Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity
Coming Home Network ^ | Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.

Posted on 04/09/2008 12:36:13 PM PDT by annalex

Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity

By Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.

We are living in a remarkable age. As we approach the third millennium of Christianity in the year 2,000, we are watching a world in extremes. Amid the rapid onslaught of secularization and irreligion, we find hordes of people seeking solace in religion.

Amid the ravages of war and violence, we find the comfort and love of those who care for the poor and disadvantaged. Amid the lightning pace of modern life, we find souls searching for deeper meaning by retreating to monasteries and ashrams for solitude.

Two of the most powerful inspirations in late twentieth century Christianity are the drive toward greater unity among Christians of widely differing backgrounds (ecumenism) and the rapid growth of Marian devotion all around the world. This century has seen unprecedented efforts to bring together Christians who have been separated by misunderstanding and prejudice. And just when the ecumenical movement on a formal level seemed moribund, a new surge of grassroots ecumenism is finding ways of bringing together Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians. Whatever the outcome of these efforts, the air of this last decade of the second millennium is filled with the scent of Christian unity. It seems that Christians are grasping every opportunity to reconcile their doctrinal differences and to find the sweet savor of "brothers dwelling together in unity" (Ps 133: 1).

If this is an age of ecumenism, it is equally a Marian era because no century since the birth of Christ has witnessed such an outpouring of devotion to the mother of Jesus. As many observers note, reported apparitions and locutions have multiplied, leading numerous Christians to an unprecedented devotion to the humble handmaiden of the Lord who was privileged to bring the world its Redeemer. In tandem with these grassroots movements, there is a monumental effort within the Catholic Church for the Pope to define as dogma Marian doctrines that have long been present in the Church (Mediatrix, Coredemptrix, Advocate). Whether or not the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church decides to act, there is unlikely to be any diminishing of devotion to the mother of Jesus.

On the other hand, many non-Catholic Christians are mystified by such devotion to Mary. Some feel strangely drawn to honor her, but are afraid of falling into excessive focus on Mary to the exclusion of Jesus. To others, Marian devotion borders on the blasphemous. To still others, Catholics are idolaters. It is not an overstatement to say that no expression of historic Christianity has ever placed Mary in such a high position of honor as has the western Catholic tradition. And even though the Eastern Orthodox Churches have long honored Mary as the Mother of God, they do not have fully developed mariologies as the Western Church has.

The juxtaposition of ecumenical and Marian movements seems odd at best. On the surface, it appears that Mary would be the last subject chosen in an ecumenical dialogue. One might think that all the areas on which common agreement might be achieved should be addressed first, and then deal with the thorny question of Marian doctrine. Better to leave Mary until last. However, I am now convinced that questions about Mary must be addressed up front if any true ecumenism is ever to be achieved.

On a purely human level, no genuine friendship can ignore beliefs which are central to one party while those same beliefs are at best questionable to the other. Further, it is not completely honest for Catholics to pretend that Marian doctrines and devotions are not important and central to our lives. We ought to state openly that the Catholic faith does not allow the Church to ever change its defined dogmas about Mary. On the other hand, we must admit that not everything that goes on under the term Marian devotion is necessary or beneficial for the Church.

What can talk about Mary do to promote the cause of ecumenism? The answer depends on what we mean by ecumenism. One definition, and the one most common, sees ecumenism as a process of negotiation between different churches whereby one church gives up some aspect of its faith and the other partner relinquishes its claim to some of its distinctives. This process proceeds through a number of steps until a lowest common denominator is reached. The result is a church or some other official body which has a reduced form of faith and practice so that it might accommodate each respective member. This has largely been the pattern of ecumenism in the United States and the Western world for the better part of this century. In my judgment, such attempts have been a monumental failure. Mary cannot help with this type of ecumenism. The other definition of ecumenism is  not founded on the concept of negotiation, but on seeking together the truth of God’s revelation. It begins with confessing that we don’t apprehend God’s truth completely, and that we must always seek to have the mind of Christ. In this conception, unity of heart and mind does not come from negotiated agreements, but from all parties, recognizing and embracing the objective truth of God.

It is a commonplace that married couples do not achieve success by each giving fifty percent to their marriage, but by each giving one hundred percent of themselves. In the same way, Christian unity comes from full commitment to searching for truth in a spirit of humility. Ecumenism begins with recognizing that unity already exists in God, that Christ is the center of unity, and that the Holy Spirit is the operative agent in bringing Christians together. Mary has everything to do with this kind of ecumenism.

Mary: The Sign of Unity ?
How can Mary help in promoting Christian unity? Many may feel the weight of disunity among Christians and long for a greater oneness in Christ, but can Mary really give us that greater oneness? Mary has been a source of division between Catholics and Protestants for a long time. What good will focusing on Mary bring? How can Christians be one when the very Marian devotions so precious to Catholics are viewed as idolatrous by Protestants? To human eyes, it seems that almost any other Christian doctrine would be better suited to bring unity than doctrines of Mary. And if we think of Mary just as a set of doctrines, that would be true. But Mary is more than a set of doctrines. Mary is a person. She lived her life on this earth as the mother of our Lord with her own character, mind, and idiosyncrasies. These things are true regardless of what we believe about her. Mary is what she is apart from our beliefs.

There is one unmistakable fact that we must remember about the real Mary—the Son of God lived in her womb for nine months. This is how Mary can be an instrument of unity. She united the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, with His human nature in her own body. Mary united more than any human being has ever united. She united God and man in the small confines of her own womb. Ponder this amazing reality. In Mary’s womb, heaven and earth were joined, not as two separate realities, but perfectly united in the one person of the Son of God. No wonder it says that "Mary treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart" (Lk 2:19). It is a reality beyond words.

Mary was the instrument of unity for the body of Jesus Christ and this is why Mary has long been thought of as mother of the church. The church is the body of Christ and Mary was the mother of Christ’s body, both physically and mystically. It is clear from Scripture that Jesus Christ is the key to unity among Christians, but the one Savior Jesus Christ would not be what he is—the perfect God-man—without Mary’s being the means of uniting His divine and human natures in one person.

Mary’s example of obedience and discipleship also forms the foundation of unity. Mary gave herself unreservedly to Jesus her Son. Every Christian wants to be an obedient disciple of our Lord and needs examples of obedience to do so. Mary was filled with grace, and this allowed her to listen to the commands of her God without delay. Mary was on earth what every Christian will become in heaven, filled with grace. Obedience means a readiness to say YES to God, a spirit of humility that says "Let it be" (fiat). Unity cannot be achieved through negotiation. It must come through obedience to the apostolic teaching given by Jesus to Paul and the other apostles. Without a willing spirit, we can never achieve God’s desire for unity. Mary’s life of obedience and discipleship calls us to unity with God through obedience.

The unity we seek is not human but divine. Its source is the divine life of Christ the Redeemer. It is that unity for which He prayed when He said, "Father, that they might be one." This kind of unity doesn’t come from each group of Christians giving up some belief or practice for the sake of unity; it comes from each individual or group submitting to the authority of Christ and from the work of the Holy Spirit bringing oneness where it is humanly impossible. Like salvation itself, Christian unity is not within the grasp of human power. All we can do is open ourselves to the ministry of the Spirit to produce the unity that is impossible through negotiation.

It is because Mary has been such a stumbling block for Christians that a fuller embracing of her person and role will achieve a greater unity than we might expect. If we view Mary apart from Jesus, then Mary cannot help us. Yet she was never meant to be seen apart from her Son. Just as the Magi found Jesus "with his mother" (Mt 2:11), so we find Mary involved with her divine Son, cooperating in His work and plan.

We cannot solve the problem of how to be one in Christ. Not by negotiation, not by one or the other side caving in. But God can solve our problems. God specializes in the impossible, just as He once said to Mary (Lk 1:37). If the Holy Spirit can form within the womb of the Virgin Mary a new entity—the unique Godman—then He surely can bring together Christians divided by history, suspicion and misinformation. Perhaps it’s time for us to stop trying to be unified and let God do what we have failed to do. No one can see precisely how this will happen, but we know it won’t happen without embracing the fullness of salvation in Christ himself.

Mary and the Unity of the Trinity
The unity we seek does not result from negotiated agreements. Our Christian unity must be founded on truth. It must be unity of heart and mind, a permanent oneness that is not shaken by the changing tides of custom and culture. The New Testament concept of unity is nothing less than union with the Holy Trinity. Jesus our Lord prayed that the oneness of His disciples would resemble and flow from the oneness experienced by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: "That they all may be one, Father, as you are in me and I in you that they may also be one in us" (Jn 17:21). Jesus Christ does not want our unity to be like his and the Father’s. He wants our unity to be the same as He and the Father have. 

Mary is both a sign and an instrument of the unity coming from the Holy Trinity because she bears a unique relation to each member. Let’s see how Mary is related to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. First, however, a word of caution. In A.D. 431 the ancient Christian Church defined Mary as the Mother of God because the Church wanted to protect the full divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ. This title, Mother of God (or better Godbearer), asserted that the child in Mary’s womb was nothing less than fully God and fully man. But the title Mother of God never has been nor should be interpreted to mean that Mary is the mother of the Trinity. Mary bears a distinct relation to each member of the Trinity, but she is not the mother of the Father, nor of the Holy Spirit.

Mary is the daughter of the Father.
When Mary proclaims herself the handmaiden of the Lord (Lk 1:38,48), she is declaring her filial obedience to the will of God. The love she has for the heavenly Father shows itself in her desire to be His vessel of bringing salvation to the world. What better sign of unity than this act of submission to the will of God? If we only follow Mary’s lead, we will find ourselves united in heart as her heart was united with the heavenly Father’s heart.

Mary did not negotiate with God, bargain with Him nor seek a compromise. She acknowledged her dependence on His grace and sought to perform His bidding. The will of the Father is unity for us who profess His Son. We will have unity only when we have submitted ourselves to the Father as Mary did.

Yet Mary is more than a sign. She is an instrument of unity. How is this true? Without her obedience the Savior would not have been born. Some Christians think that if Mary had refused Gabriel’s invitation to bear the Savior, God would have found another woman. There is not the slightest evidence in the New Testament for this view. Mary freely gave herself to God’s will of giving the world its Savior. By her instrumentality Mary united the Father to the world through His Son. In a profound sense, Mary united us to the Father through the Son. And that is how we will find a greater degree of unity today. By seeking to imitate her obedience and by seeking submission to the same Father through the Son she bore.

Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
Gabriel proclaimed that the Holy Spirit would come over her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her (Lk 1:35). This is the language of marital love (see Ruth 3:9; Zeph 3:17). Mary was united with the third person of the Trinity in order to give flesh to the second person. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she gave her body to the service of God so that she might receive the fullness of God. And so Mary is a sign of how we too must seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit to do the will of God (cf Eph 5:18). It is the Holy Spirit who brings Jesus Christ today just as He brought the divine Christ to the womb of Mary (cf. Jn 14:17,18). When we are filled with the Spirit as Mary was, we are united to Jesus and we become more united with one another. Mary’s union with the Holy Spirit brought us the Son who poured out the Spirit that we might be united with both Son and Spirit. Her union brings about our union.

Mary is the mother of the Son.
Through her, Christ’s divine and human natures were united into the one person that would save us from our sins. As Jesus’ mother, Mary signals that our unity will only be in and through her Son. When Paul says that Jesus was "born of a woman ... that we might receive the adoption" (Gal 4:4,5), the apostle implies that true unity comes only from being members of the same family—the same family in which Jesus is the firstborn Son.

We cannot be members of many different families that have a tolerance for one another’s beliefs and worship. No doubt tolerance for cultural and historical differences is essential, but that is still not the New Testament ideal of unity. Unity means being in the same family as Jesus ("one Lord"), having the same content of belief ("one faith"), living in the same Church body ("one baptism"). Only then can we be sure that we have the same "God and Father of all, who is over all, through all and in all." See Ephesians 4:4-6.

Mary: God’s Woman of the Hour
Now is the time for unity among Christians. As we approach the beginning of the third millennium since Christ’s birth, we see an almost unprecedented call to unity. Christian leaders the world over have caught a glimpse of Christ’s will that "they may be one, Father, as you are in me and I in you" (Jn 17:21). The desire for unity is laudable and ought to be pursued with vigor. Yet the only unity worth pursuing, the only unity that will last is the unity that already exists in the Holy Trinity. This kind of unity is not something we achieve. It is something given to us as a gift. This unity is infused in our souls and expressed by oneness of mind and heart (doctrine and love).

Truth without love is barren and sterile. Unity without truth is empty and fruitless. Jesus was a kind and compassionate man who proclaimed the truth. The Lord who wept over Jerusalem’s obstinacy (see Mt 23:37-39), and who was moved with compassion over the "sheep without a shepherd," (Mk 6:34) is the same Lord who said that the truth of His words would not pass away (Lk 21:33). If Jesus is our Lord, then we must follow with equal vigor His truth and love.

Insistence on truth at the expense of unity will not do, nor will embracing unity at the expense of truth. Truth and unity are equally ultimate. Yet even now, we must realize the impossibility of reconciling truth and unity with human schemes and ingenuity. The only way to have unity is by having unity in Truth. The truth that brings unity is Jesus Himself who is "the way, the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6). The truth Jesus gives is the complete teaching of His will as expressed in and through the Church of the apostles.

The Church is Jesus’ idea and institution; it is part of the will of Jesus. And it is Christ’s Church that wrote and gave us the Holy Scriptures and the truths of faith passed down from generation to generation. Obedience to Jesus means obedience to Jesus’ Church. It is no accident that Christians have spoken of the Church as our mother for centuries. Classic Christianity spoke this way: the one who wants God as a Father must have the Church as a mother. Why is it necessary? Because Jesus is nurturing our faith through our mother, the Church. And that is why Mary is so important.

Jesus is our model but we must remember that even our Lord learned some of His commitment to truth and compassion from His mother. All we have to assume is that Mary lived her own words to see that this is true. She loved truth enough to consent to Gabriel’s invitation to bear the Son of God (Lk 1:38). She was filled with compassion enough to see God’s "mercy from generation to generation" (Lk 1:50). Mary was a woman of truth and love. Her commitment to God’s truth and love lead her to the unity of the Son of God. Her submissive heart that willingly embraced God’s truth and her devoted love for God brought about the unity of Christ’s human and divine natures into the perfect unity of His one divine person.

So Mary’s commitment to truth and unity is both our model and the means of our unity. She modeled our path to unity by her embrace of the divine Son within her womb. We must embrace Him too. Mary is also the means of our having unity because without her act of submission to God we would not have the one Savior who can unify us.

It is time to lay down our defensive postures, to lay aside our personal and political agendas, to give up our dearest visions for the Church and to embrace the complete will of Christ. I believe that if we could simply be like Mary on that day when Gabriel came to her, we could then say with her, "Let it be done to us according to your word" (Lk 1:38). Perhaps, she could say with us:

Lord, we are your servants.
Heal our divisions and
Let Your Son reign as Lord within.
Let Your Word dwell within us
And make us one.

 

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

This article is from Ken’s new book, Mary of Nazareth: Sign and Instrument of Christian Unity. [Queenship Publishing]

 


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 851-866 next last

1 posted on 04/09/2008 12:36:14 PM PDT by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: 353FMG; AlaskaErik; Always Right; Antoninus; ArrogantBustard; CTK YKC; dan1123; DogwoodSouth; ...
50 Days of Easter 2008 Celebration ping, dedicated to converts to the Catholic faith. If you want to be on the list but are not on it already, or if you are on it but do not want to be, let me know either publicly or privately.

Happy Easter. Christ is risen!

Alex.


Previously posted conversion stories:

Anti-Catholicism, Hypocrisy and Double Standards
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality
His Open Arms Welcomed Me
Catholic Conversion Stories & Resources
My Personal Conversion Story
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
Catholics Come Home
My Journey of Faith
LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM
"What is Truth?" An Examination of Sola Scriptura
"Have you not read?" The Authority behind Biblical Interpretation
The Crisis of Authority in the Reformation
Our Journey Home
Our Lady’s Gentle Call to Peace
A story of conversion at the Lamb of God Shrine
Who is Mary of Nazareth?

2 posted on 04/09/2008 12:43:30 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: annalex; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; fortheDeclaration; OLD REGGIE

God have mercy!

Folks actually believe such convoluted nonsense!

I must say, it helps convince me more and more that the whole Maryology stuff is being set up as an aid to the global government and the one world religion.

Shocking.

Horrific and shocking.


3 posted on 04/09/2008 12:57:18 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: annalex

I have two comments.

I think that while the hopes of reunification with the Orthodox East have never been greater, Protestantism (excepting conservative Luterans and Anglicans) is on a centrifugal trajectory even in relation to itself, let alone the historical apostolic churches. The hostility that evangelical Christian often have to Catholic mariology are a sure sign that it is familial unity under the motherhood of Mary that they fear.

On the other hand, it is worth mentioning that Mary is our important point of contact with other abrahamic religions, as the high point of the existance of Biblical Israel, and a figure who inspires a great devotion among the Muslim.


4 posted on 04/09/2008 12:58:57 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Quix

So the one-world government conspiracy has been around that long?? LOL!


5 posted on 04/09/2008 12:59:38 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480

Don’t feed the troll.


6 posted on 04/09/2008 1:02:30 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: annalex
Well, I agree with one thing the author said: some of us see the place of Mary in the Roman Catholic Church as idolatry...ascribing to her FAR more than the Scriptures do, or ever intended. And this is perhaps one of the greatest hindrances to the ecumenical movement. It is something we simply cannot brush aside.

I know this is going to ruffle some feathers. For that I am sorry. It is not meant to offend, but to be the statement of belief of one seeking after truth. And I find no justification for the assertions made in this article. It is just a bridge too far.

BTW - it is not my intent to debate this issue. I am only stating a long held, carefully researched theological position. We will all waste too much time and energy debating my position.

7 posted on 04/09/2008 1:02:36 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480

Some say 400 years.

Which is older than what—at least a couple of the formalized Mariolotry dogmas.

Of course, satan, the author of all of it has been around . . . longer.


8 posted on 04/09/2008 1:05:12 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper

ascribing to her FAR more than the Scriptures do, or ever intended. And this is perhaps one of the greatest hindrances to the ecumenical movement. It is something we simply cannot brush aside.

I know this is going to ruffle some feathers. For that I am sorry. It is not meant to offend, but to be the statement of belief of one seeking after truth. And I find no justification for the assertions made in this article. It is just a bridge too far.


INDEED. It was shocking to me that anyone would think that was a route to any kind of authentic Christian unity when it’s abjectly and horrifically the opposite.


9 posted on 04/09/2008 1:06:49 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: annalex

Wow. That was quite a slick and brief personal assault.

Thanks for the points.


10 posted on 04/09/2008 1:07:41 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480

If only the feared “one-world religion” would include the authentic Blessed Virgin Mary. Then we wouldn’t have to fear it. Of course, it won’t, and we will.


11 posted on 04/09/2008 1:12:29 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurtureĀ™)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Quix

I would like to share a book with ya’ll written by a MS author, Robert McIlvaine titled “Grand Theft Jesus”. I think I bought this book in error, what do you think? I think I know what Rush would say.


12 posted on 04/09/2008 1:14:10 PM PDT by whitebird11 (Grand Theft Liberals)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper

Since you did not offer anything but a naked opinion, there is nothing to debate about it. As I wrote a few posts above, indeed unity or even mutual respect between the Church and the Protestant groupings is only possible if Our Lady is honored by all sides.


13 posted on 04/09/2008 1:15:17 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: annalex
Don’t feed the troll.

No need to anyway, the Greys take care of that.

The truth is out there.

14 posted on 04/09/2008 1:17:02 PM PDT by Petronski (Nice job, Hillary. Now go home and get your shine box.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: steve86

The RC edifice hasn’t bothered about the authentic Mary for centuries, why would the global government! LOL.


15 posted on 04/09/2008 1:17:12 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: annalex

I read that assertion as a wholesale brazen and outrageous distortion of the facts.


16 posted on 04/09/2008 1:18:12 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Petronski

17 posted on 04/09/2008 1:22:56 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: annalex
Protestantism [...] is on a centrifugal trajectory even in relation to itself, let alone the historical apostolic churches.

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

The hostility that evangelical Christian often have to Catholic mariology are a sure sign that it is familial unity under the motherhood of Mary that they fear.

No. There is no fear involved. The entirety of Catholic mariology, and prayers to saints in general, are without Biblical standing, and are offensive to the singular redemption and intercessory power of Christ.

I remain entirely unconvinced, as are my fellows, I am sure. There will be no reunion as long as the Catholics insist upon such heresies.

[...]and a figure who inspires a great devotion among the Muslim.

Mohammedanism is decidedly *not* a religion based upon the God Jehovah, nor is it of His Son.

18 posted on 04/09/2008 1:23:40 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: annalex

I honor Mary for being willing to follow God’s direction for her life.

She was simply a woman, like any other who has great faith in God. She lived a completely normal life, bearing other children after the birth of Jesus.

I refuse to believe that God would reward her faithfulness by denying her other children.


19 posted on 04/09/2008 1:25:40 PM PDT by Politicalmom (Better a leftist Dem with energized GOP opposition, than a leftist "Republican" with no opposition.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: annalex; LiteKeeper
Since you did not offer anything but a naked opinion, there is nothing to debate about it. As I wrote a few posts above, indeed unity or even mutual respect between the Church and the Protestant groupings is only possible if Our Lady is honored by all sides.

I am afraid it is quite the opposite.

20 posted on 04/09/2008 1:26:36 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: annalex
Mary is the daughter of the Father.

When Mary proclaims herself the handmaiden of the Lord (Lk 1:38,48), she is declaring her filial obedience to the will of God. The love she has for the heavenly Father shows itself in her desire to be His vessel of bringing salvation to the world. What better sign of unity than this act of submission to the will of God? If we only follow Mary’s lead, we will find ourselves united in heart as her heart was united with the heavenly Father’s heart.

*********************

Would that it could be.

21 posted on 04/09/2008 1:26:53 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Quix

Amen brother-a strong spirit of delusion!


22 posted on 04/09/2008 1:50:21 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration ("Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people".-John Adams)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: annalex

Why do the Holy Rollers here always seem to be, pardon moi, on the rag?


23 posted on 04/09/2008 1:57:07 PM PDT by Revolting cat! ("I am like...Dude......do you really....like want the Sex?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: annalex
We don't "fear" anything. The mariology cult is just making up additional orthodoxy to suit their imaginations. Protestants started when they were allowed to read the Bible for themselves. Any reading of the Scriptures by a reasonable person can see that she was a willing servant, not a god-like being to be worshiped. Why not worship Moses, Abraham, Ezekiel, etc? The apostles were just people that sold out completely to God. The Bible is from Genesis to Revelation about the revelation of Jesus Christ to the world. Anything that takes from His glory is false religion. The Bible specifically forbids graven images, yet all over the world the "maryologists" bow and pray before pictures and statues in their homes and on sides of the road. They travel for thousands of miles to pray over bits of bone and hanks of hair.

ALL this detracts from the worship of Jesus as the Deity of God Almighty. These dead people cannot help you in your prayers anymore than a golden calf could. All power and glory to Jesus and no one else. The sensitivity to people that don't want to pray to dead people is just like blacks sensitivity to saying anything about blacks. The facts are the facts and Mary needed Jesus to die on the cross as much as I did to be saved. She was a person, no better no worse than many other characters in the Bible.

Anyone can be saved by the Blood of Jesus, but the "extra" rules and beliefs are man made religion, which Jesus came to condemn in the Pharisee's. Christians are joined only by the faith in the redemptive power of Jesus as Lord and Savior, but separated by denominational "religious" differences. I can't worship Mary any more than I can pray to Joseph Smith. The danger in all this is we could agree that the Dali Lama, Buddha, or Obama could also be as good a path to heaven as any.

In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Its all about Jesus all the time.

24 posted on 04/09/2008 1:59:32 PM PDT by chuckles
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: annalex
Since you did not offer anything but a naked opinion, there is nothing to debate about it. As I wrote a few posts above, indeed unity or even mutual respect between the Church and the Protestant groupings is only possible if Our Lady is honored by all sides.

She's your Lady/Goddes, not ours.

25 posted on 04/09/2008 2:00:20 PM PDT by DungeonMaster (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: annalex

bookmark


26 posted on 04/09/2008 2:26:28 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: roamer_1

In other words, we can play nice with the Roman Catholic Church, as long as we play by their rules.


27 posted on 04/09/2008 2:27:48 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper
In other words, we can play nice with the Roman Catholic Church, as long as we play by their rules.

That's not gonna work very good- We can play nice, certainly, but the rules are clearly defined in the Rule Book. :)

Anything amended to that changes the game into one I need not play at all.

28 posted on 04/09/2008 2:44:32 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Politicalmom
I refuse to believe that God would reward her faithfulness by denying her other children.

Mary was righteous. Righteous wives do not defraud (cheat) their husbands by insisting on sham marriages. Mary had other children.

The fanatical denial of normal humanity to the mother of Jesus reflects the deadly, seductive tug of pagan mother goddess worship, and neoplatonic disdain for God's wonderful created order. It is also an assault upon the image of God in man, since normal marital sexuality is part of who God made us to be in order to reflect Him.

29 posted on 04/09/2008 3:25:12 PM PDT by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: annalex

This Mary stuff gives me the creeps. She was Jesus Mother. However, she was not an apostle, she was not Jesus. She is an historical Biblical figure like so many others.

My focus is on Jesus and Him alone. If some human of antiquity or still living offers a written or spoken perspective on man and mans relationship with God and man, I may or may not read it. I especially like the writings of Paul and C. S. Lewis, although the former is included in the Bible and therefore contains significantly more authority.

But Mary does not really fit into this. I don’t get it.


30 posted on 04/09/2008 3:49:59 PM PDT by RobRoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RobRoy
“”This Mary stuff gives me the creeps””

Without Mary’s “YES”(Fiat) there is no Salvation for you.

She participated in the Salvation of the whole human race and God chose her to be the mother of all that are saved.

Listen carefully to the words of Blessed Saint Irenaues in 189 AD

In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,”inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the WHOLE HUMAN RACE... And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith
-Saint Irenaues

I will re-post this again from a previous post of mine...

Get your Bible Out and follow along, Dear Brother

The Blessed Mother fulfills many Biblical Old Testament Typological Prophecies, She is the New Eve. The Daughter of Zion,The perfect fulfillment of the Church and the Ark of the New Covenant.

All of this is verified in scripture typology along with the writings of the early Christians

God Created Ark Of Covenant WITHOUT STAIN

Here is a comparison of Old Testament Ark “verses” New Testament Mary who is the “Immaculate” Ark of the NEW COVENANT

A cloud of glory covered the Tabernacle and Ark (Exodus 40:34-35; Numbers 9:15) = Type is
“And the angel said to her: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you’” (Luke 1:35)

Ark spent three months in the house of Obededom the Gittite (2 Samuel 6:11) = Type is
Mary spent three months in the house of Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:26, 40)

King David asked “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Samuel 6:9) = Type is
Elizabeth asked Mary, “Why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43)

David Leaped and danced before the Lord when the Ark arrived in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 6:14 - 16) = Type is
John the Baptist leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary arrived (Luke 1:44)

Even the Early Christians saw this.
Some examples....

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).

Mary is the Daughter of Zion .

The important thing point out is that in the OT (esp. Isiah, Zephaniah, Zechariah, etc..) there are Messianic prophecies known as the Daughter Zion prophecies which tend to have a similar form. They begin with something like, “rejoice, O Daughter of Zion, for the Lord your God is in your midst..” and continue on with Messianic prophecy. The form of Gabriel’s Annuniciation to Mary matches the form of the Daughter Zion prophecies. This indicates on the one hand that these prophesies are fulfilled with the words of Gabriel which announce the Messianic expectation as being fulfilled at that time.

The prophets words were a foreshadowing of the Annuniciation. Gabriel called Mary Kecharitomene, which I believe captures the essence of Daughter of Zion and points beyond it. Basically Mary is being presented in Luke I & II as representing not just the perfect embodiment of the virtues of what it means to be Israel, she is presented as a certain personification of Israel. She stands in as Israel proper, and the language used throughout the narrative suggests the concept of “corporate personality” which is part of Hebrew thought. There are allusions and types in Luke I & II which further support this (themes and structure in the Magnificat, allusions to Abraham to which this concept of corporate personality applies, Simeon, Judith, etc..). Also, this understanding of what Luke I & II presents about Our Lady is an interpretive key to understanding certain passages in a deeper way (for example Simeon’s prophecy).

It also ties in with themes in John’s writings and sheds light upon them. The thematic parallels between John-Rev & Luke-Acts are many so it’s no surprise that this aspect of Luke I & II would mesh well with John.

The Importance of Kecharitomene

Kecharitomene (Luke 1:28), is Mary,s purpose ,it is Her essence and being in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the “woman” of the Father. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:20), in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the “woman” of the Holy Spirit. As the mother of the Son (Luke 1:31), in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the ‘woman’ of the Son. The virgin from Nazareth, clearly then, is “woman” to all the three divine Persons who is GOD. She is aptly the ‘blessed among women’ (Luke 1:42). The Blessed Virgin Mary is the “woman” of GOD. The Son of Man never called her “mother”, not even once while He interacted with humans, because it will not be in keeping with His divinity or with the Oneness and Indivisibility of the Holy Trinity. The virgin from Nazareth is not the mother of the Holy Spirit and she, obviously, is not the mother of the Father

Luke 1:28 Uses the word “Kecharitomene: to describe Mary,s function,essence and being

The original Greek was kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle of charis, grace. St. Jerome translated it into Latin as gratia plena, “full of grace.” In Greek the perfect stem denotes a completed action with a permanent result. Kecharitomene means completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace. The Protestant Revised Standard Version translates Lk 1:28 as “highly favored daughter.” This is no mere difference of opinion but a conscious effort to distort St. Luke’s original Greek text. Had Mary been no more than “highly favored,” she would have been indistinguishable from Sarah the wife of Abraham, Anna the mother of Samuel, or Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist, all of whom were long childless and “highly favored” because God acceded to their pleas to bear children. But neither Sarah nor Anna is described as kecharitomene in the Septuagint, a translation by Jewish scholars of the Hebrew Scriptures for Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt. Nor does Luke use it to describe Elizabeth. Kecharitomene in this usage is reserved for Mary of Nazareth.

The word “kecharitomene” is a perfect passive participle of the verb “charitoo.”

Some have argued that this says nothing unique about Mary since Saint Stephen, just before he is martyred for the faith, is said to be full of grace in Acts 6:8. However a different word form is used to describe Saint Stephen. In the Greek the conjugated form of “charitoo” that is used to describe him is “charitos” not “kecharitomene” that is used in reference to Mary.

Saint Luke does not use Mary as her name in Luke 1:28 He Changes it to “Kecharitomene” this is a new name , and we all know that name changes in Scripture are significant - Abram (Hebrew “father”) to Abraham (”father of multitudes), Jacob to Israel, Saul to Paul, Simon to Peter, etc.

This describes her very essence and being.

Mary, is named “kecharitomene” - because she is full of grace-full of perfection

Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God, because she was perfect in obeying the will of God. She would not betray her divine husband for the sake of a man. The marriage between Joseph and Mary took place in the divine plan in order to protect the publicity of the holy virgin announced in the Holy Scriptures who would give birth to Emanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14)

Joseph was a chaste man, who respected Mary highly since he was given revelations about Mary and Jesus by the angel of God (Matthew 1:20), he accepted the special holy mission to help the promised Messiah and his mother.

Mary is the New Eve (More Typology)

Old Testament Eve- Verses New Testament Mary

Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42

There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34

There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17 = There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35

There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13 = There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38

A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6 = A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17

There was pride, Gen 3:4-7 = There was humility, Luke 1:38

There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7 = There was obedience, Luke 1:38

There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20 = There was redemption, John 19:34

Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19 = Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28

She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22 = She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15

Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24 = Approached the “Tree of Life”, John 19:25

An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24 = An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9

Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15 = The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7

Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1 = Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5

Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8 = Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34

The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20 = The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27

The Early Christians saw this very clear...

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)

“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).

Mary was PRESERVED from all stain of original sin at her creation so that she would be a “New Creation”, the “New Eve”

Lastly,It is NOT fitting that the Mother of God should bring shame to Her divine son.Therefor.God preserved Mary from any personal sin,whether mortal or venial.
Through the Grace of God,which was infused into her soul at the moment of her conception,at the very instant He created her soul and united it to her body. He did it in virtue of the merits of Christ.
No descendant of Adam receives the Grace of God except through the merits of Christ.
The Mother of Christ was no exception to this law of Grace.
Like every other human being who is descended of carnal generation from Adam,the blessed virgin Mary need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ,But wheras every other human being needs to be cleansed from the stain of original sin-which has contracted by way of carnal generation from Adam-the Virgin Mary did NOT need to be cleansed from original sin.Through the Grace of Christ she was preserved from the stain of sin.

Mary is closer to Christ than any other human being,because He took flesh from her and dwelt in her womb.
The closer one is to Christ,the source of all Grace,the greater degree of Grace one receives from Christ. Mary,therefor,received from Christ a fullness of Grace not granted to any other creature.

Her Immaculate Conception made her worthy to be Mother of God

31 posted on 04/09/2008 4:18:57 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Revolting cat!; All

There aren’t more than 2-5 Pentecostals that post very often at all—especially on the RC threads.

I don’t know of a single one of us who is very angry very often at all.

I can’t remember the last time I was angry on such a thread. Fiesty and pointed are not equal to angry regardless of how often the RC side prefers to violate their own standard by telling Prottys what the Prottys feel and do contrary to what the Prottys say they feel and do.

RC’s scream bloody murder if Prottys even hint at insisting that RC’s behaviors do not match their words—RC’s insisting that we are telling them they are worshipping Mary while they insist they are not. However, RC’s have no compunctions about violating against Prottys that standard they demand Prottys extend to them.

REAL IMPRESSIVE.

NOT!


32 posted on 04/09/2008 4:25:49 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: annalex

and a figure who inspires a great devotion among the Muslim.
= = =

That is a fascinating point.

And that point ALSO meshes quite hand-in-glove with the gloablist plans using the Jihadi’s toward a global government and one world religion. I don’t like where it seems this is headed, globally.

However, my EXPERIENCE of a certain percentage of RC’s hereon leaves me quite concerned that were various events staged ostensibly ‘proving’ that a “Mary” similar to that hoaxed at Fatima was now calling all RC’s and all earth’s citizens to join her ‘more fully explained’ ‘truer’ Christianity . . . it would appear that the busses would be filled to the max with cheering sheeple.


33 posted on 04/09/2008 4:29:48 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: steve86

I agree that it won’t include the AUTHENTIC Mary.

But it may well include the same sort of personage successfully proffered as Mary at Fatima.


34 posted on 04/09/2008 4:31:08 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: whitebird11

Any chapters available online?

Or you have any excerpts you’d like me to consider?


35 posted on 04/09/2008 4:31:44 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Petronski

Nice to see the standard of personal assaults is being maintained.

Thanks for the points.


36 posted on 04/09/2008 4:32:29 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480

REALLY?

WHAT do you want to believe?

Or is it merely another untrue assaultive cheeky post?


37 posted on 04/09/2008 4:33:27 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: roamer_1; annalex

a sure sign that it is familial unity under the motherhood of Mary that they fear.

= = = =

Could anything be further from the truth, Roamer? It boggles the imagination to even imagine how folks could come up with such far fetched farcical notions.


38 posted on 04/09/2008 4:34:57 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: roamer_1

Since you did not offer anything but a naked opinion, there is nothing to debate about it. As I wrote a few posts above, indeed unity or even mutual respect between the Church and the Protestant groupings is only possible if Our Lady is honored by all sides.


I am afraid it is quite the opposite.

= = =

INDEED, YOU ARE RIGHT, ROAMER.


39 posted on 04/09/2008 4:36:03 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration

Dreadfully sad to so persistently observe it in the face of so much evidence to the contrary.


40 posted on 04/09/2008 4:36:55 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: chuckles

The mariology cult is just making up additional orthodoxy to suit their imaginations.

= = =

INDEED!


41 posted on 04/09/2008 4:37:25 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper

In other words, we can play nice with the Roman Catholic Church, as long as we play by their rules.

= = =

Which is always translated as

Construe reality as we do using our

—Rubber Bibles
—Rubber histories
—Rubber dictionaries
—Rubber logic texts . . . and the latest
—Rubber mathematics [”a few = 66]


42 posted on 04/09/2008 4:39:03 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: roamer_1

That’s not gonna work very good- We can play nice, certainly, but the rules are clearly defined in the Rule Book. :)

Anything amended to that changes the game into one I need not play at all.

= = =

INDEED.


43 posted on 04/09/2008 4:39:33 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: RJR_fan

INDEED!

I suspect we will see many of Mary’s blood descendents ruling and reigning with Christ in incredibly potent positions.


44 posted on 04/09/2008 4:40:24 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: RobRoy

I don’t think Mary herself would be less than outraged at what they’ve turned her name and image into . . . if she were allowed to be aware of such, at all.


45 posted on 04/09/2008 4:41:18 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: stfassisi

It’s still shocking to me that you honestly believe so much nonsense about all that. Amazing. Shockingly amazing.


46 posted on 04/09/2008 4:42:09 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: RobRoy
This Mary stuff gives me the creeps.

We know that Satan appears as an angel of light. Something sweet, wholesome, desirable, ethereal ... a dangerously tempting substitute for reality. The Incarnate God is earthy, practical, and for-real genuine. Definitely a richer and more wonderful Entity than any bedecked fantasy.

47 posted on 04/09/2008 5:02:08 PM PDT by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: stfassisi

>>Without Mary’s “YES”(Fiat) there is no Salvation for you.<<

Christianity does not support that. In fact, it goes counter to Christ’s own words.

Some would call it downright blasphemy. I don’t really like that word though.


48 posted on 04/09/2008 5:27:58 PM PDT by RobRoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: stfassisi

>>Listen carefully to the words of Blessed Saint Irenaues in 189 AD<<

Yeah, I read that quote. I assume this is some sort of joke post.


49 posted on 04/09/2008 5:31:30 PM PDT by RobRoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: RobRoy

Christianity does not support the Incarnation without Mary’s involvement.

Like it or Not!


50 posted on 04/09/2008 5:33:48 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 851-866 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson