacred Tradition as part of the Deposit of the Faith, so defending Pope Benedict XV's statement using the Scripture would end up being your interpretation of the Scripture versus mine.
Besides, I put up this thread with hopes of discussing the absolute primacy of Christ. I have already spent a lot of time defending these prerogatives of Mary in that previous thread Cardinals, Bishops, Theologians and Lay Apologists Speak-up for Marian Coredemption
God bless you and please say a prayer for me. Thank you...
As I mentioned to Dr. Eckleburg, I have already spent a lot of time defending these prerogatives of Mary in that previous thread Cardinals, Bishops, Theologians and Lay Apologists Speak-up for Marian Coredemption
In trying to be brief, I left out a lot of verses. Colossians 1:12-20 as a whole indicates the absolute primacy of Christ. It is important first to establish the absolute preeminence of Christ; Mary's role in the work of Christ is another discussion altogether.
The point that Bl. John Duns Scotus made is that even if man had not sinned God would have become incarnate just the same. Sin or no sin, Christ was set up by God as the King of kings, the Alpha and Omega. Now that's worth discussing.
Blessed day in the Lord...
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