By the way, the church I attend is housed in a former Franciscan college, Duns Scotus of Southfield, Michigan.
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Posted on 06/13/2007 4:39:26 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary
It seems many people are confusing the terms “doctrine” and “dogma.” Our Lady’s maternal mediation (Mother of All Peoples with its three aspects) is an official doctrine of the Church. It is not yet a dogma. It is valid to debate whether it should or should not be a dogma, but one cannot debate whether it is already a doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Also, to the other posters,
the title “Co-Redemptrix” does not mean that Mary is a goddess or is above Christ or is even equal to Christ. The “co” comes from Latin which means “with and under.” There is no hint at equality. The issue of “Co” meaning “equal to” is a faulty english understanding of the prefix. All of the virtues, grace, and privileges of Mary come from Christ. The title “Co-redemptrix” means literally “the woman with the Redeemer.”
This is not a new concept. It is present (called recirculation) in the Fathers of the Churc who said that as sin entered the world through a man, a woman, and a tree, so the act of redemption is accomplished by a Man(Christ), a Woman(Mary), and a Tree(the Cross).
God did not need Mary to enact our redemption, but he chose her from all eternity to be Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix with Christ, the Mediator and Redeemer.
God Bless.
” St. Paul tells us that Jesus Christ is “the firstborn of every creature” (Col. 1:15) and that “All things have been created through and unto Him, and He is before all creatures (including Mary), and in Him all things hold together.” (Col. 1:16-17)”
You forgot the next verse that says He is the redeemer and there is no “co-redemptrix” for He has the preeminence in all things and He shares His glory with no one.
Rev 5:9, “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;” There is no mention of Mary having anything to do with the redemption of fallen man.
18. “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
By the way, the church I attend is housed in a former Franciscan college, Duns Scotus of Southfield, Michigan.
Same welcome to you as in my post #63.
Where was this doctrine taught?
Say what?
Our Lady's maternal mediation I know about but I've seldom heard the term "Mother of All Peoples". Until I did a Google search. I got back one hit. It leads to a website entitled Mother of All Peoples. The list of contributors uncludes a "Fr. Maximillian Mary Dean", whom I presume is the very same priest who is here present.
Seriously, guys.
The site says that you're pressing for the proclamation of a 5th Marian dogma, i.e. that named above. That's nice. However, let's be clear. You guys are pushing the envelope here. You're using the terms "Mother of All Peoples" synonomously with Our Lady's maternal mediation. That's a little naughty. I believe this term has its origin in the "Virgin of All Nations" apparitions.
We're all on board with the mediatory powers of the Blessed Mother but the Mother of All Peoples/5th dogma angle is your personal crusade, right?
READ: error creeps in over time.
Aint that the truth.
Not by the Catholic Church, however.
The alphabet soup of so called Bible-based churches, takes care of that. Irony of ironies.
If God is one, then truth must be one. Ergo, huge numbers of churches are teaching error diverging, as they do, on their understanding of Scripture.
Extra-Biblical Doctrine. Lemmings. Cliff. Rocks below.
Thanks.
This thread will likely have to wait until tomorrow or tomorrow night for much from me.
Looks interesting.
38. From these considerations, the proof develops on these lines: if Mary, in taking an active part in the work of salvation, was, by God’s design, associated with Jesus Christ, the source of salvation itself, in a manner comparable to that in which Eve was associated with Adam, the source of death, so that it may be stated that the work of our salvation was accomplished by a kind of “recapitulation,”[49] in which a virgin was instrumental in the salvation of the human race, just as a virgin had been closely associated with its death; if, moreover, it can likewise be stated that this glorious Lady had been chosen Mother of Christ “in order that she might become a partner in the redemption of the human race”;[50] and if, in truth, “it was she who, free of the stain of actual and original sin, and ever most closely bound to her Son, on Golgotha offered that Son to the Eternal Father together with the complete sacrifice of her maternal rights and maternal love, like a new Eve, for all the sons of Adam, stained as they were by his lamentable fall,”[51] then it may be legitimately concluded that as Christ, the new Adam, must be called a King not merely because He is Son of God, but also because He is our Redeemer, so, analogously, the Most Blessed Virgin is queen not only because she is Mother of God, but also because, as the new Eve, she was associated with the new Adam.
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi12ac.htm
That's just creepy.
That is what I thought.
It sounds incestous.
Since Mary is credited with 'giving' Christ for the sacrifice, doesn't this make her equal to the Father (Jn.3:16)?
Good word. All this Mary worship and adoration and veneration and exaltation is just plain creepy.
As I asked and you responded, where in Scripture are any of the following "facts" found, per Benedict's assertions?
1) Mary "almost died with Christ."
2) Mary "surrendered her maternal rights" (whatever that means).
3) Mary "immolated" Christ.
4) Mary "redeemed the human race together with Christ."
Frankly, these four points don't even sound like English. Mary "immolated" Christ? What in the world does that mean?
Excellent points.
Thanks.
And for far too many . . .
deadly.
My point in posting the quotes of St. Irenaeus and Pope Benedict XV and the article of Msgr. Gherardini was to show, from the Catholic perspective, that Marian mediation is not a dogma, but it is rooted in Sacred Tradition and is considered by many as Catholic doctrine. In other words, Saints, Popes, Cardinals, theologians, and a sinner like me aren't just inventing something as we go along. The Church has always seen Mary as the New Eve cooperating with and under her Divine Son in the work of our salvation.
It seems that you do not accept Sacred Tradition as part of the Deposit of the Faith, so defending Pope Benedict XV's statement using the Scripture would end up being your interpretation of the Scripture versus mine.
Besides, I put up this thread with hopes of discussing the absolute primacy of Christ. I have already spent a lot of time defending these prerogatives of Mary in that previous thread Cardinals, Bishops, Theologians and Lay Apologists Speak-up for Marian Coredemption
God bless you and please say a prayer for me. Thank you...
As I mentioned to Dr. Eckleburg, I have already spent a lot of time defending these prerogatives of Mary in that previous thread Cardinals, Bishops, Theologians and Lay Apologists Speak-up for Marian Coredemption
In trying to be brief, I left out a lot of verses. Colossians 1:12-20 as a whole indicates the absolute primacy of Christ. It is important first to establish the absolute preeminence of Christ; Mary's role in the work of Christ is another discussion altogether.
The point that Bl. John Duns Scotus made is that even if man had not sinned God would have become incarnate just the same. Sin or no sin, Christ was set up by God as the King of kings, the Alpha and Omega. Now that's worth discussing.
Blessed day in the Lord...
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