Posted on 04/12/2008 7:19:29 AM PDT by DouglasKC
Once one recognizes the nature of The Game”
What is “The Game”?
God also created rocks, which serve His purposes well. This doesn’t mean worshiping rocks is what He has planned for us.
Okay....that's good. I don't either so let's just read the salient points in the Greek and see what they say!
[Matthew 6:5] But when you pray (4336 proseuchomai (pros-yoo'-khom-ahee) to pray to God, i.e. supplicate, worship) do not be like the hypocrites (5273. hupokrites (hoop-ok-ree-tace') an actor under an assumed character (stage-player), i.e. (figuratively) a dissembler ("hypocrite") for they love to pray standing in front of the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men.
The above verse very plainly tells us prayer should be a private thing....not a public display.
[Matthew 6:6] When you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father (3962. pater (pat-ayr')apparently a primary word; a "father" (literally or figuratively, near or more remote) who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Again, we see that private prayer to Our Father is reinforced instead of any kind of public display.
[Matthew 6:7] And when you pray, do not keep on babbling (945. battologeo (bat-tol-og-eh'-o) to stutter, i.e. (by implication) to prate tediously; use vain repetitions) like pagans (1482. ethnikos (eth-nee-kos') national ("ethnic"), i.e. (specially) a Gentile; heathen (man), for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
Well.....I don't believe there is too much we can say about verse 7 except.....God doesn't pay much attention to folks who just "prate tediously"....especially when they're not talking to Him!
Now I realize that you are going to say....That's just your interpretation". You're right! God gave me a brain and the ability to think things out.
Here is some various translations of [Matthew 6:7]. I'm certain you will agree that all say the same thing.
Here is the Douay....pretty much the same as the others.
[John 5:39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Our Lord commands us to search Him out through the Holy Scriptures. We don't need a Magesterium to see what he is saying!
So why are there several different thousand Protestant denominations.?
Oh my-you mean THERE ARE SINNERS IN THE CHURCH!!???.
You wrote:
“She couldn’t have been always sinless, at least if you believe scripture.”
Sure she can and nothing in scripture contradicts that. Again, what you keep ignoring because it ruins your arguments: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/all-have-sinned-mary.html
“That is exactly what John was addressing here:”
Neither were discussing the Virgin Mary. Again: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/all-have-sinned-mary.html
“Mary could not have been created sinless. It’s impossible.”
Something is impossible for God?
“I’ve quoted multiple scriptures to show this is so.”
No, you have misused scripture in an attempt to overturn truth while assiduously ignoring evidence against your claims.
“She could not be made sinless without the sacrifice of Christ. If she did, then Christ was a liar. He did not die for our sins.”
Yet another straw man!!!!!!!!! Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice? Who? I have never, EVER, claimed any such thing. I really don’t take it personally that you disagree with orthodoxy. I do take it personally when you flat out lie about what I have said or about what Catholics believe. Why lie? And here’s the proof: multiple times I have said Mary was sinless because of Christ’s death on the cross, His sacrifice. Multiple times I have said this! See the following examples AGAIN:
Post #269: Mary was always sinless, but she was made sinless by the grace won on the cross by Christ. Christ was Mary’s Savior too, only He saved her FIRST.
Post #256: Mary was made sinless by Christ’s grace. That only resulted from His death. Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.
Post #249: Christ saved Mary from sinfulness with His grace.
Post #240: We are not making Mary sinless. CHRIST’S GRACE made Mary sinless.
So far you have tried multiple straw men, quoting only half a statement to make it look like it supports you and now you’re just flat out lying. And yet, incredibly, you wrote:
“I am very interested in honest debate and don’t believe that I’m creating a straw man argument about Marian worship...and especially not about Mary having no sin.”
Incredible. Then why lie about what I said and what we believe? Christ saved Mary. He saved her through the grace He won on the cross. His sacrifice was so perfect that it is timeless and helps those in the past and in the future for God has no time!
Don't ask me.....I'm not a Protestant. I don't know why those folks do some of the things they do! You either....for that matter!
You missed the larger point. There are churches that do not recognize these things as sin and instead embrace them.
You are! You claim that she was made sinless BEFORE Christ's sacrifice. Without any scriptural proof or justification you then throw out a statement saying that the sacrifice occurred before it occurred to make Mary sinless. Kind of like a weird back to the future episode. It's like me saying that the action of me going to the store and buying eggs today made it possible for eggs to show up in my refrigerator 30 years ago. It's nonsense.
Post #269: Mary was always sinless, but she was made sinless by the grace won on the cross by Christ. Christ was Mary’s Savior too, only He saved her FIRST.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
Post #256: Mary was made sinless by Christ’s grace. That only resulted from His death. Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
Post #249: Christ saved Mary from sinfulness with His grace.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
Post #240: We are not making Mary sinless. CHRIST’S GRACE made Mary sinless.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
So far you have tried multiple straw men, quoting only half a statement to make it look like it supports you and now you’re just flat out lying. And yet, incredibly, you wrote:
This is interesting spin. Totally false, but an interesting glimpse into your character.
Incredible. Then why lie about what I said and what we believe? Christ saved Mary. He saved her through the grace He won on the cross. His sacrifice was so perfect that it is timeless and helps those in the past and in the future for God has no time!
And here's the crux of the matter. You present your opinion and theory as fact without any type of scriptural support whatsoever and then you take umbrage and call people names when they appeal to scripture to show that this theory is false.
They gotta do it, Doug. They have not a leg to stand on with regards to scripture.... so they must spin fairy tales to back their tradition....which then trumps scripture!
I know I know. 99% of the time I won't even attempt debate with rc's because we are coming from totally different reference points on what constitutes final authority.
You wrote:
“You are!
There you go lying again. Show me the exact post where I ever claimed “Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice”. When you fail miserably - and you will - what will you do then? Will you come up with another straw man?
“You claim that she was made sinless BEFORE Christ’s sacrifice.”
Now you’re saying the issue is “BEFORE” whereas a minute ago you were claiming I said Mary was sinless “WITHOUT” Christ. BEFORE and WITHOUT are two different words and represent two different things. Jesus’ sacrifice is - in case you didn’t know - so powerful that it transcends time and space. It produced the grace that saved Moses. And Adam. And Abraham. And Mary. Yes, Jesus’ grace saves people who walked the earth before Christ became man and died on the cross. If you’re saved, it’s because of Christ’s grace. The same grace that saved Moses - even though you’re seperated by 3,000 years. Didn’t you know that? God’s grace saves men in the past and the future. This is so for two reasons: 1) Christ’s sacrifice is so perfect and great, and 2) God sees all as present and He has no past or future.
“Without any scriptural proof or justification you then throw out a statement saying that the sacrifice occurred before it occurred to make Mary sinless.”
Another lie from you. I never once, NEVER ONCE, claimed that Christ’s sacrifice “occurred before it occurred to make Mary sinless.” I said this:
Post #256: Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.
Yet, now you are claiming I said something I never, EVER, said. Again, I don’t mind you disagreeing with orthodoxy, but why lie about what I said?
“Kind of like a weird back to the future episode. It’s like me saying that the action of me going to the store and buying eggs today made it possible for eggs to show up in my refrigerator 30 years ago. It’s nonsense.”
So Moses is damned? Abraham damned? Adam, David, Solomon - all damned? The simple fact is that Christ’s grace can be applied to anyone he chooses to do so. He is sovereign and all powerful. If you ran into Moses in heaven would you deny that he should be there simply because he died 1,000 BEFORE Christ died on the cross? Is it news to you that Christ’s grace helps those who lived BEFORE He became man?
“An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.”
No, a fact - taught by the Church whose authority to teach is attested to by scripture.
An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.
Again, so Moses is damned? Are you doubting this: “Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time.” Moses was BEFORE Christ’s death. Are you saying he is damned?
“An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.”
No, it’s a fact - taught by the Church whose authority to teach is attested to by scripture.
“An opinion and a theory totally unsupported by scripture.”
No, it’s a fact - taught by the Church whose authority to teach is attested to by scripture. And thanks for tacitly admitting that you lied when you said I was supporting this: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice?” The quotes I posted showed I said the exact opposite. You knew that to be the case so you simply ignored that fact that you lost that point and said they were unsupported by scripture even when that meant shooting your own argument in the foot. Gee, smart.
“This is interesting spin. Totally false, but an interesting glimpse into your character.”
Wow. Let’s look at this again. Here’s what you said I supported: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice?” You said I was. I pointed out the following: Post #269: Mary was always sinless, but she was made sinless by the grace won on the cross by Christ. Christ was Mary’s Savior too, only He saved her FIRST. Post #256: Mary was made sinless by Christ’s grace. That only resulted from His death. Christ’s death was so momentous a sacrifice that it effects souls before it and after it in time. Post #249: Christ saved Mary from sinfulness with His grace. Post #240: We are not making Mary sinless. CHRIST’S GRACE made Mary sinless.
You said - point blank - that I said Mary was saved WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice. I demonstrated that that was a flat out lie. Can you prove otherwise? No. I have repeatedly said AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED that Mary was saved by Christ’s sacrifice.
“And here’s the crux of the matter. You present your opinion and theory as fact without any type of scriptural support whatsoever and then you take umbrage and call people names when they appeal to scripture to show that this theory is false.”
Wrong. You lied about what I believe and what I said. Remember, I asked this: “Who here is claiming that Mary was sinless WITHOUT Christ’s sacrifice? Who?”
You responded with: “You are!” That is a flat out lie.
Christ saved Mary with His grace that He won on the cross. His sacrifice works both forward and backward in time. That’s how Moses and Adam and David can go to heaven as well as you and me.
That's a big "Ten/Four"! It does seem futile......but maybe now and then a lurker will open the book and read it because of something you said.
Exactly -in your case the final authority is YOU. In our case the final authority is the Church.
What book is that? Scripture? The book codified by the Catholic Church and the book that has been central to our worship for 2,000 years? The book that our separated brethren have been arguing about for over 500 years and still cant agree what it says?
[Acts 2:29-34] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.
[John 3:13][Acts 13:36][1 Timothy 6:14-16]
The canon was established by the Jews.....long before you folks showed up! Scripture had been read in Christian assemblies from the day the Apostles began to write it down. Your claim to canon responsibility is spurious. Frankly, I don't understand why you folks even attempt to defend that position. You don't pay any attention to scripture anyway!
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal. The word “lie” indicates the intent to deceive which is attributing motive, i.e. “making it personal.”
WRONG.
Rubber History texts don’t count.
Try 1600 years.
Many of them awful examples of any decent organization, much less Christianity.
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